Jury awards $15M to NYPD cop who sued police officers for falsely arresting & beating

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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
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I'll offer a solution. Stop approaching this as a black and white (not intended to mean race, just extremes) problem.

----snip----

Replace the word officer/cop/LEO with the word criminal and your point is exactly the same and just as valid.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
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If you did, I bet you have a bit of insight into the life of the well-meaning officers out there (they do exist, I swear).

I agree that there are good and decent officers out there. I have a question for you though, an officer that covers up blatantly criminal activity including, but not limited to, committing perjury and knowingly allowing an innocent person to be jailed and charged with a crime is that officer a good and decent man?

When I get the opportunity to play this game again, I think I'll choose the side of the social justice warrior instead of police apologist. Because, honestly, blaming the person who got beat up / killed for inciting violence is just as stupid as believing police officers never sometimes act on their emotions when threatened. Or that when they do, it is inherent absolute proof that they are basic d-bags in their every day lives.

No one is saying that humans sometimes act on their emotions but actions have consequences. If you or I act on our emotions and in doing so we break the law then we are, as we should be, criminally punished for it. Now we are normal everyday people, law enforcement officers who are trained to deal with stressful situations be held to at least the same liability that you and I are?

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same empathy and understanding for other violent criminals? After all, we are talking about violent and criminal actions regardless if they are actually prosecuted or not.

What about the attitude of "That bastard that our 70 deep armed mob beat the fuck out of at his kids birthday party in front of his family and friends should consider himself lucky that we didn't arrest him on trumped up charges"?
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,015
2,845
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I agree that there are good and decent officers out there. I have a question for you though, an officer that covers up blatantly criminal activity including, but not limited to, committing perjury and knowingly allowing an innocent person to be jailed and charged with a crime is that officer a good and decent man?

If you read my posts, I have answered this numerous times. I stated that I agreed with the need to hold people accountable for their actions.

No one is saying that humans sometimes act on their emotions but actions have consequences. If you or I act on our emotions and in doing so we break the law then we are, as we should be, criminally punished for it. Now we are normal everyday people, law enforcement officers who are trained to deal with stressful situations be held to at least the same liability that you and I are?

See the same as above.

Just out of curiosity, do you have the same empathy and understanding for other violent criminals? After all, we are talking about violent and criminal actions regardless if they are actually prosecuted or not.

I do have empathy for those individuals. I have treated those individuals as a psychiatrist, and I take my duty to empathize with all comers and to promote neutral safety of exploration of any thought, feeling, or action in a therapeutic relationship with great pride (the only exception being an imminent threat of harm to self or other). I am not always successful in it, though I always want to be. What I have learned is that only 2 in the maybe thousand I have treated with such a past would I say were true sociopaths incapable of generally caring for the needs of others. This is also to say that the other 998 were still people who needed to develop this skill more.

The challenge is that empathy involves feeling another's conflicts and validating their human emotional response. Nothing about it obliges you to agree with their actions. I believe I have clearly stated in my posts that I do not agree with their actions, and I also believe they should be held accountable for them.

As a matter of course, I do not agree with the majority of the decisions made by my patients for which they seek my counsel. Most of the time, though, they only make those choices because their perceptions are that no one is considering their own needs and so they must take action themselves to meet them. By calling these people bad, it confirms to them that the action of taking advantage of another is necessary in order to meet their own needs. It fuels the fire. If you are able to help them identify their needs and validate their right to them, then you can orient them to understand the consequences of their actions without being blinded by the sleight they feel they have been dealt.

It is not easy and it is not quick progress even if possible, but it is the only way I know how to make real progress.

What about the attitude of "That bastard that our 70 deep armed mob beat the fuck out of at his kids birthday party in front of his family and friends should consider himself lucky that we didn't arrest him on trumped up charges"?

Once again, read all my posts as I have already answered this question.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,015
2,845
136
Well, I was hoping you would defend yourself by stating it is not your responsibility to fine tooth comb my posts looking for mixed messages when I was clearly taking the side of the perpetrators of this crime. Or, maybe even better, denial that I ever stated anything different.

Cause, then I could have pointed out how, despite intentionally pissing you off, I am not responsible for your action to project on me beliefs that I do not hold. Especially since I have explicitly stated that I do not hold them.

And that is a fine parallel between the off-duty officer in this story who incited anger by resisting instructions of the police men, yet is still in no way responsible for the actions of the men who beat him. Especially since he explicitly stated that he was the one calling on them for assistance.

With that I will cash in my chips, if I have any. When you see a 5 year-old throw a tantrum in a toy store because mom won't let him have the dinosaur, do you empathize with the child or the parent? Or how about when the parent reacts by throwing her own tantrum, screaming, crying, and hitting the child into submission?

Because I'm a parent, I have no problem going to the mother and saying that I understand how hard it is to that job. And because I was a child, I have no problem going to the child and saying that I know how hard it is when you want something and someone says you can't have it.

That I chose to empathize with the police officers in this thread is irrelevant. In doing so, I am empathizing with both. When I say I have treated maybe a thousand patients who are perpetrators of hateful crime, I exaggerated. Let's say it's 200. Yet, if I have treated 200 perpetrators of hateful crime then I have probably treated 800 victims of interpersonal trauma. Funny enough, that's still a total of 800 patients. Funny how having your rights unjustly abridged is a pre-requisite for believing that it's also a reasonable way to respect them in the future. Most people, of course, do not repeat this cycle, but some do, and I wonder if the way to abate this cycle would be instead to teach them how their rights are valid, how to identify them, and perhaps a healthier way to advocate for them.

Because the reason for both tantrums is because each wants something they can't have and they can't find another way for each other to understand this without pointless violence.

I know, I know, you will then point out to me that, in my imaginary scenario, the parent is at fault because they are the authority and they have the responsibility to do better.

WELL, NO S**** SHERLOCK. There's a reason why the man who was beaten in this instant was awarded millions of dollars. It was a really good reason.

So, now that we realize that we feel the same thing as each other and agree with each other on where the responsibility lies, how do we move on from our arguments?

The point is, just because you can find someone who has done something wrong, it in no way implies that anyone else has done anything right. I hope everyone can agree with me that the solution to the toddler tantrum is not to buy him the toy, right? Because all that does is reinforce the tantrum as a way to get your needs met.

Well, I can also appreciate that, while the mother in this scenario has done an awful thing, that does not make her an awful person or an awful mother. If you believe that the right thing to do in this scenario is to permanently take the mother away from the child because she is harmful, then you must also believe in legalizing cannibalism, because otherwise you're gonna have to find another solution to all of the orphans you are creating.

And, if you fight that, I will resist. Why? Because I was that kid sometimes who got yelled at or slapped in the face. And I love my parents dearly, and you would have ruined me had you taken me from them. Because, although they were far from perfect, they are also basically good humans and feel deeply guilty for any times they acted destructively on their own emotions when, in fact, I was also a difficult child.

For the record, I am walking away from this thread a loser. I did not start out intentionally trying to incite anyone, but when I did I am not sure it was very ethical. I do not it was definitely wrong to couple that with identifying myself as a psychiatrist. This is not a tactic I would imagine using with a patient, and I am fearful that in some small way I might have discouraged any of you from seeking mental health treatment in the future should you need it.

Thank you for playing the blame game with me. We will now all walk away losers, which was the only possible result anyway. The path forward from this insanity is to recognize that. Instead of feeling like a winner because you succeeded in proving that the other person was a loser, how about we all collectively appreciate that everyone loses when we act like toddlers? Maybe then we won't be so compelled to act like them.