Just how silly is the illegal immigration issue?

[imported_Shivetya]

Illegals more and more file taxes

If that doesn't take the cake. I guess if you pay your taxes you can stay?

Does that mean they can collect EITC and thereby get paid to be here illegally?

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Illegals more and more file taxes

If that doesn't take the cake. I guess if you pay your taxes you can stay?

Does that mean they can collect EITC and thereby get paid to be here illegally?

In order to get EIC they must have a valid Social Security number so no they can't get it. However if your illegal and you file your taxes it can help you out. Depending on the circumstances of why your illegal it helps with proving to INS "Good moral Character". If you wish in the future to file a waiver I-601 or I-212 that would be something to write down. Also It really dosen't make any difference because you have a lot of illegals who work and pay taxes but never file (large portation). So in a way IRS is making money.....

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Illegals more and more file taxes

If that doesn't take the cake. I guess if you pay your taxes you can stay?

Does that mean they can collect EITC and thereby get paid to be here illegally?

In order to get EIC they must have a valid Social Security number so no they can't get it. However if your illegal and you file your taxes it can help you out. Depending on the circumstances of why your illegal it helps with proving to INS "Good moral Character".

Well thats a bit of good news, that they cannot collect EIC.

However I wonder if someone will use it as justification to allow them to vote. (even though you need to be a citizen to vote in most states)

 

[homercles337]

Since illegal immigration is a losing battle the govt may as well try to get some money out of them. Whats wrong with that? Arent you all about money anyway? $$$ uber alles, no?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Illegals more and more file taxes

If that doesn't take the cake. I guess if you pay your taxes you can stay?

Does that mean they can collect EITC and thereby get paid to be here illegally?

In order to get EIC they must have a valid Social Security number so no they can't get it. However if your illegal and you file your taxes it can help you out. Depending on the circumstances of why your illegal it helps with proving to INS "Good moral Character". If you wish in the future to file a waiver I-601 or I-212 that would be something to write down. Also It really dosen't make any difference because you have a lot of illegals who work and pay taxes but never file (large portation). So in a way IRS is making money.....

So then if they have a child born in the US they will be able to get EIC or do THEY also need a valid SS#?

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Illegals more and more file taxes

If that doesn't take the cake. I guess if you pay your taxes you can stay?

Does that mean they can collect EITC and thereby get paid to be here illegally?

In order to get EIC they must have a valid Social Security number so no they can't get it. However if your illegal and you file your taxes it can help you out. Depending on the circumstances of why your illegal it helps with proving to INS "Good moral Character". If you wish in the future to file a waiver I-601 or I-212 that would be something to write down. Also It really dosen't make any difference because you have a lot of illegals who work and pay taxes but never file (large portation). So in a way IRS is making money.....

So then if they have a child born in the US they will be able to get EIC or do THEY also need a valid SS#?

Read the publication on EIC from the irs carefully. Both parents must have a valid SS number. If one parents dosen't have an SSN you can't claim EIC. A TIN (Taxpayer Identification number is not a SSN). My wife and I know a couple who are legal. His wife and him are on H1-B visa (work visa). He has a SSN but his wife is on a differnet visa where she can't get an SSN. When he did taxes this year he couldn't claim EIC. They have a child born in the U.S. while he was working. The child has a valid SSN ovbioully becuase the child is a U.S. citizen. The father has a valid SSN becuase he has a work permit and his visa permits. However, his wife isn't working nor has the visa that will allow. She only has a TIN. Therefore they can not claim EIC.

BTW. EIC is no joke. The IRS checks up on people who claim EIC wheather they are qualified for it or not. People who claim EIC illegally and the IRS finds out. The IRS will force them to pay penalties and fines and they can't claim EIC again for 5 years. Claiming EIC always raises a red flag.

 

[piasabird]

They want to file taxes because that is proof of how long they have been in the country and that they are more legitimate than people who are paid under the table.

From a prosecution point of view if they filed taxes that could be used as evidence to convict their employer.

