Jumping Mouse Loses Federal Protection

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
By JOHN HEILPRIN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - The Preble's meadow jumping mouse, once seen as a costly impediment to development, is now viewed by the government as a critter that never really existed ? and is no longer in need of federal protection under the Endangered Species Act.

The Interior Department said Friday that new DNA research shows the 9-inch mouse, which can launch itself a foot and a half into the air and switch direction in mid-flight, is probably identical to another variety of mouse common enough not to need protection.

"That action is based on new research that indicated the Preble's meadow jumping mouse should not be classified as a separate mouse," Assistant Interior Secretary Craig Manson said Friday, calling it "an example of the use of best available science that was peer-reviewed."

Manson and other Interior officials cited a peer-reviewed but unpublished study by the Denver Museum of Nature and Science suggesting the Preble's mouse is genetically identical to the Bear Lodge meadow jumping mouse. The study was paid for by Interior's Fish and Wildlife Service, the Energy Department, the state of Wyoming and the Denver museum.

Interior officials acknowledged that 14 peer reviewers had split 8-6 to narrowly support the study's conclusions.

Based on the study, the Fish and Wildlife Service will propose removing the Preble's mouse from the government's endangered species list about a year from now. It will remain protected until then. The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Nearly 31,000 acres have been designated critical mouse habitat for the Preble's mouse along streams in Colorado and Wyoming, including large parts of Colorado's Front Range, where sprawl is booming amid the foothills and the prairie. The mouse also has blocked construction of reservoirs despite a continued drought there.

Environmentalist groups called Interior's decision a political one.

"This proposal is a devastating blow to open space across the Front Range, to good science and to the public interest," said Jeremy Nichols, conservation director for the Laramie, Wyo.-based Biodiversity Conservation Alliance.

The decision came in response to twin petitions filed in December 2003 by Wyoming and the Denver-based Coloradans for Water Conservation and Development, an advocacy group for farmers, businesses and home builders. Kent Holsinger, an attorney for the Denver group, said the meadow jumping mice are abundant enough to survive without federal protection.

Rep. Barbara Cubin (news, bio, voting record), R-Wyo., called the action "good news both for private property owners in Wyoming and for those who enjoy the use of our public lands."

Sen. Wayne Allard (news, bio, voting record), R-Colo., said the decision points out the need to revamp the Endangered Species Act. "Although the act has noble goals, listing errors harm not only the credibility of the act, but also harm people such as farmers and ranchers whose lives are affected by a faulty species listing," he said.

Builders, landowners and local governments have spent as much as $100 million by some estimates protecting the Preble's meadow jumping mouse since it was added to the federal list in 1998 as a species whose survival was considered "threatened."

Link

Sounds like a cool animal. Too bad people don't think it matters if it goes extinct.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
I don't know, if we need a reservoir for the drought, then we gotta build it even if it wipes out a mouse species.
Wouldn't it be relatively easy to check if the mouse is the same species? Just breed it with the common mouse, and if it can still produce offspring after a couple generations, you'll know.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Get a DNA sample and freeze it... or accept the fact that it's just a mouse.



almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Get a DNA sample and freeze it... or accept the fact that it's just a mouse.

almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Don't I know it.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Get a DNA sample and freeze it... or accept the fact that it's just a mouse.

almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Don't I know it.

Have any evidence for your knowledge?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Development is prohibited based on a study done in 1954. This is government at its finest.

If it were up to them, these environmentalist @ssholes would have us all living in caves.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Development is prohibited based on a study done in 1954. This is government at its finest.

If it were up to them, these environmentalist @ssholes would have us all living in caves.

So if the study was from 2004 would you have a different opinion?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

local example

read a few...

The ESA has also been ineffective at helping endangered species recover as well.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Development is prohibited based on a study done in 1954. This is government at its finest.

If it were up to them, these environmentalist @ssholes would have us all living in caves.

So if the study was from 2004 would you have a different opinion?

No, because I happen to know that private land owners know how to best preserve their own land. Furthermore, I happen to know that over a period of millions of years at least 99.9% of all species on Earth have become extinct. It is a natural process and not something that the government could even put a dent in, in terms of stopping this process.

My statement was referring to the fact that the government has laws based on studies done 50 years ago. Even people who believe in government regulation would be hard pressed to support this kind of decadence.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

local example

read a few...

The ESA has also been ineffective at helping endangered species recover as well.

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for evidence that any development project can be stopped. That would prety much require proof that all development projects kill a rodent or bug (hint: study or statistics, not one local example). But you were just talking nonsense so you don't have it.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

Evidence of outrageous environmentalism.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

Evidence of outrageous environmentalism.

