Kashmir's independence

[busydude]

Hindustan = Land of Hindus.

So?

beloved patriot in my native language means Dirty, in that context Pakistan means Land of the Filthy.

The name Hindu originated from river Indus(Sindhu in Sanskrit). Guess, who coined the term Hindu? It was Persians(Now present Iraq) and Arabs.

It is usually known as Bharat(Bharat Ganarajya) among Hindus. Technically Bharat includes the whole of Indian Sub-continent.

State of Muslims in India = Worse than the untouchables. Well documented. At least Muslims in Pakistan are bad off (if they are) because of it being a "dictator"/"terrorist"/"throw in another moniker here". Shouldnt be any excuse for "secular" India.

Lol. I do not deny there is religious tension in India. If you have huge populations, with diverse religions, living together in a country, there are bound to be some issues. You are a Muslim majority state, can you guarantee the safety of Shia's, Ahmadiyya's and people who follow Sufism(I come from a city with high Urdu speaking population in India and I absolutely enjoy Sufi songs/chants)?

 

[Vonkhan]

Hindustan = Land of Hindus.

State of Muslims in India = Worse than the untouchables. Well documented.

Are you retarded or just talking out of your ass? Nearly every Indian Muslim will tell you that they're happy to be Indian and not beloved patriot. Plenty of Muslims in every industry. I could go on how the last President was a Muslim, probably the most popular Indian president ever - same dude was responsible for India's missile program ... or Aziz Premji, heading Wipro, one of the largest IT companies ... or the COs of the elite Parachute Reg. being a Muslim, let alone the number of Muslim actors in Bollywood, etc etc.

Idiots like you and DesiPower should be locked in a padded room together

 

[DesiPower]

Hindustan = Land of Hindus.

State of Muslims in India = Worse than the untouchables. Well documented. *Snip*

Pakistan will not accept them either, if they go there they will be discriminated as Mujahirs and be denied jobs and lands and housing and everything else you accuse India of. Stop posting crap you doofus

 

[Taejin]

pretty obvious routan is drinking the koolaid. lols. must be pretty galling to see that the reason why india is succeeding is because they're culturally dominated by a non-backward religion.

or maybe its just a funny mix of the ME and Islam that turns it into crap. Cause it sure as hell ain't that bad in primarily islamic SE asian countries.

 

[Vonkhan]

pretty obvious routan is drinking the koolaid. lols. must be pretty galling to see that the reason why india is succeeding is because they're culturally dominated by a non-backward religion.

or maybe its just a funny mix of the ME and Islam that turns it into crap. Cause it sure as hell ain't that bad in primarily islamic SE asian countries.

Allow me ...

Sufi Islam is the pre-dominant form of Islam in India and Bangladesh. It's a very moderate form of the religion, relying mainly on mysticism. It USED to have a lot of followers in pak.

Wahabi Islam, the militant form of Islam - first popularized in Saudi - has made massive inroads into pak since Gen. Zia and the CIA used it to get the Russians outta Afghanistan.

Even though India has the world's third largest Muslim population, it's remained immune to any form of militancy, with the exception of Kashmir. Even the Kashmir militancy relied heavily on jihadis from pak, Afghanistan, etc.

 

[cirrrocco]

Allow me ...

Sufi Islam is the pre-dominant form of Islam in India and Bangladesh. It's a very moderate form of the religion, relying mainly on mysticism. It USED to have a lot of followers in pak.

Wahabi Islam, the militant form of Islam - first popularized in Saudi - has made massive inroads into pak since Gen. Zia and the CIA used it to get the Russians outta Afghanistan.

Even though India has the world's third largest Muslim population, it's remained immune to any form of militancy, with the exception of Kashmir. Even the Kashmir militancy relied heavily on jihadis from pak, Afghanistan, etc.

And Routan, that's from a Indian muslim.

 

[santz]

LOL, where the hell did china come in from, they have never asked any part of kashmir to be given to them! Pakistan just keeps sending over terrorists to kashmir to back the militants over there. Apparently the muslims there are not happy that they are being ruled by a government which is not following quran!

 

[routan]

Are you retarded or just talking out of your ass? Nearly every Indian Muslim will tell you that they're happy to be Indian and not beloved patriot. Plenty of Muslims in every industry. I could go on how the last President was a Muslim, probably the most popular Indian president ever - same dude was responsible for India's missile program ... or Aziz Premji, heading Wipro, one of the largest IT companies ... or the COs of the elite Parachute Reg. being a Muslim, let alone the number of Muslim actors in Bollywood, etc etc.

