Just a thought

[Viditor]

I've been reading some of the reports on Obama's upcoming stimulus package, and all of the different guesses the pudits are making about it.
Some points I'd like to make here...

1. Almost every pundit states that Obama will be focusing the stimulus on infrastructure as much as possible. This gets money to companies, provides jobs, creates credit need (for things like equipment to complete the work), and it does so while providing the country with needed roads, parks, bridges, etc...sort of a win-win.

2. Almost without exception, the environmentalists and engineers have stated that the most practical design for the automotive industry is the hydrogen fuel cell based vehicle.
Hydrogen is easy to create and can be made using alternative sources like wind and solar.
The automotive industry have long had viable engines actually running everyday vehicles (from buses to cars and trucks).
The only problem is that we lack the HUGE infrastructure required for Hydrogen delivery.

3. The US automotive industry has been placing second or third in the world for car design for some time now...one of the reasons it's in such bad shape now. By being the first to begin mass production of Hydrogen vehicles, the US could again move to the forefront of automobile manufacturing in the world.

4. Conversion to Hydrogen for cars would cut almost 2/3 of the oil consumption in the US, thereby eliminating all foreign reliance on oil.

5. While electric vehicles might be a nice idea, most of the batteries are manufactured in China...hydrogen fuel cells are not (yet).

Obviously what I'm getting at is that since the Government has to spend money on a stimulus package that is mostly infrastructure based, it seems to me that the very best infrastructure for them to spend that on would be the establishment of a safe Hydrogen network in the US...

Thoughts?

 

[0marTheZealot]

The one problem with a hydrogen fuel cell is that you require tons of electricity to power the fuel cell. Hydrogen isn't an energy source (unless you count fusion), but rather an energy carrier. There isn't elemental hydrogen in the world, it's all bound up somehow, either in water or in metal hydrides or other chemicals. And it takes a lot of energy to break those bonds.

So while a fuel cell maybe 90-99% efficient, there also exists the need for a huge increase in electricity production to fuel these fuel cells.

 

[jackschmittusa]

In addition to all the good points that 0marTheZealot made, unlike roads and bridges, which are publicly owned, H2 fueling stations will be privately owned. You'd have to convince people to invest a lot before there was a market for the product that used what they have to sell. Same with the car companies; hard to get them to invest huge amounts in vehicles that no one can use because they can't fuel them. the government would have to invest an astronomical amount subsidizing private companies to get such a thing going quickly.

 

[ericlp]

That is where solar, wind and nuke energy come in (the clean energy). They can make the hydrogen and then be shipped like gasoline.

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
The one problem with a hydrogen fuel cell is that you require tons of electricity to power the fuel cell. Hydrogen isn't an energy source (unless you count fusion), but rather an energy carrier. There isn't elemental hydrogen in the world, it's all bound up somehow, either in water or in metal hydrides or other chemicals. And it takes a lot of energy to break those bonds.

So while a fuel cell maybe 90-99% efficient, there also exists the need for a huge increase in electricity production to fuel these fuel cells.

But when you get down to it, anything at this point is just going to be a fuel source, not an energy source. Petroleum was the last energy source that we can pull from the Earth; any real replacement for petroleum based fuels is still going to require people to generate the energy. The question has become what is the best way to store the energy for cars. There are a variety of electrical storage in the forms of high density batteries, and there are fuel based solutions like hydrogen. I highly doubt that biofuels will become viable, maybe for a niche application warranting high energy density like aviation fuels.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: ericlp
That is where solar, wind and nuke energy come in (the clean energy). They can make the hydrogen and then be shipped like gasoline.

And this is the limit to the extent that Obama should push hydrogen batteries. I say batteries, since as mentioned above, hydrogen isn't a power source, but instead it is a form of power storage. All that hydrogen does is take the cheap source of oil energy and force us to use expensive sources of energy. We don't have enough electrical energy as it is (think back to the annual summer rolling blackouts and brownouts in California). Moving to hydrogen NOW would cripple our electrical system and destroy our economy. Hydrogen is just a temporary patch to the problem, but the patch isn't even feasible yet. Instead, we first need a massive upgrade to our electrical system.

We need more power plants. Many more. But that takes money. We need a much improved power grid. But that takes money. Every town and city should have at least one underground power cable running to it so that all towns and cities have at least one location with power in an emergency. But that takes a lot of money.

