Kamala vs the Orange Felon - Presidential Race 2024 - Polls, News, Etc...

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Feb 4, 2009
35,245
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  • Intimidation can prevent the vote in the first place. Just outside my office were a bunch of illegal posters for the last primary (too close to a polling station). Imagine if instead of posters it was a bunch of armed people that were angry towards just some voters.

  • Throwing some people into the "provisional vote" category for any arbitrary reason can impact the votes that get counted (say due to gender, age, name that sounds too ethnic, T-shirt with a political theme, etc). What would happen in a swing election if a small but significant extra number of young, darker-skinned, females with short hair wearing a democratic shirt happened to be provisional and then the process to get the vote counted was extraordinarily complex?

  • Many electronic machines have no paper record, no publicly available code, and very lackluster validation procedures that would never pass any engineering or QC test. I think it was last election that someone in these forums claimed to be an election worker, and they just tossed in a few ballots the night before and if the machine counted correctly then they assumed the machine was fine. I definitely have the knowledge and skills to write code that counts correctly when tested on Nov 4 but doesn't count correctly when the date is Nov 5 (or counts correctly with small samples but gradually counts incorrectly with large numbers of ballots are used, or any variant on that).
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is an electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
Basic, quick and old tech that’s reliable. Admittedly money has to be spent on printing the paper portion but whatever. I know another guy who worked for the city and *I think* it costs like $30k in printing it’s not that big of a thing.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,722
3,130
136
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is a electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
While GAs system isn't the same, every vote is electronic with a paper backup.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,950
16,210
126
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is an electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
Basic, quick and old tech that’s reliable. Admittedly money has to be spent on printing the paper portion but whatever. I know another guy who worked for the city and *I think* it costs like $30k in printing it’s not that big of a thing.
I think we had that in the 90s here. Municipal and provincial election.
 

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,224
2,994
136
^That sounds pretty much like it is here in FL.

Ironically, all the older maga types I know (unfortunately some in my family) have all done mail-ins already. I like going day-of despite any line there may be.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,479
3,976
126
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is an electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
Basic, quick and old tech that’s reliable. Admittedly money has to be spent on printing the paper portion but whatever. I know another guy who worked for the city and *I think* it costs like $30k in printing it’s not that big of a thing.
Luckily paperless machines are getting more rare. But the $30k printing isn't the problem. It is the $203 million to replace all paperless machines:
We estimate that the cost of replacing all voting equipment used by in-person voters, including principal polling place equipment and assistive voting devices, first fielded in 2014 or earlier is $203 million. To reach this estimate, we relied on Verified Voting data from January 2024.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
35,245
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^That sounds pretty much like it is here in FL.

Ironically, all the older maga types I know (unfortunately some in my family) have all done mail-ins already. I like going day-of despite any line there may be.
Per my guy who worked at City Hall mail in is great and we as a city should encourage it because it means fewer ballots are required to be printed.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
Luckily paperless machines are getting more rare. But the $30k printing isn't the problem. It is the $203 million to replace all paperless machines:

Well yeah and who the fuck thought paperless was going to be a great idea.
I get that in the mid 90s we didn’t think of the insecurity of such machines but time has come and it is time to change them.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
35,245
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They still have to print the ballot to send out.
Cheaper paper and I forgot the number but each voting ward needs enough paper ballots for all to vote plus a few percent more for the people who make mistakes which I have never seen. I am sure the printing cost of a mail in ballot is less.
We typically have a bit more than 30% turnout for State elections and like double that for Presidential elections. There is a lot of paper waste.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
136
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is an electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
Basic, quick and old tech that’s reliable. Admittedly money has to be spent on printing the paper portion but whatever. I know another guy who worked for the city and *I think* it costs like $30k in printing it’s not that big of a thing.
Gee, with mail in voting you get a paper trail. Democracy is really, really, easy, if you REALLY want everyone to participate.
Actually, the only difference in the process in Washington is that the same process is in play after the ballot is received by the county auditor.
 