Idiots like you and DesiPower should be locked in a padded room together

Vonkhan, I am neither retarded, nor talking out of my ass. I stated in Post http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30461423&postcount=100 that if the Muslims in Pakistan are bad off, it can be attributed to Pakistan being a "terrorist/dictator/whatever moniker you want to throw". The bad state of affairs of Muslims in India is well-documented. Even by the government of India.

Just because you throw a few examples of successul Muslims in India does not negate the state of the millions who are in terrible state. With 10%-15% of the population of India being Muslims, it is only a matter of probability that thousands and thousands of Muslims amongst the millions would be successful.

 

[routan]

So?

beloved patriot in my native language means Dirty, in that context Pakistan means Land of the Filthy.

The name Hindu originated from river Indus(Sindhu in Sanskrit). Guess, who coined the term Hindu? It was Persians(Now present Iraq) and Arabs.

It is usually known as Bharat(Bharat Ganarajya) among Hindus. Technically Bharat includes the whole of Indian Sub-continent.

Lol. I do not deny there is religious tension in India. If you have huge populations, with diverse religions, living together in a country, there are bound to be some issues. You are a Muslim majority state, can you guarantee the safety of Shia's, Ahmadiyya's and people who follow Sufism(I come from a city with high Urdu speaking population in India and I absolutely enjoy Sufi songs/chants)?

yasasvy, without getting into a disagreement, or tat-for-tat posts, the point I was trying to make was that the perception of India by far is that of a Hindu or a Hindu dominant country, just as Pakistan is considered as a Muslim or a "terrorist" country. What beloved patriot means in your native language is pointless to mention. Hindu does not mean anything but Hindu in any language.

I am not a Muslim majority state. I am in the United States. I can agree to the point that religious tensions agree in all countries with diverse populations as you also attest that there are religious tensions in India.

And that goes further to my point... everyone raises finger at countries with Muslim majority, such as Pakistan, and branding it with commonly used words. But India is a "secular/tolerant/progressive/etc, etc" nation. What is India's excuse? Or conversely, why is it ONLY the fault of Muslim majority nations where diverse populations does bring about tensions?

 

[Vonkhan]

Vonkhan, I am neither retarded, nor talking out of my ass. I stated in Post http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30461423&postcount=100 that if the Muslims in Pakistan are bad off, it can be attributed to Pakistan being a "terrorist/dictator/whatever moniker you want to throw". The bad state of affairs of Muslims in India is well-documented. Even by the government of India.

Just because you throw a few examples of successul Muslims in India does not negate the state of the millions who are in terrible state. With 10%-15% of the population of India being Muslims, it is only a matter of probability that thousands and thousands of Muslims amongst the millions would be successful.

Please present your "well-documented" sources that Indian Muslims are worse off than Dalits (untouchables)

 

[busydude]

yasasvy, without getting into a disagreement, or tat-for-tat posts, the point I was trying to make was that the perception of India by far is that of a Hindu or a Hindu dominant country, just as Pakistan is considered as a Muslim or a "terrorist" country. What beloved patriot means in your native language is pointless to mention. Hindu does not mean anything but Hindu in any language.

My apologies, I got a bit carried over. Thanks for being patient with me.

Your perception of India is borked and I was trying to correct that. India is a Hindu dominant Country, that does not mean India = Hindu.

Just because you throw a few examples of successul Muslims in India does not negate the state of the millions who are in terrible state. With 10%-15% of the population of India being Muslims, it is only a matter of probability that thousands and thousands of Muslims amongst the millions would be successful.

This is the thing that irks me. You guys are fed and nurtured in false propaganda.
It took Pakistani Government more than a month after Mumbai attacks, to accept the fact that the terrorists were from Pakistan. India has been yelling like crazy in the UN and the to the International Community that Pakistan is harboring terrorists. It took the international community 30 years to accept that fact.

 

[routan]

This is the thing that irks me. You guys are fed and nurtured in false propaganda.
It took Pakistani Government more than a month after Mumbai attacks, to accept the fact that the terrorists were from Pakistan. India has been yelling like crazy in the UN and the to the International Community that Pakistan is harboring terrorists. It took the international community 30 years to accept that fact.

