Kamala Harris: Medicare for all, free pre-K, debt free college, $500 guaranteed pay increase

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
What makes you think those 25M even WANT insurance?
Unless they can be denied heath care for inability to pay when (not if) they need health care, then any of those who don't 'want' insurance are simply ripping off the rest of us who do pay for insurance.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,538
2,538
136
I agree our system isn’t really allowed to be as competitive as it should, not nearly as much. But competition isn’t the reason our system is so expensive as someone implied earlier, there’s other structural problems that hamper it.

1) Your system does not have competition
2) In the case of medicine where there are situations where you need treatment NOW and it is impossible to shop for the best deal buying power and overheads are large contributors to the costs
3) With a splintered insurance system the buying power is always less than it could be and the overhead is always higher which drive prices up.
4) This overhead applies to hospitals as well needing to know how to deal with insurance from x number of companies who all have their own forms and practices you need to abide by.

More government and less competition is never the solution for anything.

This is a dumb comment. Would you want a private police force? How about private prosecutors or a private criminal justice system? How about a private road network where you need to pay 10 different tolls to get to work and you need to rent 10 different easy pay toll boxes from those companies to speed up your commute? Do those all suffer due to more government and less competition?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,719
47,408
136
Unless they can be denied heath care for inability to pay when (not if) they need health care, then any of those who don't 'want' insurance are simply ripping off the rest of us who do pay for insurance.

Exactly. I bet there are plenty of people who claim they don’t want or need insurance today. For almost 100% if them if they got a life threatening medical condition they would come crawling back, expecting the rest of us to pay for them.

‘Don’t want medical insirance’ almost always means ‘don’t want to pay for medical insurance because I know others will save me from my irresponsibility’. Oddly enough these people are usually conservatives, the supposed ideology of personal responsibility.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,719
47,408
136
Wait. You think everyone wants insurance?

What percentage do you think of those who don’t want insurance would suddenly want it very badly if they were diagnosed with cancer this afternoon? Unless your response to them is ‘too bad, you die’, this discussion is already decided.

If we will treat everyone regardless of their ability to pay then logic dictates that everyone who can contribute, must contribute.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
Wait. You think everyone wants insurance?
Yes, nearly everyone wants insurance. They show this in their actions even if they say otherwise. When they get sick or injured they go to the ER even if they can't pay for it. The proof is in the pudding as they say.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
Wait. You think everyone wants insurance?

Show some evidence those 25M don't want insurance. Why haven't you been able to do this yet? You seem damn sure 8% of the population has no desire for insurance so this should be easy for you to do right?
 

Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
255
111
86
Wait. You think everyone wants insurance?

Of the uninsured population there are definitely some people that don't want insurance and some people that would like insurance but can't afford it.

The problem is that these uninsured people still use the healthcare system and when they do it ends up being far more expensive. Everyone having insurance is good for the entire group. Costs will be lower for the system as a whole and then everyone can get the care that they need.

I don't understand why requiring everyone to have health insurance is that different than requiring everyone to have auto insurance if they drive.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,719
47,408
136
Of the uninsured population there are definitely some people that don't want insurance and some people that would like insurance but can't afford it.

The problem is that these uninsured people still use the healthcare system and when they do it ends up being far more expensive. Everyone having insurance is good for the entire group. Costs will be lower for the system as a whole and then everyone can get the care that they need.

I don't understand why requiring everyone to have health insurance is that different than requiring everyone to have auto insurance if they drive.

The theoretical argument is that you can elect not to purchase auto insurance by not driving a car while you can't elect to not be alive. (no, I don't think suicide counts in this case)

I do not find this to be a compelling argument in the slightest.
 

Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
255
111
86
The theoretical argument is that you can elect not to purchase auto insurance by not driving a car while you can't elect to not be alive. (no, I don't think suicide counts in this case)

I do not find this to be a compelling argument in the slightest.

I understand that argument but I think it fails because even uninsured people still use the healthcare system. The number of people that use absolutely no healthcare their entire life is basically 0%. There may be a couple of hermits that live their whole life without seeing a doctor and never go into a hospital when they are dying but that number is so small that I think a mandate is necessary.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,719
47,408
136
I understand that argument but I think it fails because even uninsured people still use the healthcare system. The number of people that use absolutely no healthcare their entire life is basically 0%. There may be a couple of hermits that live their whole life without seeing a doctor and never go into a hospital when they are dying but that number is so small that I think a mandate is necessary.

