Just watched a CBC piece on the effect of the recession on China. Makes me mad to think....

[Locut0s]

This was a mini documentary following the lives of the working poor in China. Those working in textile mills and electronics factories. I know outsourcing is a sensitive topic here and everywhere in the west but for the sake of this post lets drop that topic. These are the livelihoods of hundreds if millions of people in the developing world and while their living standards may be low they are MUCH higher than they were only a few years back before China started to boom. Millions of people migrate from China's rural areas into the cities to get jobs and until the recession this has been the engine that has been driving China and much of the developing worlds rise from poverty. Now with the start of this global recession things are MUCH more uncertain, many many factories have closed and more are closing still, people are left wondering what to do next. If things get much worse unrest will start to settle in.

What makes me mad is to think that those in government and on wall street frittered away Hundreds of Billions of dollars KNOWINGLY without even thinking for a second that it was going to impact REAL peoples live in a big way. Everyone from auto workers in Detroit and IT professionals in America to factory workers in India and China are feeling the effects and are going to feel the effects of this all because of the greed of a few thousand at the top!!

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about the flaws of Capitalism which I understand. Nor a discussion about Communism, China bashing, outsourcing etc... THAT is NOT the point of this post. My point is just that until recently hundreds of millions of people in the developing world were seeing a meagre but very definite improvement in their standard of living. The rich were getting much richer but many of the poor were starting to get a little less poor for the first time in a long while. There was NO garuntee that this could continue of course!!! BUT this current economic downturn WAS STUPENDOUSLY STUPID and greedy even by wall street's usual standards.

 

[Phil21]

It takes two to tango..

Greedy bankers? Check.

Irresponsible retards living beyond their means? Check.

Without either of these parties, the resulting boom, and bust, could not have happened. At some point the house of cards must fall. Now, I don't think it has fallen - and who is to say if it even will. But at least a few of the stories at the top have come down, how many more remains to be seen.

And.. I may well include myself in the second category.

 

[alphatarget1]

Agreed... but sadly I'd have to say "c'est la vie" (that's life). That's really the essence of capitalism and "free trade".

 

[frostedflakes]

It is unfortunate, those in poor and developing nations are definitely hit the hardest during economic downturns. Millions have lost their jobs in the US, but even they still enjoy a relatively high standard of living.

 

[Farang]

You can't blame a few people and accuse them of sacrificing the greater good for their own self interest. Economics is a study of choice, meaning when we talk about economics all we are doing is talking about why people choose one thing or another. So if a system is set up in such a way to entice people to choose to take on risky amounts of debt, and bankers to take on loads of risky mortgages, then it is only natural that single individuals and single banks choose to make these decisions within the system to their own benefit. Little do they know that their own benefit puts a tiny dent in the system as a whole, and eventually the entire system collapses with them.

On a side note I was amused the other day at Claire McCaskill calling Wall Street CEO's "idiots." She as calling them idiots for not using the TARP funds for public benefit, but giving themselves bonuses. Now tell me, who is really the idiot here? The one who just got a million dollar bonus, or the one who gave away that bonus expecting some kind of public works project to come out of it?

 

[RichardE]

Social unrest will create revolution, which will topple that communist government. It will be bloody, but in the end the world will be better off because of it. I hope they revolt.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It is unfortunate, those in poor and developing nations are definitely hit the hardest during economic downturns. Millions have lost their jobs in the US, but even they still enjoy a relatively high standard of living.

And it's not just slightly higher either.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Social unrest will create revolution, which will topple that communist government. It will be bloody, but in the end the world will be better off because of it. I hope they revolt.

I disagree. China has chosen a path of gradual abandonement of Communism and it has been far more stable and more likely to succeed(IMO) than the Soviet collapse.

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: RichardE
Social unrest will create revolution, which will topple that communist government. It will be bloody, but in the end the world will be better off because of it. I hope they revolt.

I disagree. China has chosen a path of gradual abandonement of Communism and it has been far more stable and more likely to succeed(IMO) than the Soviet collapse.

The Chinese people have always been capitalists. They have traveled and settled in every spot on the planet where they can do business. Communism was just a short experiment. The government may sing praises for communism, but reality speaks for itself. Vietnam is doing the same thing, or trying to. Communist leaders are some of the richest people in Vietnam, driving Mercedes, sending their children to the most expensive universities in the States. All the while, holding a firm grip on the country so their children can take over. It's a nice arrangement for the ruling class.

 

[BoomerD]

Meh...close ALL the Chinese factories.

I'm sure most Americans will get by just fine without cheaply built Chinese junk for a while...until the corporations can find another country with even cheaper labor to build junk...

I'm an old fart. I remember when made in the USA meant good build quality and workers were proud to put their name on products they made.

I remember when cheap junk said "Made in Japan."
Then, the Japanese got too expensive.

I remember when cheap junk said, "Made in Hong Kong."
Then those folks got too expensive.

Then, I remember when "Made in Taiwan" meant cheap junk.
Then, yep, you guessed it, the Taiwanese got too expensive...

