Kia: OBD whatnow? We don't need that... (warning: evil curse words inside)

[phucheneh]

Other warning: Somewhat technical long-winded rant ahead. And yes, cursing.


I used to not have anything against Kia/Hyundai vehicles, but I'm trying to troubleshoot something right now that is changing my mind...

'08 Kia Rondo. Cranks, but won't start. Some idiot tried to put a fuel pump in it to fix it...yeah, no go. Maybe you should check the relay first, chief. I know it takes fifteen seconds and all, but making sure it turns on is a good first step before replacing a fuel pump...

But it's not just the fuel pump relay. Not a single thing in the engine fusebox turns on, other than the starter relay. All fuses are good. No communication with ECM through DLC.

So I find out about their technical resources, which are online and available to anyone who wants to look at them. No dealer or technician ID required. Gee, I guess they don't have much confidence in their dealer techs. Explains why whenever someone incompetent at a shop actually gets fired, I always hear later about how he's now working for the Kia dealer...

Anyway, so I start poring over any relevant information I can find.

And HOLY SHIT does Kia suck at technical info. They seem to be going the way of most manufacturers (but worse); put most of your work into trouble-trees for simplistic issues so you can hire more inept people who don't have common sense. Forget good reference information.

Their wiring diagrams are not complete. Rather than, say, show diagrams of entire wiring harnesses or entire systems, you just get a bunch of pages of little snippets of fucking play-skool diagrams relating to the area you selected. Best I can say is at least they do have pinouts/signal specs.

But I still can't find the info I really want...just one question: what turns the ECM/PCM on? I see which wires are power and ground, but none are ignition-switched. I see that there is an engine control relay...which is turned on by...the ECM. Okay...what tells it to turn that on again? And why can't I have an ignition switch diagram? Best I can tell, the ignition switch just activates the BCM...so I guess the BCM turns the ECM on...but there's no identified wire for that...is it through CAN bus? Hmmm...

I have to go back to just googling. I see all kinds of no-start problems, but nothing that mentions the complete deadness that I am seeing...I see plenty of bad fuel pumps, fuel pump/other relays, crank sensors...they get ignored because none of them would cause the ECM to not function...then I run across this lovely page, in which expert Kia techs instruct a guy with the same problem to do things like...check relays...check sensors...even check compression (wtf?). But the important part is at the end...

...the guy actually did fix it with a crank sensor. So putting that together with the previous incomprehensible crap, I think I've figured it out. Ignition switch triggers the BCM...BCM triggers the starter...cranking signal from the CKP triggers the basic functionality of the ECM? What the FUCK?

I haven't yet confirmed that this is the same issue by putting the part on it, because it seems too absurd. But I think this IS the crankshaft sensor failure I keep reading about...it's just that apparently no one bothered to check the proper things...just complaints of 'I have no spark' or 'I have no fuel' or whatever the first thing they found was...and someone said 'try a crank sensor.'

How the fuck can these cars even be sold in this country? Doesn't this violate OBD2 compatibility? An ECM input goes out and the programming dictates that the computer will no longer even allow diagnostic communication through generic OBD2? Has anyone worked on these shitheaps and seen this problem?

Cliffs: Suck my fucking dick, Kia. Go back to Korea and let us make our own shitty cars. At least I can fix them when they break without having to just randomly check every part on the car because you're SIXTEEN FUCKING YEARS behind the computer diagnostic curve.

Might want to ease up on the profanity ranting...

AT Moderator
Bartman39


edit: okay, I warned that there was cursing in the post in the thread title that had no cursing. I apologize for not following a rule that doesn't appear to exist. Please notify me of the curse word limit so I will be more careful in future posts. And no, that's not me being a smart-ass, that's a legitimate request. Don't cite me for profanity if you can't concretely define what constitutes 'too profane.'

While the occasional F... word is common place in a social forum a rant such as this has been discussed by the staff and it is a moderators discretion when it becomes excessive as in this case... In OT this is not a problem to a certain extent but even there lines can be drawn but remember there are many that come to the garage to learn and not read a rant that makes your point meaningless... The warning will stand and in the future take it to moderator discussions and do not post a reply in the post you have been warned about, this is considered a moderator callout and will result in more infractions...

AT Moderator
Bartman39



Thread closed pending questions answered by OP...

AT Moderator
Bartman39

 

[disappoint]

 

[phucheneh]

Exactly.

 

[power_hour]

If you put that much effort into fixing the fucking car as you did posting maybe it would be fixed? Just sayin...

 

[LTC8K6]

Not much for the ECM to do unless the engine is rotating, I guess.

 

[phucheneh]

If you put that much effort into fixing the fucking car as you did posting maybe it would be fixed? Just sayin...

Sorry for being able to write long posts quickly?

Plenty of effort into fixing the car, that's why it pisses me off. To chase your tail for a while because you a) know how things are supposed to work and b) can think analytically is a little backwards.

Someone please find me another modern vehicle with a fuel pump that doesn't prime. By that, I mean the FP relay (along with the rest of the engine electronics) is not switched on until you start cranking the engine. That's asinine.