The public would accept public funding for electrical power. Heck, in many locations the ONLY source of electrical power is publically owned. The country would be very hard pressed to accept public funding of privately owned hydrogen filling stations for vehicles that don't yet exist in large numbers and for an electrical system that can't handle them.

Don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

Gas is only dirt cheap because of the major economic downturn the world is experiencing. Demand destruction, not extra supply, is driving the price of oil down. If/when the world starts growing again, the price of oil will be even higher than it was in June/July. The world, for the most part, is tapped out on oil. The only places for growth are the -stans in Central Asia and the Middle East, and even that's debatable, considering how little public information is published regarding these areas.

We definitely need to invest in nuclear, wind, solar and these other alternative energy sources. Anything less is simply criminal.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I still can't believe people buy into this hydrogen BS. First off, why not just use electric directly instead of using electricity to release the hydrogen? By converting, you are losing energy. THEN you convert the hydrogen back into electricity onboard the vehicle - again losing energy - to power an electric motor. Flippin' insane IMO. Why not cut out the middle step and go with battery power? Surely the time, effort, and money would be better spent on electrical/battery tech than hydrogen since it's book ended by electricity anyway. Sheesh.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why not cut out the middle step and go with battery power? Surely the time, effort, and money would be better spent on electrical/battery tech than hydrogen since it's book ended by electricity anyway. Sheesh.

I agree. The OP's response was in the OP: the US doesn't make the batteries. The rebuttal to that response is here.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why not cut out the middle step and go with battery power? Surely the time, effort, and money would be better spent on electrical/battery tech than hydrogen since it's book ended by electricity anyway. Sheesh.

I agree. The OP's response was in the OP: the US doesn't make the batteries. The rebuttal to that response is here.

I understand the OP tried and failed at it but it still doesn't change the fact that it's stupid to purposely decrease the efficiency for travel by converting twice when you have the same end powerplant in the vehicle.

I frankly don't care who makes the batteries or where they are made - if the tech is out there(in Asia?), why the hell aren't we using it?

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I understand the OP tried and failed at it but it still doesn't change the fact that it's stupid to purposely decrease the efficiency for travel by converting twice when you have the same end powerplant in the vehicle.

I agree 100% and have said the same thing in other threads. Going electricity -> anything -> electricity isn't a solution to our energy problem. Heck, it just makes the problem worse with those inefficiencies.

I frankly don't care who makes the batteries or where they are made - if the tech is out there(in Asia?), why the hell aren't we using it?

I agree too, but many American's won't agree to spending government money to improve Asia's economy. Actually, the battery technology still really isn't there. The batteries they use now are pricy, heavy, and prone to problems. The biggest thing we could do in that area is to increase funding for battery research. A breakthrough battery would be the most important invention this century. It may likely be a combination new battery / supercapacitor.

 

[SP33Demon]

One large problem: ExxonMobil

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

My sarcasm meter wiggled a little bit on that post but I think the original poster is "odd" to begin with so lulz to him.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I understand the OP tried and failed at it but it still doesn't change the fact that it's stupid to purposely decrease the efficiency for travel by converting twice when you have the same end powerplant in the vehicle.

I agree 100% and have said the same thing in other threads. Going electricity -> anything -> electricity isn't a solution to our energy problem. Heck, it just makes the problem worse with those inefficiencies.

I frankly don't care who makes the batteries or where they are made - if the tech is out there(in Asia?), why the hell aren't we using it?

I agree too, but many American's won't agree to spending government money to improve Asia's economy. Actually, the battery technology still really isn't there. The batteries they use now are pricy, heavy, and prone to problems. The biggest thing we could do in that area is to increase funding for battery research. A breakthrough battery would be the most important invention this century. It may likely be a combination new battery / supercapacitor.

Agreed.

 

[Viditor]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
In addition to all the good points that 0marTheZealot made, unlike roads and bridges, which are publicly owned, H2 fueling stations will be privately owned. You'd have to convince people to invest a lot before there was a market for the product that used what they have to sell. Same with the car companies; hard to get them to invest huge amounts in vehicles that no one can use because they can't fuel them. the government would have to invest an astronomical amount subsidizing private companies to get such a thing going quickly.

