Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity

[JSt0rm]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

please take 20 minutes to watch this amazing video if you have not. I went to a horrible public school and resisted much of my teachings there and I feel this helped shape me for my present day career as a creative professional. This talk resonates with me so much because I feel as though I lived through and survived the public school system but unfortunately many don't. I dare you to invest 1/3rd of an hour to watch this.

 

[senseamp]

Let's face it, there are only creative jobs for so many creative types. Killing creativity is just part of preparing kids for the workforce where they will perform mindless tasks.

 

[MJinZ]

So... what kind of creative professional are you exactly?

And how many of those can we afford to have in our Economy exactly?

 

[StageLeft]

Let's face it, there are only creative jobs for so many creative types. Killing creativity is just part of preparing kids for the workforce where they will perform mindless tasks.

Some truth to that.

I actually went to a very good school, as far as schools can be good. After many years there it did a good number (by that I mean bad number) on my overall enjoyment of life, coping skills, confidence, ability to self-motivate. God I fvcked hating school to the bone. Only as an adult have I finally learned that I actually do enjoy learning things sometimes simply to understand them more. But in school it was a constant grind. Also a lot of time wasted on useless sh*t such as secondary language and obsessively studying fictional literature written in the 19th century and earlier (dickens, scarlet letter, etc. all epically terrible piece of sh*t that should be ripped out of schools post haste).

 

[MJinZ]

Some truth to that.

I actually went to a very good school, as far as schools can be good. After many years there it did a good number (by that I mean bad number) on my overall enjoyment of life, coping skills, confidence, ability to self-motivate. God I fvcked hating school to the bone. Only as an adult have I finally learned that I actually do enjoy learning things sometimes simply to understand them more. But in school it was a constant grind. Also a lot of time wasted on useless sh*t such as secondary language and obsessively studying fictional literature written in the 19th century and earlier (dickens, scarlet letter, etc. all epically terrible piece of sh*t that should be ripped out of schools post haste).

Education is more than just learning skills. Learning "useless" things are for the sake of mental and social enrichment, which is what makes people - not robots. Thank your education.

 

[senseamp]

So... what kind of creative professional are you exactly?

And how many of those can we afford to have in our Economy exactly?

I am an engineer, born and raised If I was raised as a "creative" type, I don't think I would be happy holding down an engineering job. I'd probably be an "artist" working as a barista.

 

[StageLeft]

Education is more than just learning skills. Learning "useless" things are for the sake of mental and social enrichment, which is what makes people - not robots. Thank your education.

That's ridiculous. There is an infinite amount of information--meaningful information--enough that nobody could ever master all of it. I could have spent literally years spending more time on science, for example, than the writing mannerisms of some fvck wad 18th century author talking about something of no interest whatsoever to anybody since, well, the 18th century. Nonetheless, my main point is that all schools rely far too much on slowly-changing curriculum heavily devoid of the elements necessary to encourage a love of learning among students.

So, I hated school. Some people didn't, like my wife. Far too many people do hate school for us to not conclude there is something seriously wrong with the entire way it is pushed.

 

[MJinZ]

That's ridiculous. There is an infinite amount of information--meaningful information--enough that nobody could ever master all of it. I could have spent literally years spending more time on science, for example, than the writing mannerisms of some fvck wad 18th century author talking about something of no interest whatsoever to anybody since, well, the 18th century. Nonetheless, my main point is that all schools rely far too much on slowly-changing curriculum heavily devoid of the elements necessary to encourage a love of learning among students.

So, I hated school. Some people didn't, like my wife. Far too many people do hate school for us to not conclude there is something seriously wrong with the entire way it is pushed.

What's ridiculous about it? This is general education, that's the whole point, is to learn about as many different kinds of things that will foster a specific interest.

We have something called Colleges, Universities, Masters and Doctorate programs for any given discipline.

 

[StageLeft]

What's ridiculous about it? This is general education, that's the whole point, is to learn about as many different kinds of things that will foster a specific interest.

We have something called Colleges, Universities, Masters and Doctorate programs for any given discipline.

Schools spend an inordinate amount of time on irrelevance.

 

[JSt0rm]

So... what kind of creative professional are you exactly?

And how many of those can we afford to have in our Economy exactly?

I work in the film industry, but creativity can take many forms not just artistic or for entertainment. Did you watch the talk?