More recently, if you wanted cheap junk...you got "Made in Korea.
Unfortunately, not only did the Koreans get more expensive...their build quality never got better.

Nowadays, cheaply made junk says "Made in China," but the Chinese are getting too expensive.

From time to time, I see even more cheaply made junk with stickers that say, "Made in Vietnam."

The few products I've seen that say,"Made in India," were of such low quality that they never gained a foothold.

Pretty soon, the corporations are gonna run out of third-world shitholes to exploit.


Like I said, I'm an old fart. I learned at an early age to hate the communists.
"Better Dead Than Red!"
"Kill a Commie for your Mommie!"

Those were the catch phrases during the 50's, 60's and early 70's.

We fought the ChiComs in Korea and Vietnam.

I do my absolute best NOT to buy any product that says "Made in China," although the SAD reality is, sometimes, I have no choice.
I buy absolutely NOTHING that says, "Made in Vietnam."

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Meh...close ALL the Chinese factories.

I'm sure most Americans will get by just fine without cheaply built Chinese junk for a while...until the corporations can find another country with even cheaper labor to build junk...

I'm an old fart. I remember when made in the USA meant good build quality and workers were proud to put their name on products they made.

I remember when cheap junk said "Made in Japan."
Then, the Japanese got too expensive.

I remember when cheap junk said, "Made in Hong Kong."
Then those folks got too expensive.

Then, I remember when "Made in Taiwan" meant cheap junk.
Then, yep, you guessed it, the Taiwanese got too expensive...

More recently, if you wanted cheap junk...you got "Made in Korea.
Unfortunately, not only did the Koreans get more expensive...their build quality never got better.

Nowadays, cheaply made junk says "Made in China," but the Chinese are getting too expensive.

From time to time, I see even more cheaply made junk with stickers that say, "Made in Vietnam."

The few products I've seen that say,"Made in India," were of such low quality that they never gained a foothold.

Pretty soon, the corporations are gonna run out of third-world shitholes to exploit.


Like I said, I'm an old fart. I learned at an early age to hate the communists.
"Better Dead Than Red!"
"Kill a Commie for your Mommie!"

Those were the catch phrases during the 50's, 60's and early 70's.

We fought the ChiComs in Korea and Vietnam.

I do my absolute best NOT to buy any product that says "Made in China," although the SAD reality is, sometimes, I have no choice.
I buy absolutely NOTHING that says, "Made in Vietnam."

As with everything there is good and bad, I have owned plenty of things made in the USA that sucked and were junk just as I have owned stuff made in China that was fantastic...typically you get what you pay for and if your not paying much chances are your getting crap.

 

[boomerang]

Where are the banking reforms? Perhaps Congress is too busy to get these going right now? I'm concerned that that reforms will be put on the back burner for so long that they will be forgotten. Especially if by some miracle, we ever return to some form of normalcy.

These bankers, financial wizards, so-called masters of the universe, should be put on trial at the very least. Our system of justice does not allow it, but a mass hanging of about a dozen or two of them I think just might throw enough fear into the rest of them to make them start thinking twice before pulling these shenanigans again. Wild west justice.

It was said earlier that it takes two to Tango, well yes it does, but somebody has to lead. If you put candy in front of a child it will grab it. While some blame must be put on the masses, the bankers must shoulder the overwhelming majority of the blame.

They're still doing business as usual. Rome is burning and they're fiddling. Rewarding themselves with bonuses after bringing misery and suffering on the entire world. And, it's only begun.

Bankers are the pariah's of the decade. They must not be allowed to do this again.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It is unfortunate, those in poor and developing nations are definitely hit the hardest during economic downturns.

Agreed, this is the double edged sword of corporate greed. Those jobs in developing countries would have likely never existed if not for western corporations trying to help their profit margins and become wealthier by moving their factories from Western Europe / North America to developing nations. The same greed lead to the oil bubble and later the financial meltdown.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Phil21
It takes two to tango..

Greedy bankers? Check.

Irresponsible retards living beyond their means? Check.

Without either of these parties, the resulting boom, and bust, could not have happened. At some point the house of cards must fall. Now, I don't think it has fallen - and who is to say if it even will. But at least a few of the stories at the top have come down, how many more remains to be seen.

And.. I may well include myself in the second category.

Agree.

This current recession was borrowing from the future for the now. That happened here and happened in CHina, essentially; if the economy had not been burning unreasonably hot, China wouldn't have had its double digit GDP growth, so on a more reasonable increase in strength many of those who are going back to farms wouldn't have left in the first place.

It's a small consolation to them, though, and one must be careful about sounding like a selfish prick being in the West talking high and mighty about how the Chinese or other downtrodden deserve it.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It is unfortunate, those in poor and developing nations are definitely hit the hardest during economic downturns.

Agreed, this is the double edged sword of corporate greed. Those jobs in developing countries would have likely never existed if not for western corporations trying to help their profit margins and become wealthier by moving their factories from Western Europe / North America to developing nations. The same greed lead to the oil bubble and later the financial meltdown.