Sorry, that isn't evidence that "almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction."
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Development is prohibited based on a study done in 1954. This is government at its finest.

If it were up to them, these environmentalist @ssholes would have us all living in caves.

So if the study was from 2004 would you have a different opinion?

No...
Why am I not suprised? Don't mention the year of a study if you don't really care anyway.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

Evidence of outrageous environmentalism.

Sorry, that isn't evidence that "almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction."

Pff, aside from environmental laws, the government can stop any development that it wants to. In a lot of places you have to get permits for practically anything you build and the government can deny you permits for any number of reasons. Here in California it happens to be very difficult to get permits for residential development, while it is very easy to get permits to build a strip mall. Why? No reason except for the fact that strip malls bring in sales tax revenue.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: Dissipate
The Preble's mouse has been considered a distinct subspecies based on a 1954 study that looked at the skulls of three mice and the skins of 11 others.

Development is prohibited based on a study done in 1954. This is government at its finest.

If it were up to them, these environmentalist @ssholes would have us all living in caves.

So if the study was from 2004 would you have a different opinion?

No...
Why am I not suprised? Don't mention the year of a study if you don't really care anyway.

I didn't mention it for my sake, I was trying to point it out to other people, as I clearly stated in the post above.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: charrison
almost any developement project can be stopped by looking for some rodent or bug and claiming it will driven to extinction.

Have any evidence for that statement? I didn't think so...

local example

read a few...

The ESA has also been ineffective at helping endangered species recover as well.

I didn't ask for an example. I asked for evidence that any development project can be stopped. That would prety much require proof that all development projects kill a rodent or bug (hint: study or statistics, not one local example). But you were just talking nonsense so you don't have it.



There are many local examples....one only has to find a bug or rodent and call the esa....legal battles start after that. This happens far more often than it should.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
While some of the posters are correct in pointing out that environmentalists will use whatever tools they can find to thwart development they find offensive, it really doesn't change the effects of irresponsible development and its effects on the taxpayers and our shared environment.

And there's this, from Dissipate-

"No, because I happen to know that private land owners know how to best preserve their own land."

Which is a complete non sequiter on several levels. I'm sure that the ancient Easter Islanders knew best, too... Vast acreages in the western plains were denuded by those folks who knew best, and also by absentee landowners during the Reagan years, in response to changing subsidy requirements. They'd subsidize non-farming on virtually any plowed land, which promptly led to huge acreages of non viable "farmland" being bought & plowed under for the theoretical value of the crops that weren't being raised...

And we're still dealing with the results of mining practices from over 100 years ago, and the dustbowl, not to mention more recent examples like the Summitville mine disaster...

Current issues center around water, or the lack thereof, and open space. Recent housing developments depend on groundwater reserves that won't last 30 years, the length of most of the mortgages... so the homeowners will be crying to the State and the Feds to "do something" while the developers are free to move on to greener pastures... recent growth in the Colorado Springs area has overwhelmed their sewage disposal system, poisoning the Fountain river, but their strong Christian orientation somehow prevents any punitive action at any level...

Hey, we're at the top of of every major western watershed, guys, so, uhh, drink up, try not to think about it...

Environmental issues are the achilles heel of radical Libertarian philosophies like Dissipate's Anarcho-Capitalism, but they try not to notice... basically, I'll do any damned fooled thing I want, and the rest of you can deal with it later....
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
While some of the posters are correct in pointing out that environmentalists will use whatever tools they can find to thwart development they find offensive, it really doesn't change the effects of irresponsible development and its effects on the taxpayers and our shared environment.

And there's this, from Dissipate-

"No, because I happen to know that private land owners know how to best preserve their own land."

Which is a complete non sequiter on several levels. I'm sure that the ancient Easter Islanders knew best, too... Vast acreages in the western plains were denuded by those folks who knew best, and also by absentee landowners during the Reagan years, in response to changing subsidy requirements. They'd subsidize non-farming on virtually any plowed land, which promptly led to huge acreages of non viable "farmland" being bought & plowed under for the theoretical value of the crops that weren't being raised...

And we're still dealing with the results of mining practices from over 100 years ago, and the dustbowl, not to mention more recent examples like the Summitville mine disaster...

Current issues center around water, or the lack thereof, and open space. Recent housing developments depend on groundwater reserves that won't last 30 years, the length of most of the mortgages... so the homeowners will be crying to the State and the Feds to "do something" while the developers are free to move on to greener pastures... recent growth in the Colorado Springs area has overwhelmed their sewage disposal system, poisoning the Fountain river, but their strong Christian orientation somehow prevents any punitive action at any level...