Yes, India is a Hindu dominant country - which is what I was trying to indicate. So we are in agreement.

From what I remember, the Indian media immediately blamed Pakistan. As with any investigation, there is due process. Sometimes the process can take months. Also, it should be obvious to anyone that no government would like to be black marked by its citizens.

Regardless, if I recall correctly, it was the media in Pakistan which brought to light that the terrorists were indeed from Pakistan, and the government eventually did accept. Both of these events should be seen as positive by the Indian populace - rather people like yourself flaunt the idea and perception that it is people of Pakistan that are fed and nurtured in false propaganda. 😵

Also, I have no idea why you threw the above post in, in reply to my post about Muslims in India 😕

 

[DesiPower]

*Snip*

Also, I have no idea why you threw the above post in, in reply to my post about Muslims in India 😕

He forgot you had copyright on Trolling, sue him 😀

 

[routan]

Please present your "well-documented" sources that Indian Muslims are worse off than Dalits (untouchables)

All I had to do was google;

Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/01/AR2007110101035.html

Consider these figures: Fifty-two percent of Muslim men are unemployed, compared with 47 percent of dalit men. Unemployment among Muslim women is 91 percent, compared with 77 percent among dalit women. Forty-eight percent of Muslims older than 46 can't read or write. Though they make up 11 percent of the population, Muslims account for 40 percent of the prison population. They hold only 4.9 percent of government jobs and only 3.2 percent of the jobs in the country's security agencies

References to Indian Government report found here
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/dec2006/indi-d30.shtmlhttp://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/11177/

 

[DesiPower]

All I had to do was google;

Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/01/AR2007110101035.html



References to Indian Government report found here
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/dec2006/indi-d30.shtmlhttp://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/11177/

Well... if you are still memorizing Quran in madrasa when other are already learning calculus... well... you do the math... Oh wait... nm

 

[busydude]

Yes, India is a Hindu dominant country - which is what I was trying to indicate. So we are in agreement.

There is nothing to agree about it is a fact.

Also, I have no idea why you threw the above post in, in reply to my post about Muslims in India

That's because Vonkhan answered that question and you plainly ignored it.

I can give numerous examples where Muslims incited fear and chaos in the country. There is nothing you or I can do about it. The point I don't agree with is the way you believe that among a population of 1.1 billion, only Muslims are being marginalized.

You mentioned is your first thread you created that you came to America to enjoy the freedom it gave. I can safely tell that you can and will enjoy the same freedom in India too. You just seem so dense and are not willing to accept this fact.

I have no problems in accepting the problems that India is facing right now. At least, the situation is improving.

What you don't accept is that Muslims are well off in India, because of the fact that it is a Hindu Majority nation.

You need to have a clear understanding of the situation, which you sadly lack.

From what I remember, the Indian media immediately blamed Pakistan. As with any investigation, there is due process. Sometimes the process can take months. Also, it should be obvious to anyone that no government would like to be black marked by its citizens. Regardless, if I recall correctly, it was the media in Pakistan which brought to light that the terrorists were indeed from Pakistan, and the government eventually did accept. Both of these events should be seen as positive by the Indian populace - rather people like yourself flaunt the idea and perception that it is people of Pakistan that are fed and nurtured in false propaganda.

Oh please, I am not going to argue on this issue. If you have some time please watch the documentary titled "Terror in Mumbai," Narrated by Fareed Zakaria and educate your self.

Now if you will excuse me, we have great weather today in Illinois and I am off to play some cricket.

 

[routan]

There is nothing to agree about it is a fact.

That's because Vonkhan answered that question and you plainly ignored it.

I can give numerous examples where Muslims incited fear and chaos in the country. There is nothing you or I can do about it. The point I don't agree with is the way you believe that among a population of 1.1 billion, only Muslims are being marginalized.

You mentioned is your first thread you created that you came to America to enjoy the freedom it gave. I can safely tell that you can and will enjoy the same freedom in India too. You just seem so dense and are not willing to accept this fact.

I have no problems in accepting the problems that India is facing right now. At least, the situation is improving.

What you don't accept is that Muslims are well off in India, because of the fact that it is a Hindu Majority nation.

You need to have a clear understanding of the situation, which you sadly lack.