 

[Farang]

Very silly. Most people don't realize that illegal immigrants yield a net economic benefit to this country and easily pay for the limited amount of social services they receive. The issue has been created out of thin air and the reason our government has been so careless about the border is because the executive branch knows it would be silly to get rid of such a large part of our economy merely for political reasons. It will never be dealt with because there is no reason to deal with it.

 

[PottedMeat]

Heh, I was watching one of those evening news programs where they interviewed I believe the head of the IRS and he basically said "Legal or Illegal, we want your money".

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Farang
Very silly. Most people don't realize that illegal immigrants yield a net economic benefit to this country and easily pay for the limited amount of social services they receive

The only positive economic effects provided by illegal immigrants go to the people who employ them. I remember on interview on TV where a company manager was spouting off about they can do so much more work for the same amount of money by hiring illegals.

Exactly hwo does that work? You guessed it... illegals do not have the same cost of living as I do. I pay for auto and health insurance. I follow county codes and only house my immediate family in my single family zoned home. Thus when the county charges me for property tax, their outlay for the services I require is for only one family. I could go on. Maybe its different in what ever part of the country you live in.... around here there is not benefit.

 

[steppinthrax]

I find most Americans tend to be ignorant of the immigration system. They only know what hurts them and jump to conclusions so they can put someone up as a scapegoat. Pretty much there are 3 types of immigrants who file taxes.

1. Illegal immigrants who work legitimately: These are the ones who the employer doesn?t properly verify their status (I-9). However they do work but most of them (vast majority) don?t file their taxes because of fear mainly. So they essentially pay money to the government that to government keeps.

2. Illegal immigrants who work illegitimately: These are the ones who work under the table making scraps. Most of them don?t file their taxes. The one?s that do, do it again so they can establish some moral character.

3. Legal immigrants who work legitimately: These are the ones like I used in my last example almost all file taxes. It is required so they can establish citizenship considering they are on visa. Unfortunately since they are not citizens they are not qualified for full tax benefits that most Americans can do ex: EIC.

So really the govt is making money. Because most of the illegal immigrants fall under type number 1. They never file taxes. You also have type 3 who are not eligible for full benefits.

You also have another type that have been around since the start of the income tax system.

1. U.S. Born Citizens who work legitimately: These make up almost all of the IRS tax filers. They are the one?s responsible for all of the fraudulent tax returns. They are also the one?s less likely to file their income tax or evade filing taxes at all. Consistently look for loop holes and are the reason why the IRS have to re-write their tax code every single year.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Farang
Very silly. Most people don't realize that illegal immigrants yield a net economic benefit to this country and easily pay for the limited amount of social services they receive

The only positive economic effects provided by illegal immigrants go to the people who employ them. I remember on interview on TV where a company manager was spouting off about they can do so much more work for the same amount of money by hiring illegals.

Exactly hwo does that work? You guessed it... illegals do not have the same cost of living as I do. I pay for auto and health insurance. I follow county codes and only house my immediate family in my single family zoned home. Thus when the county charges me for property tax, their outlay for the services I require is for only one family. I could go on. Maybe its different in what ever part of the country you live in.... around here there is not benefit.

It is this type of thinking that perpetuates the myth. You are taking one element of their cost and one element of their benefit and comparing them. In reality the employers make more money, invest that money elsewhere, which leads to more job creation. In reality illegal immigrants spend the money they make in the United States (although much of it gets funneled out of the country, not a significant amount).

If you take a look at any comprehensive economic analysis of the situation, and don't just pick and choose specific portions, you will see that economists generally agree the immigrants are beneficial.

I don't think it is very surprising that the executive branch has never had a mass deportation or very strict border control, because they don't want to be responsible for the economic downturn we would experience afterwards. This unwritten rule we have about illegal immigrants being allowed in needs to end, and it needs to end in the form of a more open immigration policy.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Farang
Very silly. Most people don't realize that illegal immigrants yield a net economic benefit to this country and easily pay for the limited amount of social services they receive

The only positive economic effects provided by illegal immigrants go to the people who employ them. I remember on interview on TV where a company manager was spouting off about they can do so much more work for the same amount of money by hiring illegals.