To be clear, it's the transportation network (pipelines and such) and conversion plants I was speaking of as far as infrastructure is concerned. Building the individual stations and delivery locations is a minor point relatively speaking.
As to the vehicles themselves, the designs are already in place. The entire industry has been developing the cars for the last decade, just waiting for an infrastructure to be built. The cost to produce a hydrogen vehicle is currently estimated to be about 1/2 that of a baterry vehicle.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I still can't believe people buy into this hydrogen BS. First off, why not just use electric directly instead of using electricity to release the hydrogen? By converting, you are losing energy. THEN you convert the hydrogen back into electricity onboard the vehicle - again losing energy - to power an electric motor. Flippin' insane IMO. Why not cut out the middle step and go with battery power? Surely the time, effort, and money would be better spent on electrical/battery tech than hydrogen since it's book ended by electricity anyway. Sheesh.

Because batteries are FAR less efficient than Hydrogen storage. There's also the environmental problem of what to do with the batteries afterwords (the lead used is highly toxic), and the fact that batteries have a terrible power to weight ratio.
Now there is another possibility in the future...MIT is developing a new "battery" that is more like billions of tiny capacitors and uses CNT technology. That might be better, but it's still a huge unknown while hydrogen is not...

Edit:BTW, the other problem with batteries is that "refilling your tank" can take 10-20 hours in some cases, while hydrogen takes a minute or two...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Viditor

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I still can't believe people buy into this hydrogen BS. First off, why not just use electric directly instead of using electricity to release the hydrogen? By converting, you are losing energy. THEN you convert the hydrogen back into electricity onboard the vehicle - again losing energy - to power an electric motor. Flippin' insane IMO. Why not cut out the middle step and go with battery power? Surely the time, effort, and money would be better spent on electrical/battery tech than hydrogen since it's book ended by electricity anyway. Sheesh.

Because batteries are FAR less efficient than Hydrogen storage. There's also the environmental problem of what to do with the batteries afterwords (the lead used is highly toxic), and the fact that batteries have a terrible power to weight ratio.
Now there is another possibility in the future...MIT is developing a new "battery" that is more like billions of tiny capacitors and uses CNT technology. That might be better, but it's still a huge unknown while hydrogen is not...

Edit:BTW, the other problem with batteries is that "refilling your tank" can take 10-20 hours in some cases, while hydrogen takes a minute or two...

No, the efficiency is not "FAR less" - it's actually more. You might be able to claim longevity is less but that assumes fuel cells last longer than the current best battery tech. It's amazing that hydrogen pushers try to claim that the others are "unknown" but theirs is somehow "proven". Yes, we know it works, we know it can work, but we do not know how it's going to work longterm but we do know one thing - it is very inefficient to go electric>Hydrogen>electric which will never beat electric>electric unless you find a way to beat a few laws of physics.

Now, I'm not opposed to fully electric drivetrains with an alternate power source(for longer trips) but that's another whole topic that pisses me off.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

YOUR lack of foresight is also what gets us into trouble. Let push for alternatives without fully understanding the ramifications of what we have done. Lets try ethanol. Lets turn our food into fuel. Result: Skyrocketing corn prices. Corn prices drive up other products such as chicken and beef who need corn to feed their animals. Result: High food prices. Then fuel prices go up and we have high fuel costs, high food costs, and everything starts going up. Start pushing for electric or hydrogen cars and what happens? Prepared for a 4x increase if your electrical bill each month because of lack of generating capacity? Oops, we didn't think that one through either.. sorry! We'll just build more plants.. Nuclear, can't do that! Coal! Oops, not that either.. Natural Gas! Thats clean! Oh wait, we can't easily transport it. Wind! No, can't kill the birds..

Oil is the cheapest form of energy out there right now. There is no alternative at even remotely close to the same cost. Its good to research alternatives but change will not happen until oil is no longer cheap. Oil has been cheap for most of the last 30 years.. it had a blip recently and it has corrected. Even if it goes to $3.00 a gallon again for gas its STILL cheaper than alternatives. I'm not convinced we are running out.. they told us we were in the 1970's and that didn't happen. Now you are saying its going to happen NOW.. What if you are wrong? What if we have another 50 years of cheap oil out there? Or 100? Oops, we forced you to buy a hydrogen car at twice the price and twice the cost per mile.. sorry!

I'm not saying looking into alternatives is bad, but change will not happen until oil is not cheap anymore.. We need to look at this from ALL sides not just YOUR side. Unintended consequences seem to be the norm for us lately (ie - Giving everyone houses they couldn't afford.) - Lets think things through a little more thoroughly.