Oh please, I am not going to argue on this issue. If you have some time please watch the documentary titled "Terror in Mumbai," Narrated by Fareed Zakaria and educate your self.

Now if you will excuse me, we have great weather today in Illinois and I am off to play some cricket.

yasasvy, you deflect. You can give me numerous incidents to Muslims inciting violence and you give that as a reason to their bad state of affairs to the point they are worse off than the untouchables? I have provided references in Post 114. Because YOU choose to ignore Indian governments own reports, it is apparent you are the ignorant person in this conversation.

If I have to improve the situation of Muslims improving on your own word, I think I'll pass. 🙄

I have replied to Vonkhan's posts (post #108, post #114). He replied to in post #110. I did not ignore his posts. Almost every post by Indians is a rubbish accusation.

 

[bfdd]

When the saucers land the world will suddenly all become one race.

Thanks for confirming my lunacy because I actually believe the same.

 

[TheWiseOne]

god damn, religion sucks. two countries with the same people, similar culture, similar language, similar everything separated only by 2 absurd religions.

Oh please, people will find a way to tap into tribal thinking (us vs. them) fo any reason...examples Yankee vs. Red Sox Fans, Black vs. White, etc.

Greed is the name of the game

It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.
John Steinbeck

 

[Vonkhan]

All I had to do was google;

Consider these figures: Fifty-two percent of Muslim men are unemployed, compared with 47 percent of dalit men. Unemployment among Muslim women is 91 percent, compared with 77 percent among dalit women. Forty-eight percent of Muslims older than 46 can't read or write. Though they make up 11 percent of the population, Muslims account for 40 percent of the prison population. They hold only 4.9 percent of government jobs and only 3.2 percent of the jobs in the country's security agencies

Routan, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I'm very familiar with the Sachar Committe Report - I think you should read it yourself before blindly copy/pasting from another article.

The primary reason why Dalits' unemployment figures are lower is because they have employment quotas assigned to them. If a Muslim and a Dalit apply for the same job - the Dalit will probably get it simply based off the quota that is reserved for Dalits / schedule caste / schedule tribe system.

The %age figures for govt job and sec. agencies are also misleading. Sikhs make up nearly 20% of the sec. agencies while they are only 2% of the population. South Indian upper caste is overwhelming represented in govt jobs. The saying "running from pillar to post" has popularly become "running from Pillai to Pillai" with Pillai being a very common name in South Indian upper caste communities. Hell, if you look at Bollywood, most of the names in the credits are Muslim - does this mean that the Indian film industry is anti-Hindu and Pro-Islam?

Education is always been the bane of Indian Muslims - no denying that - and I have even mentioned that previously. Illiteracy, poverty, crime is a vicious cycle for Indian Muslims that is only now being slowly broken.

 

[The Green Bean]

If this were a comparision between India and Pakistan, I've seen quite a bit of India. I stay there for a few weeks every year. I will try to be as unbiased as possible from a common man's perspective.

Indian institutions are as corrupt as Pakistani ones. Of the few times I've been stopped by traffic police in India, I've always been let off by giving a small favour. As a matter of fact, all government institutions which I have come in contact with including the CID and immigration officers are easy to buy. We have the same problem in Pakistan. It is hard to decide which side is better at it but since I've not worked or studied in India I can not comment from experience. However, friends and cousins confidently flaunt their skills at their money doing any work. It may as well be easier to bribe in India.

This maybe a no-brainer but Mumbai city feels a lot safer than Karachi. Karachi at times feels like a war zone. Today, a major party's deputy leader was murdered in London (probably murdered by his own because of differences with the leader) and Karachi was at a standstill. All markets and even petrol pumps were closed.

For entertainment, I'd think both cities would be at par with the absence of any decent cinemas in Karachi. As far as boutiques, and restaurants are concerned, both have their unique styles. Mumbai does feel a bit bigger with many more hotels and tourists to be seen. The security situation over the past few decades have really hurt us.

The roads here are definately better. Much better. Even outside the cities on the motorways and highways I think our roads are better. The Mumbai-Pune expressway is a good road, but it has already started aging. The highways linking Islamabad to Lahore, Peshawar and other cities are in my opinion of a higher standard.

Railways? The Indian railway system is light years ahead. I've never actually been on a Pakistani train but from what I hear they are outdated and even dangerous. The railways minister here said that before boarding a train, pray to God. Such is the situation of the railways here. Indian railways are really good but pale in comparison to U.K, and China. They still feel like a 3rd world system.