 

[JSt0rm]

lol did anyone watch it?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Let's face it, there are only creative jobs for so many creative types. Killing creativity is just part of preparing kids for the workforce where they will perform mindless tasks.

So... what kind of creative professional are you exactly?
And how many of those can we afford to have in our Economy exactly?

Schools spend an inordinate amount of time on irrelevance.

You all suffer from the same very sad condition. As I've said many, many times; work isn't important in life - it's what get's in the way of what's important in life. Society is an illusion, economy a lie.

What's wrong is that people are trying to create workers, and drones, and perpetuate everything wrong and bad with the system and the world instead of focusing on beauty and creativity and enjoyment and individuality which are the absolute pivotal fulcrum of life itself.

Breadth of knowledge is not irrelevant, it's how we expand our minds and grow as individuals and a collective. It's how we evolve individually, and progress as a culture. Nothing exists in a vacuum and you'll find that work in one area will aid you in other areas in ways you aren't even aware of. The time I spent in math helped my history as much as my computer science. The time in philosophy helped me in chemistry. My english was vital to pretty much every single field I've ever studied. ALL learning improves us. ALL learning.

I weep for ANY loss of broad, classical, liberal education. We cannot exist as a people without it.

 

[MJinZ]

You all suffer from the same very sad condition. As I've said many, many times; work isn't important in life - it's what get's in the way of what's important in life. Society is an illusion, economy a lie.

What's wrong is that people are trying to create workers, and drones, and perpetuate everything wrong and bad with the system and the world instead of focusing on beauty and creativity and enjoyment and individuality which are the absolute pivotal fulcrum of life itself.

Breadth of knowledge is not irrelevant, it's how we expand our minds and grow as individuals and a collective. It's how we evolve individually, and progress as a culture. Nothing exists in a vacuum and you'll find that work in one area will aid you in other areas in ways you aren't even aware of. The time I spent in math helped my history as much as my computer science. The time in philosophy helped me in chemistry. My english was vital to pretty much every single field I've ever studied. ALL learning improves us. ALL learning.

I weep for ANY loss of broad, classical, liberal education. We cannot exist as a people without it.

Uh, that was my point as well (did you not read my other posts?).

However, work is not at all unimportant. Work, in its many forms, give a people purpose and a type of real tangible value.

If you were a millionaire and had no true work, you would not a be happy person.

 

[LumbergTech]

Uh, that was my point as well (did you not read my other posts?).

However, work is not at all unimportant. Work, in its many forms, give a people purpose and a type of real tangible value.

If you were a millionaire and had no true work, you would not a be happy person.

yea , i agree.

work is very important but it is often given too much importance

 

[JSt0rm]

yea , i agree.

work is very important but it is often given too much importance

but we can find work that excites us. I guess that is the point. Each one of us as a child has gifts beyond doing calculus or sorting a paper stack. These skills while important are losing their importance due to global markets. What is left is our abilities to think creatively about our problems and finding good solutions. This is beyond what I do (making cool things for movies) and more about how we as a country compete in the world.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Uh, that was my point as well (did you not read my other posts?).

However, work is not at all unimportant. Work, in its many forms, give a people purpose and a type of real tangible value.

If you were a millionaire and had no true work, you would not a be happy person.

I apologize, I did totally misunderstand where you were going with that.

I guess we need to establish a clear distinction between 'work' and a 'job'. I used work in my statement, but what I meant was jobs. Work, can be self-improvement, feeding the hungry, being a good father, collecting cards, playing games, traveling the world...whatever you love can be your work. A 'job' is something you do to earn money. Even if you manage to enjoy your job on some level, if you wouldn't keep doing it for free then it's utterly meaningless as a life pursuit.

Work can be good, and is entirely personal. Jobs are a necessity, but they are totally without merit and should never hold importance for an individual. That doesn't mean you do badly at your job...only that you don't place any importance on it.

 

[JSt0rm]

Even if you manage to enjoy your job on some level, if you wouldn't keep doing it for free then it's utterly meaningless as a life pursuit.

What is amazing is I would do my job for free they just happen to pay me :sneaky:

 

[PrinceofWands]

What is amazing is I would do my job for free they just happen to pay me :sneaky:

And that works for some very very few people.

Most people are unable to find a job in their passions, and sometimes there ARE no jobs relating to said passion.