 

[Jiggz]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

So when will you invest in new energy source? When gallon of gas is $20? $30? $100? It's your kind of mentality that we Americans always get caught with our "pants down"- everytime there is an energy crisis. Your lack of foresight is so bad you can't even see beyond your nose. While gas is dirt cheap we should start investing in new energy sources. It's cheaper and more economically viable now instead of waiting when there is a crisis! Or when there is no more oil available.

 

[DaveSimmons]

One advantage I see for hydrogen is that it can be produced at least partly during off-peak hours and days, and in different locations than where it's used. Though if produced out-of-area then of course more energy is lost transporting it.

The electric car charger needs to be near the commuter and the utility can't control when people decide to charge.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

YOUR lack of foresight is also what gets us into trouble. Let push for alternatives without fully understanding the ramifications of what we have done. Lets try ethanol. Lets turn our food into fuel. Result: Skyrocketing corn prices. Corn prices drive up other products such as chicken and beef who need corn to feed their animals. Result: High food prices. Then fuel prices go up and we have high fuel costs, high food costs, and everything starts going up. Start pushing for electric or hydrogen cars and what happens? Prepared for a 4x increase if your electrical bill each month because of lack of generating capacity? Oops, we didn't think that one through either.. sorry! We'll just build more plants.. Nuclear, can't do that! Coal! Oops, not that either.. Natural Gas! Thats clean! Oh wait, we can't easily transport it. Wind! No, can't kill the birds..

Oil is the cheapest form of energy out there right now. There is no alternative at even remotely close to the same cost. Its good to research alternatives but change will not happen until oil is no longer cheap. Oil has been cheap for most of the last 30 years.. it had a blip recently and it has corrected. Even if it goes to $3.00 a gallon again for gas its STILL cheaper than alternatives. I'm not convinced we are running out.. they told us we were in the 1970's and that didn't happen. Now you are saying its going to happen NOW.. What if you are wrong? What if we have another 50 years of cheap oil out there? Or 100? Oops, we forced you to buy a hydrogen car at twice the price and twice the cost per mile.. sorry!

I'm not saying looking into alternatives is bad, but change will not happen until oil is not cheap anymore.. We need to look at this from ALL sides not just YOUR side. Unintended consequences seem to be the norm for us lately (ie - Giving everyone houses they couldn't afford.) - Lets think things through a little more thoroughly.

Hey now, be sure you have the FACTS before you start railing against ethanol. I suggest you understand how much corn we produce(thus not using food as fuel) and what REALLY caused the cost of corn to go up(hint - other crops were affected too). But that is really off topic and there are plenty of other threads for you to learn about ethanol.

 

[pirateguy]

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

So when will you invest in new energy source? When gallon of gas is $20? $30? $100? It's your kind of mentality that we Americans always get caught with our "pants down"- everytime there is an energy crisis. Your lack of foresight is so bad you can't even see beyond your nose. While gas is dirt cheap we should start investing in new energy sources. It's cheaper and more economically viable now instead of waiting when there is a crisis! Or when there is no more oil available.

I don't think people realize how much incorrect speculation had to do with rising oil prices. Do you think that simply lack of demand has caused oil to fall 70%? Demand has certainly decreased, but the main reason oil has fallen so much is because oil prices were irrationally driven too high, like the housing bubble.

Oil has been sold at pretty stable prices for many decades, and for all we know may continue for many more. In order for investing in alternative energy to make sense, we have to have evidence that oil will get more expensive than alternative energy in the near future. The fact that oil got very expensive this past year (still cheaper than anything else) is not evidence that it will happen again. As another poster said, that was merely a blip.

We definitely should wait until oil prices go up. What happens if they don't go up drastically for another 30 years? I think there is a good chance we will have discovered something better than hydrogen fuel cells in that time. Maybe we will develop fast charging batteries that are more efficient. I would much rather pay more at the pump for a few years than spend a decade wasting time and money on a hydrogen infrastructure that we don't even need.

Companies are working to develop competing forms of energy. Let them. Let's not have the government (which knows nothing about energy and economics) decide what fuel we use in the future.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

YOUR lack of foresight is also what gets us into trouble. Let push for alternatives without fully understanding the ramifications of what we have done. Lets try ethanol. Lets turn our food into fuel. Result: Skyrocketing corn prices. Corn prices drive up other products such as chicken and beef who need corn to feed their animals. Result: High food prices. Then fuel prices go up and we have high fuel costs, high food costs, and everything starts going up. Start pushing for electric or hydrogen cars and what happens? Prepared for a 4x increase if your electrical bill each month because of lack of generating capacity? Oops, we didn't think that one through either.. sorry! We'll just build more plants.. Nuclear, can't do that! Coal! Oops, not that either.. Natural Gas! Thats clean! Oh wait, we can't easily transport it. Wind! No, can't kill the birds..