Yup. It's the same as the fact that you could theoretically live your whole life without ever using a public road. The number of people who will do so is vanishingly small though, so we don't bother and everyone pays taxes for them.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Show some evidence those 25M don't want insurance. Why haven't you been able to do this yet? You seem damn sure 8% of the population has no desire for insurance so this should be easy for you to do right?

Yes. Pretty easy. There are many reasons pay the penalty, many of which are cant afford, but this shows 8% dont want or need insurance. Its about halfway down the page.
 

Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
255
111
86
Yes. Pretty easy. There are many reasons pay the penalty, many of which are cant afford, but this shows 8% dont want or need insurance. Its about halfway down the page.

The article says that 8% of people who don't have health insurance don't need/want it, not that 8% of the population doesn't want it. So Essentially 8% of 25M don't want/need insurance. That is only 2M which is a lot different than saying 25M don't want it.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
The article says that 8% of people who don't have health insurance don't need/want it, not that 8% of the population doesn't want it. So Essentially 8% of 25M don't want/need insurance. That is only 2M which is a lot different than saying 25M don't want it.
Yep you're right.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,202
4,401
136
The article says that 8% of people who don't have health insurance don't need/want it, not that 8% of the population doesn't want it. So Essentially 8% of 25M don't want/need insurance. That is only 2M which is a lot different than saying 25M don't want it.

The other thing to remember about this number is that it is self reported. The odds are that they are simply wrong. They do need and will want insurance, the are just not self aware enough to know this.

I would say that there are a few, probably not as high as 2M but maybe, that really don't need health insurance simply because they are wealthy enough to pay cash when needed, but that is like saying that society should not pay for public roads because a few people can take helicopters anywhere they want to go.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yes. Pretty easy. There are many reasons pay the penalty, many of which are cant afford, but this shows 8% dont want or need insurance. Its about halfway down the page.

Maybe my reading comprehension is off this morning, but this is the only 8 percent reference I can find in that article-

Taxpayers also qualify for an exemption from the penalty if the lowest-priced qualifying coverage costs more than roughly 8 percent of their income. In 2015 and early 2016, the Internal Revenue Service sent letters to almost 319,000 taxpayers who may have unnecessarily paid the penalty to help them amend their 2014 taxes.

It doesn't support your claim at all. It would be helpful if you would quote the passage that does.

There's also the chart saying that 8% of people who don't have insurance say they don't need or want it, but that's not 8% of filers in any case. It's 8% of the 29M filers who don't have insurance.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,719
47,408
136
The other thing to remember about this number is that it is self reported. The odds are that they are simply wrong. They do need and will want insurance, the are just not self aware enough to know this.

I would say that there are a few, probably not as high as 2M but maybe, that really don't need health insurance simply because they are wealthy enough to pay cash when needed, but that is like saying that society should not pay for public roads because a few people can take helicopters anywhere they want to go.

Like I’ve said, even granting its 8% of the 25 million what percentage of those people would suddenly find they wanted and needed insurance if they were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow? 95%? 99%?
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
Like I’ve said, even granting its 8% of the 25 million what percentage of those people would suddenly find they wanted and needed insurance if they were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow? 95%? 99%?

Exactly, insure everyone and we don’t have to argue about it at all.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Maybe my reading comprehension is off this morning, but this is the only 8 percent reference I can find in that article-



It doesn't support your claim at all. It would be helpful if you would quote the passage that does.

There's also the chart saying that 8% of people who don't have insurance say they don't need or want it, but that's not 8% of filers in any case. It's 8% of the 29M filers who don't have insurance.

Yes. I acknowledged this two posts up.
 

Chromagnus

Senior member
Feb 28, 2017
255
111
86
Essentially everyone needs insurance in the long run but because of the way things are currently set up individuals sometimes look at it as a short term question. We have annual insurance policies so sometimes people think of it as "do I need insurance in the next year". If you are young and healthy there is a pretty good chance that you may not need/want insurance in the next year.

We need to take a longer term approach to healthcare. Essentially you need to be paying into the system even though you don't need/want it now because you will need/want it later. If you only signed up for insurance when you need it you are a net drain on the system. It would almost be like if you could choose not to pay into social security but could still opt to take money out of the system when you needed it. This is one of the big reasons why a mandate is important.