For those people you have to get any old job just to survive, but invest nothing into it. Instead, keep focus on yourself and your loves.

 

[StageLeft]

You all suffer from the same very sad condition. As I've said many, many times; work isn't important in life - it's what get's in the way of what's important in life. Society is an illusion, economy a lie.

What's wrong is that people are trying to create workers, and drones, and perpetuate everything wrong and bad with the system and the world instead of focusing on beauty and creativity and enjoyment and individuality which are the absolute pivotal fulcrum of life itself.

Breadth of knowledge is not irrelevant, it's how we expand our minds and grow as individuals and a collective. It's how we evolve individually, and progress as a culture. Nothing exists in a vacuum and you'll find that work in one area will aid you in other areas in ways you aren't even aware of. The time I spent in math helped my history as much as my computer science. The time in philosophy helped me in chemistry. My english was vital to pretty much every single field I've ever studied. ALL learning improves us. ALL learning.

I weep for ANY loss of broad, classical, liberal education. We cannot exist as a people without it.

You missed the part where I said After many years there it did a good number (by that I mean bad number) on my overall enjoyment of life, coping skills, confidence, ability to self-motivate. and some fvck wad 18th century author talking about something of no interest whatsoever to anybody since, well, the 18th century. Most of the material in English class for me was not relevant to me or any other student. A late 20th century student by his nature has no interest in the toils of an 1860 smelter. School needs to adapt better to the students. Why, for example, was the newest book we studied written decades earlier? Catcher in the Rye, not surprisingly, one of the few books i read in school I actually read (the rest I used Coles Notes except for maybe 1-2 exceptions. No way was I going to read that sh*t, not then not now, not ever).

I am not just talking about ability to work within our economy. For me school was in many ways an intellectually traumatic experience that quite literally made me forget my love for learning, something that took years to get back, only after the wounds of its monotony started to scab over. I believe I hated it more than most, but not more than many.

A huge upshot of hating school so much is that I have no nostalgia for it. I love being an adult and feel I thus have decades of being one vs only 1-1.5 decades of school, now past

 

[StageLeft]

Most people are unable to find a job in their passions, and sometimes there ARE no jobs relating to said passion.

For those people you have to get any old job just to survive, but invest nothing into it. Instead, keep focus on yourself and your loves.

That is how I live but I do wish I had a passion for work. I know most people don't, even among professions such as medical profession (I actually spoke to a doctor about this a month back and he felt like most doctors he knew liked their jobs decently but none particularly had a passion for them).

 

[JSt0rm]

And that works for some very very few people.

Most people are unable to find a job in their passions, and sometimes there ARE no jobs relating to said passion.

it does not escape me how lucky I am

but more on point...

We do need a quantum shift in how we teach our kids. Engineers and professors are nice people but how many engineers can be replaced in developing nations with lower cost "middle class" workers? Thats not a huge hurtle for global corporations.

 

[StageLeft]

OK, I actually watched this now. It's very good. He is a bit heavy on anecdotes but that does make it interesting, although light on data, but his arguments are hard to refute.

 

[PrinceofWands]

You missed the part where I said After many years there it did a good number (by that I mean bad number) on my overall enjoyment of life, coping skills, confidence, ability to self-motivate. and some fvck wad 18th century author talking about something of no interest whatsoever to anybody since, well, the 18th century. Most of the material in English class for me was not relevant to me or any other student. A late 20th century student by his nature has no interest in the toils of an 1860 smelter. School needs to adapt better to the students. Why, for example, was the newest book we studied written decades earlier? Catcher in the Rye, not surprisingly, one of the few books i read in school I actually read (the rest I used Coles Notes except for maybe 1-2 exceptions. No way was I going to read that sh*t, not then not now, not ever).

I am not just talking about ability to work within our economy. For me school was in many ways an intellectually traumatic experience that quite literally made me forget my love for learning, something that took years to get back, only after the wounds of its monotony started to scab over. I believe I hated it more than most, but not more than many.

A huge upshot of hating school so much is that I have no nostalgia for it. I love being an adult and feel I thus have decades of being one vs only 1-1.5 decades of school, now past

Reading this reminds me of the Dane Cook routine about the one friend that reads really esoteric stuff, like the history of the copy machine. His friend is fascinated by it, and its implications for modern life while Dane despises it with a passion.