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Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,894
3,628
136
Luckily paperless machines are getting more rare. But the $30k printing isn't the problem. It is the $203 million to replace all paperless machines:

About 1/3 of Texas uses paperless electronic voting machines, which really don’t inspire confidence. While they are isolated from the internet, you are completely trusting in both the original programmer and the election staff.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,817
136
Scary, absolutely. I'm also a little confused because aren't voting machines electronic? Like, how are they going to count views incorrectly (fraudulently)?
But also, there would be lawsuits after lawsuits demanding recounts. Once the courts get involved, the fuckery tends to fly out the window because they operate on real evidence (unless you're SCOTUS)
If all the poll workers in a location are in on it they could vote for people that didn't show up. My understanding is they also get the vote totals off each machine then add them together to report out to the election board.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
7,471
2,741
136
KY - walk in show ID, receive paper ballot from geriatric poll worker, proceeded to secure area. Fill out big ‘D’ at the top of ballot, check the bottom and the back for referendum issues, take to machine and insert. OK message on machine signifies recording of the vote, geriatric poll worker jabs me with a sticker.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
136
KY - walk in show ID, receive paper ballot from geriatric poll worker, proceeded to secure area. Fill out big ‘D’ at the top of ballot, check the bottom and the back for referendum issues, take to machine and insert. OK message on machine signifies recording of the vote, geriatric poll worker jabs me with a sticker.
They actually have just a D or R selection so you don't have to do it for individual candidates?
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,244
10,817
136
I cannot figure out why everywhere isn’t like Massachusetts.
When I vote I get a paper ballot that’s rather large so it’s easy to read/fill out. There is typically complete a line next to who or what you want to vote for or the same process but it’s a large(ish) bubble that you color in.
I take the filled out ballot to a machine where someone watches to ensure I don’t have extras filled out, machine takes the ballot and reads it AND stores the paper.
Per a neighbor who used to work on Election Day the machines are not networked and have no connectivity to anything else.
Point being there is an electronic vote cast for easy counting AND a paper ballot for auditing.
Basic, quick and old tech that’s reliable. Admittedly money has to be spent on printing the paper portion but whatever. I know another guy who worked for the city and *I think* it costs like $30k in printing it’s not that big of a thing.
That is how Oklahoma still does it.
 
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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,536
16,306
146
  • Intimidation can prevent the vote in the first place. Just outside my office were a bunch of illegal posters for the last primary (too close to a polling station). Imagine if instead of posters it was a bunch of armed people that were angry towards just some voters.

  • Throwing some people into the "provisional vote" category for any arbitrary reason can impact the votes that get counted (say due to gender, age, name that sounds too ethnic, T-shirt with a political theme, etc). What would happen in a swing election if a small but significant extra number of young, darker-skinned, females with short hair wearing a democratic shirt happened to be provisional and then the process to get the vote counted was extraordinarily complex?

  • Many electronic machines have no paper record, no publicly available code, and very lackluster validation procedures that would never pass any engineering or QC test. I think it was last election that someone in these forums claimed to be an election worker, and they just tossed in a few ballots the night before and if the machine counted correctly then they assumed the machine was fine. I definitely have the knowledge and skills to write code that counts correctly when tested on Nov 4 but doesn't count correctly when the date is Nov 5 (or counts correctly with small samples but gradually counts incorrectly with large numbers of ballots are used, or any variant on that).

Virtually every state that uses machines prints out a paper ballot to be signed by the voter.

That's why ALL the swing states had long hand recounts of paper ballots even if they were using machines and machine counters.

States that use machines without (all or some) paper ballots:

KS
KY
LA
IN
MS
NJ
OK (disabled only)
TN
TX


Like I said, no swing states and ALL GQP controlled. Correction: NJ also uses some machines without paper ballot.

Every other state has a paper trail for every vote.

 
Last edited:
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Nov 17, 2019
12,258
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I'm opposed to any form of Straight Ticket selection system. I fill in a blob beside a name in every Candidate/Office section. It doesn't take any longer overall.

But I've also stopped voting for anyone that's already been elected twice, so some sections may be left blank.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,757
2,533
126
Virtually every state that uses machines prints out a paper ballot to be signed by the voter.

That's why ALL the swing states had long hand recounts of paper ballots even if they were using machines and machine counters.

States that use machines without (all or some) paper ballots:

KS
KY
LA
IN
MS
NJ
OK (disabled only)
TN
TX


Like I said, no swing states and ALL GQP controlled. Correction: NJ also uses some machines without paper ballot.

Every other state has a paper trail for every vote.

I've never ever seen a requirement that any ballot be signed by the voter. And I've voted for over fifty years in several states, acted as a poll worker, and acted as an official poll watcher in several states multiple times. Heck, even the absentee (mail in) ballots I've seen or used didn't require a signature on the ballot-they require a signature on the official envelope sealing the ballot.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,536
16,306
146
I've never ever seen a requirement that any ballot be signed by the voter. And I've voted for over fifty years in several states, acted as a poll worker, and acted as an official poll watcher in several states multiple times. Heck, even the absentee (mail in) ballots I've seen or used didn't require a signature on the ballot-they require a signature on the official envelope sealing the ballot.
I stand corrected. On the envelope.