Just a little too much info .. Circumcision

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Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Once you lose nerves, you lose it... doesn't matter how well your body heals, it isn't going to regenerate nerves that are lost. And it is a KNOWN fact that the little 'snip' of skin they do during infancy results in approximately 60% less skin as an adult.
Oh really? Ok, so tell us genius, why do surgeons spend hours rejoining severed nerves when they are surgically re-attaching a limb, such as a hand or a leg?

You think they're doing that just to be 'neat' and 'tidy'?

Here, let me give your answer for you: "Uhhh...but...umm....duhhh...I didn't know that."

That's done surgically, the body didn't regenerate the nerves themselves. You really can't tell the difference?


It's only in the US where males are frequently circumcised... 80% of the world's male population still have it intact.
Most of whom live in impoverished developing countries.[/quote]

Um ok. Canada (25%), UK (1%), Australia (20%), New Zealand (3%) are circumcised.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
Hey, I have an idea...
Well it is soooo difficult to wash your eyes and everything, look at all these germs under your eylids...
How about we are going to remove them?
Lets remove the eyelids, this way caring for the eyes will become much simpler
rolleye.gif


More seriously, I can never understand why would you remove an extra, protective layer of the skin (which slides out durring the intercourse exposing the hat) from your most sensitive organ?
I mean wtf?
This is the stupidest idea evar...
I will not have it done to my kid, thats for sure, his hat should be protected as much as possible...
And there is no hygenic diffrience these days. Maybe there was a diffrience few thousands years ago in the desert, but right now, as long as one is washing himself once every few days, it is NOT an issue...
This procedure should be banned....
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: kleinesarschloch
It's only in the US where males are frequently circumcised... 80% of the world's male population still have it intact.

i don't know where you came up with 80%, but you might want to know that circumcision is also practiced among muslims world-wide.

Follow the link before this post... and do a search, that's the accepted number.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
More seriously, I can never understand why would you remove an extra, protective layer of the skin (which slides out durring the intercourse exposing the hat) from your most sensitive organ?
I mean wtf?
This is the stupidest idea evar...

The practice became popular (aside from religious reasons) during the victorian times to stop boys from masturbating actually.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
The practice became popular (aside from religious reasons) during the victorian times to stop boys from masturbating actually.

Well most of the circumsized males DO masturbate, therefore it is not a good solution to masturbation problem :D

Anyhow, humans are always fighting with the nature, which is just plain stupid....
How about we start removing something else, like lets all shave to bold zero to keep maintaining a higene...
rolleye.gif
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: adlep
Hey, I have an idea...
Well it is soooo difficult to wash your eyes and everything, look at all these germs under your eylids...
How about we are going to remove them?
Lets remove the eyelids, this way caring for the eyes will become much simpler
rolleye.gif


More seriously, I can never understand why would you remove an extra, protective layer of the skin (which slides out durring the intercourse exposing the hat) from your most sensitive organ?
I mean wtf?
This is the stupidest idea evar...
I will not have it done to my kid, thats for sure, his hat should be protected as much as possible...
And there is no hygenic diffrience these days. Maybe there was a diffrience few thousands years ago in the desert, but right now, as long as one is washing himself once every few days, it is NOT an issue...
This procedure should be banned....

well, both of my boys, 6 and 2 are not circomcized and I don't regret it for a moment. i see absolutely no reason to put them thru it.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
well, both of my boys, 6 and 2 are not circomcized and I don't regret it for a moment. i see absolutely no reason to put them thru it.

Why would you?
Because it is good for them?
rolleye.gif

No one will convince me that the cirumsizion is beneficial and necessary in the modern world....
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
Reattaching severed nerves isn't the same.

When you are circumsized you lose large, named clusters of nerves and specialized tissues. . They are severed and removed from your body. They are no longer there. They do not grow back; the tissue that they reside in is gone.
Of course, nobody is disputing that you lose sensory nervous structures that are part of the excised foreskin.

What I'm talking about is that post-circumicision adults who report decreased sensation are in fact largely complaining of the traumatic nerve damage caused by the surgery. Once that nerve damage heals, and it takes quite a long time for an adult compared with a child, and even then, an adult will only regain a lesser portion of that damage, whereas an infant will regain virtually 100%, reports of decreased senstation decline and that decline scales well with the length of time post-surgery.