 

[LTC8K6]

From reading around the net, KIA's prime just like other cars. Turn the key on, and the fuel pump should prime the system.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Theta_engine

It's a thoroughly modern engine using the latest engine management systems.

 

[phucheneh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Theta_engine

It's a thoroughly modern engine using the latest engine management systems.

Does that make it better that some of their cars are Model T's by comparison? I think that makes it worse.

At least 'American' cheap piles of crap still conform to the same standards as their more expensive cars. Never had these issues with a Chevrohatsu Aveo.

And yes, it appears to be 'as designed' that the fuel pump relay is not energized until the engine cranks. Basically, it would've costed them an extra half a cent to include a standard timed fuel pump prime, I guess, so they didn't do it. Just like they would've had to pay for an extra wire from the ignition switch to the ECM. But we'll never know for sure about this stuff because Kia won't publish the information.

I regret ever complaining about GM's. I don't want to drive them, but I'd much rather fix them.

 

[LTC8K6]

Does that make it better that some of their cars are Model T's by comparison? I think that makes it worse.

At least 'American' cheap piles of crap still conform to the same standards as their more expensive cars. Never had these issues with a Chevrohatsu Aveo.

And yes, it appears to be 'as designed' that the fuel pump relay is not energized until the engine cranks. Basically, it would've costed them an extra half a cent to include a standard timed fuel pump prime, I guess, so they didn't do it. Just like they would've had to pay for an extra wire from the ignition switch to the ECM. But we'll never know for sure about this stuff because Kia won't publish the information.

I regret ever complaining about GM's. I don't want to drive them, but I'd much rather fix them.

I'm certain it works just like nearly all other systems and primes when you turn the key on. When it's working, that is.

You can read accounts of people working on Rondos who say they can hear the fuel pump prime when they turn the key on.

Does it have the 2.4?

http://www.automd.com/recall/campaign_c72913/

 

[Vic Vega]

edit: okay, I warned that there was cursing in the post in the thread title that had no cursing. I apologize for not following a rule that doesn't appear to exist. Please notify me of the curse word limit so I will be more careful in future posts. And no, that's not me being a smart-ass, that's a legitimate request. Don't cite me for profanity if you can't concretely define what constitutes 'too profane.'

Private property. The folks who run the board are under no obligation to produce such a definition and can refuse you access for any reason they desire at any time. Welcome to real life.

In all seriousness, I hope you get things sorted with the Rondo. I think the Rondo is actually a useful vehicle unlike most wagon/crossovers these days. Surprised Kia stopped making it.

 

[Pulsar]

Don't believe, for a second, that stupid decisions are only made by Kia.

A domestic manufacturer who I will not mention uses capacitors on the ground leg of their wiring harness to improve radio reception. The capacitors are bolted to the engine. They are connected to the ground wire.... of the injectors. So when the single (tiny) ground wire going to the radio capacitor fails, it lands on the engine block. That, in turn, kills the fuel system of the vehicle.

Yeah.... troubleshooting that was fun, and confirming the failure mode at a dealership made my head do the jackie chan thing.

 

[sontakke]

Someone please find me another modern vehicle with a fuel pump that doesn't prime. By that, I mean the FP relay (along with the rest of the engine electronics) is not switched on until you start cranking the engine. That's asinine.

Look up Toyota Camry 4th gen [1997-2001] 2.2L engine wiring. If you want, I can provide you pointer the service manual. Just take my word for it that fuel pump does NOT prime.

 

[phucheneh]

Don't believe, for a second, that stupid decisions are only made by Kia.

A domestic manufacturer who I will not mention uses capacitors on the ground leg of their wiring harness to improve radio reception. The capacitors are bolted to the engine. They are connected to the ground wire.... of the injectors. So when the single (tiny) ground wire going to the radio capacitor fails, it lands on the engine block. That, in turn, kills the fuel system of the vehicle.

Yeah.... troubleshooting that was fun, and confirming the failure mode at a dealership made my head do the jackie chan thing.

Oh, no, I'm not exonerating any manufacturer. They do indeed all do dumb stuff- it's just that I'm usually not completely in the dark because said dumb thing goes against industry norm and removes the capability of using computerized diagnostics...leaving me to simply check everything, without any clue as to the real issue because their own technical information doesn't mention that they tried to reinvent (uninvent?) the wheel. Christ, they could've at least put a TSB out there- I mean, their own dealer techs seem to be lost on the issue.

sontakke - If that's true, I'm amazed. I just had never encountered such before. I mean, I could see it on an early EFI car, when nothing was standardized; but not a modern one.

Not calling you a liar or anything. But why would Toyota do that on that one model? Could mess up someone's no-start diagnosis, but at least you probably still get to have a powered up ECM.

 

[sontakke]

Absolutely, the ECM is powered up. At least Toyota did that one right. Not priming the pump until it gets crank signal is one of the reason that era Camry takes about a revolution (or two) of the starter crank before it catches. I have seen lots of stupid stuff done by manufacturers. Early eighties Honda used alternator output to keep carburetor from shutting off. This was Honda's way of avoiding a run away fuel leak in case of an accident. Unfortunately, that meant when you lost alternator, your engine died because of the lack of fuel! After owning 83 Prelude for over 250K, it stranded me twice when the alternator died.