Exactly hwo does that work? You guessed it... illegals do not have the same cost of living as I do. I pay for auto and health insurance. I follow county codes and only house my immediate family in my single family zoned home. Thus when the county charges me for property tax, their outlay for the services I require is for only one family. I could go on. Maybe its different in what ever part of the country you live in.... around here there is not benefit.

It is this type of thinking that perpetuates the myth. You are taking one element of their cost and one element of their benefit and comparing them. In reality the employers make more money, invest that money elsewhere, which leads to more job creation. In reality illegal immigrants spend the money they make in the United States (although much of it gets funneled out of the country, not a significant amount).

If you take a look at any comprehensive economic analysis of the situation, and don't just pick and choose specific portions, you will see that economists generally agree the immigrants are beneficial.

I don't think it is very surprising that the executive branch has never had a mass deportation or very strict border control, because they don't want to be responsible for the economic downturn we would experience afterwards. This unwritten rule we have about illegal immigrants being allowed in needs to end, and it needs to end in the form of a more open immigration policy.

Oh BS. If they stopped the illegals from coming in their would be no "economic downturn because there wasn't any economic upturn from them in the first place. As a matter of fact everythign you say is suspect, especially the part about the employers of the "llegals" investing their money and creating more jobs. Where, in Mexico where they can really take advantage of the workers, or just more jobs for illegals for the taxpayers to help support?

Poppycock and bulderdash.

 

[Farang]

I honestly have no idea what your response meant, but I did get a good laugh at "poppycock and bulderdash." The only thing I got out of it was that you suspected if what I was saying was true or not. If you suspect that respond with something other than jibberish, maybe some evidence.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Farang
I honestly have no idea what your response meant, but I did get a good laugh at "poppycock and bulderdash." The only thing I got out of it was that you suspected if what I was saying was true or not. If you suspect that respond with something other than jibberish, maybe some evidence.

What makes you think I have to produce evidence when you disn't bother producing any for your assertions?

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Farang
I honestly have no idea what your response meant, but I did get a good laugh at "poppycock and bulderdash." The only thing I got out of it was that you suspected if what I was saying was true or not. If you suspect that respond with something other than jibberish, maybe some evidence.

What makes you think I have to produce evidence when you disn't bother producing any for your assertions?

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then until you decide to do some research and learn that you're wrong. I've spent all week researching illegal immigration and have a presentation to give on Monday, so I'm not feeling very motivated to whip out the citations. In a few days maybe I'll post my paper here and you can have a look.

 

[xochi]

The State of Texas thinks they are a benifit. Below is a link to a study done by the Texas Comproller of public accounts titled "Undocumented Immigrants in Texas: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy December 2006"

Link

they do say that some forms of local government do not experience as positive effect as the State does.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: homercles337
Since illegal immigration is a losing battle the govt may as well try to get some money out of them. Whats wrong with that? Arent you all about money anyway? $$$ uber alles, no?

Losing battle?

The government's 'battle' is trying to convince you they're doing something about illegal immigration, while actually making sure there are as few obstacles as possible.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Farang

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Farang
I honestly have no idea what your response meant, but I did get a good laugh at "poppycock and bulderdash." The only thing I got out of it was that you suspected if what I was saying was true or not. If you suspect that respond with something other than jibberish, maybe some evidence.

What makes you think I have to produce evidence when you disn't bother producing any for your assertions?

Well I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then until you decide to do some research and learn that you're wrong. I've spent all week researching illegal immigration and have a presentation to give on Monday, so I'm not feeling very motivated to whip out the citations. In a few days maybe I'll post my paper here and you can have a look.

LMAO, what a clown. You just trying to sound out some arguments for your paper?