When you remove a portion of skin from anywhere on your body, and the two edges of skin are pulled together and sutured, you will have numbness, pain, and decreased sensation for several weeks and some times months, until the nerves heal. When those nerves heal, you haven't 'lost' sensation or the capacity for it.

Unless, that is, you are an adult at the time, whose capacity for nerve healing is greatly diminished compared with children. This is why young children can suffer rather dramatic soft tissue injuries, and by the time they reach adolescence, sensation in those previously traumatized areas is no different from nearby skin that wasn't traumatized.

An adult, however, is lucky to regain 70% of that capacity.
 

melly

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2002
3,612
0
0
roflmao.

She said I wont have to worry about cleaning and washing my penis on a daily basis ...
 

LeeTJ

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,899
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Reattaching severed nerves isn't the same.

When you are circumsized you lose large, named clusters of nerves and specialized tissues. . They are severed and removed from your body. They are no longer there. They do not grow back; the tissue that they reside in is gone.
Of course, nobody is disputing that you lose sensory nervous structures that are part of the excised foreskin.

What I'm talking about is that post-circumicision adults who report decreased sensation are in fact largely complaining of the traumatic nerve damage caused by the surgery. Once that nerve damage heals, and it takes quite a long time for an adult compared with a child, and even then, an adult will only regain a lesser portion of that damage, whereas an infant will regain virtually 100%, reports of decreased senstation decline and that decline scales well with the length of time post-surgery.

When you remove a portion of skin from anywhere on your body, and the two edges of skin are pulled together and sutured, you will have numbness, pain, and decreased sensation for several weeks and some times months, until the nerves heal. When those nerves heal, you haven't 'lost' sensation or the capacity for it.

Unless, that is, you are an adult at the time, whose capacity for nerve healing is greatly diminished compared with children. This is why young children can suffer rather dramatic soft tissue injuries, and by the time they reach adolescence, sensation in those previously traumatized areas is no different from nearby skin that wasn't traumatized.

tscenter

as an uncircumcized male i can tell you, if the skin is pulled back and my penis exposed to clothing w/o the foreskin there is significant pain. i can't imagine going thru this day in and day out. now, how can you tell me that there is NO sensory loss when you are like that permanently?? you would have to have be desensitized just to stay sane.

forget about the cutting off foreskin part, i'm talking about what the constant rubbing of penile skin to clothing.

 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Reattaching severed nerves isn't the same.

When you are circumsized you lose large, named clusters of nerves and specialized tissues. . They are severed and removed from your body. They are no longer there. They do not grow back; the tissue that they reside in is gone.
Of course, nobody is disputing that you lose sensory nervous structures that are part of the excised foreskin.

What I'm talking about is that post-circumicision adults who report decreased sensation are in fact largely complaining of the traumatic nerve damage caused by the surgery. Once that nerve damage heals, and it takes quite a long time for an adult compared with a child, and even then, an adult will only regain a lesser portion of that damage, whereas an infant will regain virtually 100%, reports of decreased senstation decline and that decline scales well with the length of time post-surgery.

When you remove a portion of skin from anywhere on your body, and the two edges of skin are pulled together and sutured, you will have numbness, pain, and decreased sensation for several weeks and some times months, until the nerves heal. When those nerves heal, you haven't 'lost' sensation or the capacity for it.

Unless, that is, you are an adult at the time, whose capacity for nerve healing is greatly diminished compared with children. This is why young children can suffer rather dramatic soft tissue injuries, and by the time they reach adolescence, sensation in those previously traumatized areas is no different from nearby skin that wasn't traumatized.

I think you're missing the point. Fact is, when you're circumcised, you have 60% less skin than someone who is not circumcised as an adult. And the head of the penis also loses some sensation due to exposure of the head, which is normally protected by the foreskin.
 

WinkOsmosis

Banned
Sep 18, 2002
13,990
1
0
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Once you lose nerves, you lose it... doesn't matter how well your body heals, it isn't going to regenerate nerves that are lost. And it is a KNOWN fact that the little 'snip' of skin they do during infancy results in approximately 60% less skin as an adult.
Oh really? Ok, so tell us genius, why do surgeons spend hours rejoining severed nerves when they are surgically re-attaching a limb, such as a hand or a leg?