Those books that you hate have three vital components that you must grasp in order to make reading them relevant.

1. Use of the English language. Literature, at it's most basic level, in an exercise in artistic expression. If you leave out the metaphors and themes and everything else, the basic linguistic structure is the same as a sonata, or an oil painting, or a marble sculpture. Therefore one purpose of literature is as example of language use, and the admiration thereof. This creates people who value language, and will utilize it properly for communication, or mere expression. This increases our efficiency, enjoyment, and compatibility.

2. Shared experience. A culture (rather a school, state, nation, or planet) is made up of shared experiences and understandings. Take the Star Trek episode Darmok where they encounter a race that speaks only in metaphor. The words are all English, but because they lack a shared experience there can be no communication. A more modern example would be nom nom. Because you share in certain cultural aspects if someone asks you to go nom, you can make an accurate reply. While culture is somewhat temporal (existing in the moment differently than all other moments), it is also cumulative (building on all previous cultures). For example, you cannot share a common experience about current race relations in America without understanding race relations in the 60s, but also just after the civil war, before the civil war, etc. Taking any one of those cultures alone cannot explain the current situation. This is what books do: they provide a common shared experience that the members of a culture share, and use to function in society as well as build understanding and evolve to greater accomplishments.

3. Metaphor. Many (probably most) books are making a point. They're arguing something, or reflecting something. There is nothing new in the universe. Every thought you have has been thought before, everything you've experienced has been experienced before, etc. We understand what goes on inside ourselves, and in the world around us, by studying the same feelings and events in others. In a recent thread here there was discussion about increasing requirements for citizenship. Pretty much everything said in that thread was covered in Starship Troopers in one way or another. Reading that book causes a person to wrestle with citizenship and duty and identity in a way that's enjoyable and manageable. Read a few more and you being to develop a broad picture of how different thought patterns about a subject relate. That enables a person to cast a meaningful vote at the polls because they have an understanding, and an opinion, about the issue.

 

[DougoMan]

The whole purpose of school is to turn you into an automaton.

 

[MJinZ]

Reading this reminds me of the Dane Cook routine about the one friend that reads really esoteric stuff, like the history of the copy machine. His friend is fascinated by it, and its implications for modern life while Dane despises it with a passion.

Those books that you hate have three vital components that you must grasp in order to make reading them relevant.

1. Use of the English language. Literature, at it's most basic level, in an exercise in artistic expression. If you leave out the metaphors and themes and everything else, the basic linguistic structure is the same as a sonata, or an oil painting, or a marble sculpture. Therefore one purpose of literature is as example of language use, and the admiration thereof. This creates people who value language, and will utilize it properly for communication, or mere expression. This increases our efficiency, enjoyment, and compatibility.

2. Shared experience. A culture (rather a school, state, nation, or planet) is made up of shared experiences and understandings. Take the Star Trek episode Darmok where they encounter a race that speaks only in metaphor. The words are all English, but because they lack a shared experience there can be no communication. A more modern example would be nom nom. Because you share in certain cultural aspects if someone asks you to go nom, you can make an accurate reply. While culture is somewhat temporal (existing in the moment differently than all other moments), it is also cumulative (building on all previous cultures). For example, you cannot share a common experience about current race relations in America without understanding race relations in the 60s, but also just after the civil war, before the civil war, etc. Taking any one of those cultures alone cannot explain the current situation. This is what books do: they provide a common shared experience that the members of a culture share, and use to function in society as well as build understanding and evolve to greater accomplishments.

3. Metaphor. Many (probably most) books are making a point. They're arguing something, or reflecting something. There is nothing new in the universe. Every thought you have has been thought before, everything you've experienced has been experienced before, etc. We understand what goes on inside ourselves, and in the world around us, by studying the same feelings and events in others. In a recent thread here there was discussion about increasing requirements for citizenship. Pretty much everything said in that thread was covered in Starship Troopers in one way or another. Reading that book causes a person to wrestle with citizenship and duty and identity in a way that's enjoyable and manageable. Read a few more and you being to develop a broad picture of how different thought patterns about a subject relate. That enables a person to cast a meaningful vote at the polls because they have an understanding, and an opinion, about the issue.

I agree mostly, though...

3) There are novel thoughts... that's evident by human progression through time, though admittedly truly "new" thoughts are rare.