 

[phucheneh]

Absolutely, the ECM is powered up. At least Toyota did that one right. Not priming the pump until it gets crank signal is one of the reason that era Camry takes about a revolution (or two) of the starter crank before it catches. I have seen lots of stupid stuff done by manufacturers. Early eighties Honda used alternator output to keep carburetor from shutting off. This was Honda's way of avoiding a run away fuel leak in case of an accident. Unfortunately, that meant when you lost alternator, your engine died because of the lack of fuel! After owning 83 Prelude for over 250K, it stranded me twice when the alternator died.

Alternator...carb...whatnow? Did Honda try the 'electronic carb' thing? I always thought that was just a GM experiment. To be fair, the latter gets a bad rap mostly from people not understanding their function and not setting them up right. I actually think a carb with PWM metering rods is kinda cool...is that pretty much what Honda did?

How did they ONLY power it with the alternator, though? I mean, the normal battery cable setup is alternator-starter-battery, meaning anything hooked in at any of those three sources will receive alternator output voltage when running, and battery voltage when not (or when the alt is toast).

Speaking of long crank times...when I think about it, I do remember a lot of older Japanese cars that normally cranked for a few seconds before starting. It makes sense that Kia would adopt an older Japanese design because...well, they do that.

Back to the [technical part of] the OP-

I was going to check the crank sensor before ordering it, but then it hit me- wasn't that drawn as a hall effect switch on the wiring diagram?

...yup. I was thinking of it as a pulse generator, which requires no power input. So where is it getting its 5v power source from? According to the wiring diagram...the engine control relay. That thing I mentioned wouldn't turn on, apparently because the engine wouldn't crank (edit: rather, the ECM thinks it's not cranking)...oh noes, catch 22 upside my face.

That made me doubt myself...then I realized that it was making no sense on more than one level...how is a 12v relay supplying power to a 5v sensor? Ugh, Kia's junk wiring diagrams strike again. At this point...I'm putting the sensor in it and seeing what happens. I'm done trying to make sense of it.

 

[sontakke]

Every car needs something so that if the engine stops running, the fuel supply needs to be stopped even when the ignition key is in the on position. Most of the engine management use crank/cam signal (aka tachometer pulse) to assert engine is running. The Honda of that era in their infinite wisdom decided that if alternator is not putting out the voltage, the engine is not spinning. They put a fuel shutoff solenoid inside those biatch dual side draft CV carburator. This gets overwritten during the crank.

You lost alternator; the battery light is solid so you know that. You start the car. It starts. The battery light is glowing at you. You put it in the gear and start releasing the clutch. The car starts moving few feet and then the fuel in the carburetor bowl runs out and the engine chokes to death. Rinse and Repeat

Remember Honda stayed with the carburetor lot longer than most other manufacturer. You should have seen the vacuum lines running around on that era of Honda!

 

[waffleironhead]

You seem pretty angry these days brblx... errr i mean phucheneh. Are things not going well for you?

Thread closed pending questions answered by OP...

AT Moderator
Bartman39

 

[BUTCH1]

Alternator...carb...whatnow? Did Honda try the 'electronic carb' thing? I always thought that was just a GM experiment. To be fair, the latter gets a bad rap mostly from people not understanding their function and not setting them up right. I actually think a carb with PWM metering rods is kinda cool...is that pretty much what Honda did?

How did they ONLY power it with the alternator, though? I mean, the normal battery cable setup is alternator-starter-battery, meaning anything hooked in at any of those three sources will receive alternator output voltage when running, and battery voltage when not (or when the alt is toast).

Speaking of long crank times...when I think about it, I do remember a lot of older Japanese cars that normally cranked for a few seconds before starting. It makes sense that Kia would adopt an older Japanese design because...well, they do that.

Back to the [technical part of] the OP-

I was going to check the crank sensor before ordering it, but then it hit me- wasn't that drawn as a hall effect switch on the wiring diagram?

...yup. I was thinking of it as a pulse generator, which requires no power input. So where is it getting its 5v power source from? According to the wiring diagram...the engine control relay. That thing I mentioned wouldn't turn on, apparently because the engine wouldn't crank (edit: rather, the ECM thinks it's not cranking)...oh noes, catch 22 upside my face.

That made me doubt myself...then I realized that it was making no sense on more than one level...how is a 12v relay supplying power to a 5v sensor? Ugh, Kia's junk wiring diagrams strike again. At this point...I'm putting the sensor in it and seeing what happens. I'm done trying to make sense of it.

I had an '82 Cutlass that had an electronic carb, F-ing nightmare, they were commonly used to meet emission standards, the minute FI became doable the "feedback" carb was phased out. Mine started puking black smoke (common for these carbs) when it malfunctioned, no problem, I'll just install a rebuilt I thought, wrong $500!, I bought a rebuild kit and did it myself, it ran better with the carb unplugged so that's how I left it.
Anyway as to your problem, can you have an assistant crank the car while you check for voltage at the pump?, if not present check for turn on signal to pump relay? hope this helps and good luck..