You think they're doing that just to be 'neat' and 'tidy'?

Here, let me give your answer for you: "Uhhh...but...umm....duhhh...I didn't know that."

That's done surgically, the body didn't regenerate the nerves themselves. You really can't tell the difference?


It's only in the US where males are frequently circumcised... 80% of the world's male population still have it intact.
Most of whom live in impoverished developing countries.

Um ok. Canada (25%), UK (1%), Australia (20%), New Zealand (3%) are circumcised. [/quote]

Heh.. it's amazing how a stupid religious practice can become so accepted in a society that it's seen as barbarous and dirty to not have it done. The ancient Greeks, at one point, thought beards were a sign of inferiority and barbarism.
 

Jmmsbnd007

Diamond Member
May 29, 2002
3,286
0
0
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: brigden
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: brigden
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: brigden
Sex is more pleasurable for the uncircumsized male; I would recommend he leave his hat intact. That idiot has issues.
How would you know?

It's a medical fact.
And how do they measure pleasure between 2 different guys?

There are loads of nerves in the male foreskin. Those nerves add a lot in terms of sexual pleasure. Also, it's a known fact that the head of a circumsized male's penis is less sensitive compared to his uncircumsized counterpart. If his penis is less sensitive, it's fairly obvious that he won't experience the same, or as intense, sensations whilst being aroused.

Circumcision is predominantly a Jewish tradition. However, many non-Jews have incorrectly viewed the procedure as the hygenic thing to do. That trend is changing as more people opt to leave their baby's hat intact; the way nature intended.
Uh... more people are opting for circumsizion, and it's low maintenence too... And the whole pleasure thing is debatable.

The reason its debatable is because people who are circumsized don't know the difference. Of course they still feel pleasure.

That's not the point. The fact is, you're cutting off many nerve clusters that would normally be there. That has to count for *something*.
Something, but how much? I'd imagine quality over quantity. Do the nerves on the foreskin count for sexual pleasure, anyway? Or are they just nerves to feel things...

I don't understand your quality over quantity comment. What does that have to do with circumcision?

Of course the nerves on the foreskin "count" for sexual pleasure. That's what they're there for. Thats what your penis is for. You don't use your penis to feel things, like your hands. :p

Come on guys, it's a no-brainer. Have your feet ever been calloused? How much does it hurt to walk on gravel when your feet are soft compared to when they're calloused and rough?
So you're saying a circumsized male has decreased sensitivity because his head is exposed? Last time I checked the base of the penis doesnt' cause sexual pleasure either :p So do the nerves on the foreskin contribute to sexual pleasure or just telling your brain "hey, this is your foreskin, I feel some underware here"

Yes, that is exactly what we are saying. The head has been keratinized from constant contact with the outside world. Look it up. :p

Huh? No, the base doesen't contribute to sexual pleasure. I don't understand what you're talking about. :p

I can imagine that it would be very hard to understand for a circumsized person, likewise it would be very hard for a non-circumsized person to know what its like to be circumsized, but it's still a no-brainer.

It would be like cutting your fingerprints off, letting scar tissue develop, and then wondering if you can still feel the same with your fingers. Of course not, the nerves are either gone or burried beneath tissue that contains no nerves.

Note that I am not saying a circumsized person enjoys sex less. That is not the case. Since it is "normal" for them, it is all they know.. and it is normal.
Scar tissue does not form.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
as an uncircumcized male i can tell you, if the skin is pulled back and my penis exposed to clothing w/o the foreskin there is significant pain. i can't imagine going thru this day in and day out. now, how can you tell me that there is NO sensory loss when you are like that permanently?? you would have to have be desensitized just to stay sane.

Enough said...
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
That's done surgically, the body didn't regenerate the nerves themselves. You really can't tell the difference?
It doesn't matter. The skin edges are not left flapping after a circumcision, they are sutured together. The nerves heal.