I find Karachi, Lahore, Multan and Islamabad much cleaner than the Indian cities I've visited. Mumbai's slums are the worst in the world. Most of the city stinks. Karachi has another problem. Air pollution. The transport mafia is so strong, a ban on black-smoke emitting had to be revoked. But Mumbai is a pain to drive in. Traffic and honking, along with manual laborers pulling carts is a nuisance.

Racism and ethnic tension if prevalent everywhere in both countries. It's a shame really.

 

[RabidMongoose]

For entertainment, I'd think both cities would be at par with the absence of any decent cinemas in Karachi. As far as boutiques, and restaurants are concerned, both have their unique styles. Mumbai does feel a bit bigger with many more hotels and tourists to be seen. The security situation over the past few decades have really hurt us.

Do Pakistani cities have much of a night life? Bars, etc.?

 

[busydude]

Indian institutions are as corrupt as Pakistani ones. Of the few times I've been stopped by traffic police in India, I've always been let off by giving a small favour. As a matter of fact, all government institutions which I have come in contact with including the CID and immigration officers are easy to buy. We have the same problem in Pakistan. It is hard to decide which side is better at it but since I've not worked or studied in India I can not comment from experience. However, friends and cousins confidently flaunt their skills at their money doing any work. It may as well be easier to bribe in India.

Agreed.

Racism and ethnic tension if prevalent everywhere in both countries. It's a shame really.

Agreed on this one too.

Do Pakistani cities have much of a night life? Bars, etc.?

Alcohol is illiegal

 

[The Green Bean]

Do Pakistani cities have much of a night life? Bars, etc.?

Since alcohol is illegal we don't have any public bars or clubs. We have a different kind of nightlife. Computer gaming, street cricket under lights, people visit parks and beaches. But nothing like what would qualify as "night life." The elite class do have private parties with alcohol but they are rare.

We do have music concerts and ghazal gatherings which last all night long. We are still a very conservative society even in cities and I like that.

One good thing for the average ATer here is blazing fast internet speeds. I have a 5Mbit connection and I'm paying $40 for it. One ISP is even offering 6Mbit for $30. I also recently saw ads for them lauching 9.3Mbits Wimax soon. These broadband services are available in almost all towns which I think is great. No data caps.

I've been playing SC2 on EU battlenet for now. 😉 ... We also have a good online gaming scenes with many CS, CSS, COD4, TF2 and even privately hosted WOW servers. There's also much LAN gaming everywhere at gaming places. DoTA is particularly popular. For anyone more interested, this is a cool Pakistani gaming site: http://www.pakgamers.com/forums/forum.php

When I'm in India, I feel in a village in this regard. My cousins where I stay have a 512K line with a data cap of 2GB and are paying as much as I am. And they're supposedly in India's business capital.

 

[The Green Bean]

Another major difference between the two countries is that India has many more locally branded things including cars. Tata and Reliance are two giants there. We don't have too many big companies that do almost everything. But we're getting much better. Our banking sector is doing really well and after the crisis of 2008 things have been picking up.

Another difference which is interesting is electricity and energy problems. I used to think there is no energy crisis in India. In Pakistan all urban areas go through about 2-3 hours of hourly loadshedding on weekdays. Western India normally has uninterrupted electricity service. However, this glorious India syndrome quickly ended when I visited Nagpur in Central India. They had loadshedding of 6-8 hrs daily! To add to that, India has it's own problems with Mumbai not having enough water and natural gas. We luckily don't have that problem.

I think the Pakistani media is too critical of everything. India doesn't give its press that much freedom. The media is banned from held Kashmir and I think even in India the press is very lenient and never badmouths the government. In Pakistan things are totally opposite. When it was Musharraf, all talk shows (we now have 20 major news channels) were constantly blaming him for all problems. Nowadays, the current government is the butt of all jokes. Surely some of this would be illegal even in the USA. There was a comedy, in which they showed flood victims hoping that the interior minister, PM and president would not visit them and then help themselves. Later in the show, they show Gillani going out to spot the eid moon and announcing that eid was hear because the moon was so clear. When he leaves, the remove the puppet move obviously referring to Gillani visiting fake IDP camps now spotting a fake moon. It was hilarious 😀