I've spent a lifetime living it. I could care less what your supposed papers say. When you whip them out I might (and I stress might) use them as asswipe.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Farang
Very silly. Most people don't realize that illegal immigrants yield a net economic benefit to this country and easily pay for the limited amount of social services they receive. The issue has been created out of thin air and the reason our government has been so careless about the border is because the executive branch knows it would be silly to get rid of such a large part of our economy merely for political reasons. It will never be dealt with because there is no reason to deal with it.

The question isn't 'do they produce more than they consumer?', it's 'how do they change the distribution of what is produced, for themselves and everyone else?'

The answer is both mathematically and empirically obvious.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Farang
You are taking one element of their cost and one element of their benefit and comparing them. In reality the employers make more money, invest that money elsewhere, which leads to more job creation.

So who pays the medical and school bills?
The landscaping overlord is surely making extra bucks, but I doubt he's paying any sort of SS/Federal/State/City taxes for his phantom employees.

In reality illegal immigrants spend the money they make in the United States (although much of it gets funneled out of the country, not a significant amount).

That money would've been spent in the US anyway, if the work was done legaly, so I don't see how that's a benefit from the illegals; if anything there's only the negative aspect which is the flow of money out of the country.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Farang
You are taking one element of their cost and one element of their benefit and comparing them. In reality the employers make more money, invest that money elsewhere, which leads to more job creation.

So who pays the medical and school bills?
The landscaping overlord is surely making extra bucks, but I doubt he's paying any sort of SS/Federal/State/City taxes for his phantom employees.

In reality illegal immigrants spend the money they make in the United States (although much of it gets funneled out of the country, not a significant amount).

That money would've been spent in the US anyway, if the work was done legaly, so I don't see how that's a benefit from the illegals; if anything there's only the negative aspect which is the flow of money out of the country.

You seem to think that if the illegal immigrants were gone these jobs would still be getting done, their income being spent, their taxes being paid. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. The millions of jobs illegal immigrants do aren't being taken away from other workers.. just about anybody who needs a job can find one in this economy. So no, that money wouldn't have been spent here, as nobody would have done the work to earn that money.

Now you refer to medical and school bills. Again you are taking a single aspect of their costs and applying it to the broader argument, when in fact it is clearly explained in any economic analysis that overall the costs they impose are outweighed by the taxes they pay.

Furthermore, it would simply be idiotic to kick them out of our schools. We invest in education because the returns from having an educated worker are much more than it costs to put that worker through school. This applies whether it is an American citizen or a Mexican living in America. To keep them all stupid serves to purpose whatsoever but to hurt us and them.

The only viable argument anti-immigration people have is the national security issue, which I still will disagree with but will acknowledge the other side is right to have their concerns. As fas as economics go, and the whole "they're leeching off of welfare!" complaint goes, it is completely baseless.

 

[Farang]

About your complaint that the landscapers aren't paying taxes, I'd also like to add that with a more open immigration policy these workers would be inclined to enter the country legally, and thus be documented and more easily tracked for tax purposes. As it stands now we are ridiculously strict on who we let into this country.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: homercles337
Since illegal immigration is a losing battle the govt may as well try to get some money out of them. Whats wrong with that? Arent you all about money anyway? $$$ uber alles, no?

Losing battle?

The government's 'battle' is trying to convince you they're doing something about illegal immigration, while actually making sure there are as few obstacles as possible.

:thumbsup:

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: homercles337
Since illegal immigration is a losing battle the govt may as well try to get some money out of them. Whats wrong with that? Arent you all about money anyway? $$$ uber alles, no?

Losing battle?

The government's 'battle' is trying to convince you they're doing something about illegal immigration, while actually making sure there are as few obstacles as possible.

Im not arguing with this at all Charlie. In fact, i agree with your post, but i was trying to make a point. Nonetheless, Shityva likes money and has a problem with the govt making money on illegals. I was pointing out hypocrisy. Shityva, doesnt like taxes, but objects to his lowered taxes if they come from illegal immigrants. He is in a bit of a quandary like all righties i suppose. Meh. Dumb is as dumb does.