You asserted nerves can't heal. You were wrong.
Um ok. Canada (25%), UK (1%), Australia (20%), New Zealand (3%) are circumcised.
You stated 80% of the world's male population is uncircumcized. You're correct, and most of the world's uncircumcized population lives in impoverished developing countries.
as an uncircumcized male i can tell you, if the skin is pulled back and my penis exposed to clothing w/o the foreskin there is significant pain. i can't imagine going thru this day in and day out. now, how can you tell me that there is NO sensory loss when you are like that permanently?? you would have to have be desensitized just to stay sane.
There is a sensory loss, but its not perceptible by the person, nor is it crucial for sexual function or enjoyment, unless circumcision is performed during adulthood, then its very perceptible and often traumatic. However, post-circumcision adult males, after an initial period of healing and acclimation, which might take several months or more, no longer report 'decreased' sensation.
I think you're missing the point. Fact is, when you're circumcised, you have 60% less skin than someone who is not circumcised as an adult. And the head of the penis also loses some sensation due to exposure of the head, which is normally protected by the foreskin.
60% is an absurd amount of skin. I've seen a hundred circumcisions, never have I seen 60% of the skin removed. Try getting your numbers from a source other than anticircumcision zealots.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
It doesn't matter. The skin edges are not left flapping after a circumcision, they are sutured together. The nerves heal.

You asserted nerves can't heal. You were wrong.

No i didn't. I said nerves don't REGENERATE. Lost nerves are lost nerves.

You stated 80% of the world's male population is uncircumcized. You're correct, and most of the world's uncircumcized population lives in impoverished developing countries.

And yet the numbers show that more than 80% in INDUSTRIALIZED nations aren't circumcised....

There is a sensory loss, but its not perceptible by the person, nor is it crucial for sexual function or enjoyment, unless circumcision is performed during adulthood, then its very perceptible and often traumatic. However, post-circumcision adult males, after an initial period of healing and acclimation, which might take several months or more, no longer report 'decreased' sensation.

That goes against most anecdotal accounts by those who have undergone adult circumcision.

60% is an absurd amount of skin. I've seen a hundred circumcisions, never have I seen 60% of the skin removed. Try getting your numbers from a source other than anticircumcision zealots.

No it's not. Either you haven't seen a foreskin before or you're talking sh1t about seeing hundreds of circumcisions. That little bit in the head makes up a huge portion of the skin... it's folded much more heavily at the tip than the base.
 

Muck

Senior member
Feb 16, 2003
733
0
71
I think we know who's sporting a carrot in this thread. lol.

Moral of the story: Wash your penis every day and it won't smell dead.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Originally posted by: brigden
Originally posted by: Jmmsbnd007
Originally posted by: brigden
Sex is more pleasurable for the uncircumsized male; I would recommend he leave his hat intact. That idiot has issues.
How would you know?

It's a medical fact.
[CUT] [CUT] [CUT]
Leave it to the anticircumcision zealots to pounch upon some poor guy who is barely a month or two out of surgery to ask him about things like sensation.
rolleye.gif

How about some substantial PRO circumsision arguments from YOU, since i assume, from reading your posts and seeing you calling names that you're PRO circumsision.

The point is, i can tell you already RIGHT NOW that you will not be able to bring ONE substantial, logical reasoned PRO circumsision argument (because there IS none, excempt medical reasons)...and you (AGAIN) might end up calling non-circumsision supporters names.

How i see it:

Circumsision is done by some (not so bright) doctors, which (OF COURSE are circumsized for themselves)...so the kid gets circumsized without even thinking about the consequences, then the adult lets his own kids getting circumsized (because he is too, so was his dad before him)....and so on, and so on.... :)




 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
Originally posted by: tcsenter
That's done surgically, the body didn't regenerate the nerves themselves. You really can't tell the difference?
It doesn't matter. The skin edges are not left flapping after a circumcision, they are sutured together. The nerves heal.

You asserted nerves can't heal. You were wrong.
Um ok. Canada (25%), UK (1%), Australia (20%), New Zealand (3%) are circumcised.
You stated 80% of the world's male population is uncircumcized. You're correct, and most of the world's uncircumcized population lives in impoverished developing countries.
as an uncircumcized male i can tell you, if the skin is pulled back and my penis exposed to clothing w/o the foreskin there is significant pain. i can't imagine going thru this day in and day out. now, how can you tell me that there is NO sensory loss when you are like that permanently?? you would have to have be desensitized just to stay sane.
There is a sensory loss, but its not perceptible by the person, nor is it crucial for sexual function or enjoyment, unless circumcision is performed during adulthood, then its very perceptible and often traumatic. However, post-circumcision adult males, after an initial period of healing and acclimation, which might take several months or more, no longer report 'decreased' sensation.
I think you're missing the point. Fact is, when you're circumcised, you have 60% less skin than someone who is not circumcised as an adult. And the head of the penis also loses some sensation due to exposure of the head, which is normally protected by the foreskin.
60% is an absurd amount of skin. I've seen a hundred circumcisions, never have I seen 60% of the skin removed. Try getting your numbers from a source other than anticircumcision zealots.