Oil is the cheapest form of energy out there right now. There is no alternative at even remotely close to the same cost. Its good to research alternatives but change will not happen until oil is no longer cheap. Oil has been cheap for most of the last 30 years.. it had a blip recently and it has corrected. Even if it goes to $3.00 a gallon again for gas its STILL cheaper than alternatives. I'm not convinced we are running out.. they told us we were in the 1970's and that didn't happen. Now you are saying its going to happen NOW.. What if you are wrong? What if we have another 50 years of cheap oil out there? Or 100? Oops, we forced you to buy a hydrogen car at twice the price and twice the cost per mile.. sorry!

I'm not saying looking into alternatives is bad, but change will not happen until oil is not cheap anymore.. We need to look at this from ALL sides not just YOUR side. Unintended consequences seem to be the norm for us lately (ie - Giving everyone houses they couldn't afford.) - Lets think things through a little more thoroughly.

Hey now, be sure you have the FACTS before you start railing against ethanol. I suggest you understand how much corn we produce(thus not using food as fuel) and what REALLY caused the cost of corn to go up(hint - other crops were affected too). But that is really off topic and there are plenty of other threads for you to learn about ethanol.

Ethanol sucks. I don't want to use it. Tell government to stop mandating I use an inferior fuel.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil

Originally posted by: retrospooty

Originally posted by: Fear No Evil
Gas is dirt cheap right now. Why would we move away from something cheap to something expensive during an economic downturn? That doesn't make any sense.

You lack of foresight is exactly why we are in this mess. Oh, its cheap now, why bother to change?

Its cheap now because the economy took a crap and people are cutting back. Once this ends we will be in worse shape and still have not started on a replacement. Its a long process and wont be finished until at least a decade after it starts, if we dont start, we will never finish.

YOUR lack of foresight is also what gets us into trouble. Let push for alternatives without fully understanding the ramifications of what we have done. Lets try ethanol. Lets turn our food into fuel. Result: Skyrocketing corn prices. Corn prices drive up other products such as chicken and beef who need corn to feed their animals. Result: High food prices. Then fuel prices go up and we have high fuel costs, high food costs, and everything starts going up. Start pushing for electric or hydrogen cars and what happens? Prepared for a 4x increase if your electrical bill each month because of lack of generating capacity? Oops, we didn't think that one through either.. sorry! We'll just build more plants.. Nuclear, can't do that! Coal! Oops, not that either.. Natural Gas! Thats clean! Oh wait, we can't easily transport it. Wind! No, can't kill the birds..

Oil is the cheapest form of energy out there right now. There is no alternative at even remotely close to the same cost. Its good to research alternatives but change will not happen until oil is no longer cheap. Oil has been cheap for most of the last 30 years.. it had a blip recently and it has corrected. Even if it goes to $3.00 a gallon again for gas its STILL cheaper than alternatives. I'm not convinced we are running out.. they told us we were in the 1970's and that didn't happen. Now you are saying its going to happen NOW.. What if you are wrong? What if we have another 50 years of cheap oil out there? Or 100? Oops, we forced you to buy a hydrogen car at twice the price and twice the cost per mile.. sorry!

I'm not saying looking into alternatives is bad, but change will not happen until oil is not cheap anymore.. We need to look at this from ALL sides not just YOUR side. Unintended consequences seem to be the norm for us lately (ie - Giving everyone houses they couldn't afford.) - Lets think things through a little more thoroughly.

Hey now, be sure you have the FACTS before you start railing against ethanol. I suggest you understand how much corn we produce(thus not using food as fuel) and what REALLY caused the cost of corn to go up(hint - other crops were affected too). But that is really off topic and there are plenty of other threads for you to learn about ethanol.

Ethanol sucks. I don't want to use it. Tell government to stop mandating I use an inferior fuel.

It may not be the "best" option but since MBTE was outlawed, it's what can be used as an oxegenate. It'd also be much better if manufacturers would upgrade tunings to run better on it but since they get the tax break just for making it run on it(no matter the efficiency) and slapping a "flex fuel" sticker on it - they won't spend the time and $ to make the tuning flexibility changes.