THe Chinese government is not without blame... the devalued thier currency for so long that it allowed them to become the export giant that they are.

 

[LegendKiller]

1. Those Chinese wouldn't have had jobs in the first place, they're just going back to the start.

2. The Chinese government funded the investments to build their own middle class. They too manipulated their own people to remain in power. They did this by suppressing the value of the Yuan, purchasing US RMBS and other debt, and purchasing US Treasuries. Their goal was to maintain enough US and foreign demand of cheap chinese shit in order to build up enough wealth in China's middle class to be able to support an internally driven consumerist/services economy rather than depend on a pure export economy.

3. US Obligors are to blame also. They signed on the dotted line and wanted to consume, both houses and plasma TVs. Nobody on Wall Street made them sign and to think anything else is merely shucking off personal responsibility, which is really the core of the problem.

 

[moparacer]

"These bankers, financial wizards, so-called masters of the universe, should be put on trial at the very least. Our system of justice does not allow it, but a mass hanging of about a dozen or two of them I think just might throw enough fear into the rest of them to make them start thinking twice before pulling these shenanigans again. Wild west justice."

Did anyone catch the interview on CNBC awhile ago where the guy said they are going to set up this TALF fund so hedge funds can borrow and free up the credit markets again? Specifically said that's what Geithner and others are looking at.

Foreign hedge funds????? Unregulated Hedge funds??????

OMG Get out the elmers glue and popsicle sticks and fix the house of cards lol.....

 

[piasabird]

First you said you do not want to discuss outsourcing. Then you complained about wall-street.

So what is the central purpose of your posting?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
I buy absolutely NOTHING that says, "Made in Vietnam."

Why not? The best-quality goods out of Viet Nam are produced by capitalists, not state-controlled businesses. Why would you want to discourage entrepreneurship?

It's so ironic that those who bang the "buy America" drum the loudest are the last to understand that what they're actually advocating is socialism.

 

[desy]

Consumerism fueled by credit and China was more than willing to give it.
Fine if you want all the junk, just have the $ to pay for it, instead of the have it now society NA turned into.
Negative saving rates, disgusting, hopefully this recession/depression shakes the world back into a more responsible and sustainable market.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Phil21
It takes two to tango..

Greedy bankers? Check.

Irresponsible retards living beyond their means? Check.

Without either of these parties, the resulting boom, and bust, could not have happened. At some point the house of cards must fall. Now, I don't think it has fallen - and who is to say if it even will. But at least a few of the stories at the top have come down, how many more remains to be seen.

And.. I may well include myself in the second category.

AND 3- lack of STATE regulation on both the stock markets and lending practices.


yes the general population is retarded, because they didn't speak out earlier.
At lest some poor people got to live in a nice house for a couple of years!
I sniff collusion in all of this!

 

[gingermeggs]

Its funny to watch, it reverse on china now, they are suffering droughts like never before- what price will we charge them for wheat and meat?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
Its funny to watch, it reverse on china now, they are suffering droughts like never before- what price will we charge them for wheat and meat?

Regardless of what you think of the Chinese government, the vast, vast majority of Chinese are just ordinary people who want a better life. Why do Americans take pleasure in watching them suffer?

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
Its funny to watch, it reverse on china now, they are suffering droughts like never before- what price will we charge them for wheat and meat?

Regardless of what you think of the Chinese government, the vast, vast majority of Chinese are just ordinary people who want a better life. Why do Americans take pleasure in watching them suffer?

Gidday!
That would be fair enough of a generalization if I were a sepo' (American fellow)
I am not mate! I am an aussie
Maybe you should ask them?
They suffer and still bred like rabbits! how can you have anything but pity!
Maybe we should "give" them condoms?
They are an unsustainable population size under the current environment.
Get down to 750million and we'll talk turkey! Same goes for India!

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: boomerang
Where are the banking reforms? Perhaps Congress is too busy to get these going right now? I'm concerned that that reforms will be put on the back burner for so long that they will be forgotten. Especially if by some miracle, we ever return to some form of normalcy.

These bankers, financial wizards, so-called masters of the universe, should be put on trial at the very least. Our system of justice does not allow it, but a mass hanging of about a dozen or two of them I think just might throw enough fear into the rest of them to make them start thinking twice before pulling these shenanigans again. Wild west justice.

It was said earlier that it takes two to Tango, well yes it does, but somebody has to lead. If you put candy in front of a child it will grab it. While some blame must be put on the masses, the bankers must shoulder the overwhelming majority of the blame.

They're still doing business as usual. Rome is burning and they're fiddling. Rewarding themselves with bonuses after bringing misery and suffering on the entire world. And, it's only begun.

Bankers are the pariah's of the decade. They must not be allowed to do this again.

I think there are a lot of changes to the financial industry being worked on, but it's all still in committee. Expect to start hearing a lot more in the coming months, though.