It's a grey area, but this is true and what I've been saying all along. The argument is moot because most guys are happy with what they have, and they certainly feel pleasure from it, and they've never felt anything "better", so it is okay.

That doesen't mean that an uncircumsized glans can't be more sensive though; it indeed is, just by logic. It is calloused, it can't be as sensitive. Thats the whole purpose of a callous, to protect the sensitive tissue.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
That goes against most anecdotal accounts by those who have undergone adult circumcision.
Errr...no. Again, when anticircumcision zealots pounce upon some poor bastard who is barely a month or two post-circumcision, yes he is going to complain and complain loudly, as would be entirely expected and reasonable. Anticircumcision zealots will not do follow-up surveys on those men at one, two, three, or five year post-circumcision intervals, because as the length of time post-circumcision increases, fewer and fewer report any perceptible difference in sexual enjoyment or satisifaction after completely healing, resuming their sexual activities, and regaining their sexual confidence.
No it's not. Either you haven't seen a foreskin before or you're talking sh1t about seeing hundreds of circumcisions. That little bit in the head makes up a huge portion of the skin... it's folded much more heavily at the tip than the base.
I was a surgical assistant for nearly six years. I've personally participated in several dozen circumcisions. You have no clue what you're talking about. I do.
How about some substantial PRO circumsision arguments from YOU, since i assume, from reading your posts and seeing you calling names that you're PRO circumsision.
I'm pro-choice, not necessarily pro-circumcision, unlike my zealous anticircumcision couterparts, who not only must resort to misinformation and scare tactics to support their opposition to circumcision, but also advocate that the procedure be legally banned, removing the parent's right to choose what's best for their child.
The point is, i can tell you already RIGHT NOW that you will not be able to bring ONE substantial, logical reasoned PRO circumsision argument (because there IS none, excempt medical reasons)...and you (AGAIN) might end up calling non-circumsision supporters names.
Welcome to Anandtech Off Topic, you must be new here. You obviously haven't been following the other (three or four) circumcision threads in which I've contributed. Use the search feature, its your friend.
That doesen't mean that an uncircumsized glans can't be more sensive though; it indeed is, just by logic. It is calloused, it can't be as sensitive. Thats the whole purpose of a callous, to protect the sensitive tissue.
Well, I agree that a thickened covering over the glans reduces the sensistivity. You can regain some suppleness in a number of ways. However, most people don't really understand the exact reason we have a foreskin in the first place. I've heard some describe it as 'the way nature intended', but that's not really a justification for keeping it around.

The purpose of the foreskin is to establish what you could call a "competitive infection" to protect against pathogenic microbes from entering the body. It harbors 'normal flora' bacteria, which are largely benign because we have antibodies to them, while keeping foreign bacteria out. This normal flora also establishes through secretions an environment which is hostile to foreign or invading bacteria, no different than intestinal flora.

We don't sleep on soil full of decomposing matter, anymore. We don't stick our penises in vaginas with festering infections, anymore. Well, at least most of us dont. We don't swing through the trees, or run naked through thistles, anymore. We have invented clothes and baths and soap and all kinds of neat stuff in the last few thousand years which make the foreskin a liability rather than a benefit.

So yes, it is 'what nature intended', if you're a chimpanzee or a dog.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Jesus christ, STFU already!

There is no point in cutting skin off of your penis, but if you had it done as a baby you'll never know the difference.

What a dumbass thing to get all hyped up about.
 

adlep

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2001
5,287
6
81
The purpose of the foreskin is to establish what you could call a "competitive infection" to protect against pathogenic microbes from entering the body. It harbors 'normal flora' bacteria, which are largely benign because we have antibodies to them, while keeping foreign bacteria out. This normal flora also establishes through secretions an environment which is hostile to foreign or invading bacteria, no different than intestinal flora.

Threfore, how about removing the skin aroud the hat....
rolleye.gif