Hey, we're at the top of of every major western watershed, guys, so, uhh, drink up, try not to think about it...

Environmental issues are the achilles heel of radical Libertarian philosophies like Dissipate's Anarcho-Capitalism, but they try not to notice... basically, I'll do any damned fooled thing I want, and the rest of you can deal with it later....

Let's see here, farm subsidies and publically owned sewage systems. Hmmm......

Environmental issues are hardly the achilles heal of anarcho-capitalism, as the state has always been the worst violator of the environment.
 
May 10, 2001
2,669
0
0
it?s a mouse, kill it.
It?s an animal, kill it for human benefit
It?s a JUMPING mouse! Kill it
The mouse, it?s a field mouse? we?re not running out of mice to live in our fields.
No mouse deserves 31,000 acres
?Environmentalist groups called Interior's decision a political one.? What?!
I don?t believe that this group actually worked for the will of the people, in our government, <sarcasm>those jerks.</sarcasm>

Oh and the conclusion of the article:
Although the act has noble goals, listing errors harm not only the credibility of the act, but also harm people such as farmers and ranchers whose lives are affected by a faulty species listing,

Builders, landowners and local governments have spent as much as $100 million by some estimates protecting the Preble's meadow jumping mouse since it was added to the federal list in 1998 as a species whose survival was considered "threatened."

It?s a mouse, I?m for killing it, actually, you don?t need to, it?s going to live anyway and the stupid thing has cost way to much, just stop spending money and resources that could have gone to humans not field mince.

I want corporations to be responsible for the cost of the pollution they produce, but protecting a stupid mouse for millions of dollars and thousands of acres in the face of poverty and hunger around the world is morally repugnant.
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
While some of the posters are correct in pointing out that environmentalists will use whatever tools they can find to thwart development they find offensive, it really doesn't change the effects of irresponsible development and its effects on the taxpayers and our shared environment.

And there's this, from Dissipate-

"No, because I happen to know that private land owners know how to best preserve their own land."

Which is a complete non sequiter on several levels. I'm sure that the ancient Easter Islanders knew best, too... Vast acreages in the western plains were denuded by those folks who knew best, and also by absentee landowners during the Reagan years, in response to changing subsidy requirements. They'd subsidize non-farming on virtually any plowed land, which promptly led to huge acreages of non viable "farmland" being bought & plowed under for the theoretical value of the crops that weren't being raised...

And we're still dealing with the results of mining practices from over 100 years ago, and the dustbowl, not to mention more recent examples like the Summitville mine disaster...

Current issues center around water, or the lack thereof, and open space. Recent housing developments depend on groundwater reserves that won't last 30 years, the length of most of the mortgages... so the homeowners will be crying to the State and the Feds to "do something" while the developers are free to move on to greener pastures... recent growth in the Colorado Springs area has overwhelmed their sewage disposal system, poisoning the Fountain river, but their strong Christian orientation somehow prevents any punitive action at any level...

Hey, we're at the top of of every major western watershed, guys, so, uhh, drink up, try not to think about it...

Environmental issues are the achilles heel of radical Libertarian philosophies like Dissipate's Anarcho-Capitalism, but they try not to notice... basically, I'll do any damned fooled thing I want, and the rest of you can deal with it later....

Let's see here, farm subsidies and publically owned sewage systems. Hmmm......

Environmental issues are hardly the achilles heal of anarcho-capitalism, as the state has always been the worst violator of the environment.

good point, but a compleatly different issue from spending millions of dollars and thousands of acres on a field mouse.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
The "spending" issue is pretty vaguely defined, guys... I suppose if I made a few million dollars in Republican campaign contributions in an effort to add to that expense, counted the money I didn't make by not developing, and the actual expense of hiring pseudo-scientists to prove the little critter isn't really endangered, at all... it might add up to $100M, according to "some" rather ill-defined "sources"...

Maybe, otoh, protection of this mouse has saved taxpayers a helluva lot more than that on roads, sewage, water and other resource development... stuff that developers definitely don't want to pay for.
 

HalosPuma

Banned
Jul 11, 2004
498
0
0
Good, it's about damn time this ESA crap got rolled back, especially when it hinders business growth. Let's see: economic growth and infrastructure growth (dams) which will Americans can benefit from, or... a rodent? The choice is very obvious. :thumbsup: If they are so worried about it, capture a few and put them in zoos.