Judge Rejects Request for NSA Documents

[StepUp]

My girlfriend is living abroad in Colombia. I wonder if the NSA is having a field day with my conversations, under the impression I'm dealing with the FARC or ELN.

WASHINGTON Nov 20, 2006 (AP)? The National Security Agency is not required to release details about its secret wiretapping program, a federal judge said Monday.

The People for the American Way Foundation, a liberal advocacy group, sued to obtain records under the Freedom of Information Act. The group sought to find out how many wiretaps were approved and who reviewed the program.

President Bush has acknowledged the existence of the program, which he calls the Terrorist Surveillance Program. The National Security Agency monitors phone calls and e-mails between people in the U.S. and people in other countries when a link to terrorism is suspected.

Civil liberties group criticize it as an expansion of presidential power, and a federal judge has said it is unconstitutional. The Justice Department says it is a necessary tool to fight terrorism.

The NSA denied the request for documents, saying the records would jeopardize national security. The advocacy group argued that the law can't be used to protect the government from disclosing details about illegal programs.

U.S. Judge Ellen Segal Huvelle disagreed, saying that even if the program is ultimately determined to be illegal, it doesn't change the fact that the materials are classified and are not covered by the Freedom of Information Act.

Edit: Link

 

[conjur]

Well, that solves everything for Buscho, eh? All they have to do now is classify every document they've ever produced. They can be the new Untouchables.


🙁

 

[imported_Aelius]

This will have to go to SCOTUS.

 

[DealMonkey]

I believe this is a different suit than the one brought by the EFF...

 

[ayabe]

"The group sought to find out how many wiretaps were approved and who reviewed the program."

How is releasing this information a threat to national security? They aren't requesting a list of names of the people who were/are being wiretapped.

As has always been my gut feeling on this, whether they want to admit it or not, I believe they are basically tapping everyone, not directly, but are using computers to sort through it all looking for keywords and phrases. That's really the only reason I see for them not releasing this information, because the answer would be oohhhhhh around 300 million people.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: conjur
Well, that solves everything for Buscho, eh? All they have to do now is classify every document they've ever produced. They can be the new Untouchables.


🙁

Then let's hope that whoever comes after Bush and Friends will opt to declassify a lot of this BS.

Originally posted by: ayabe
"The group sought to find out how many wiretaps were approved and who reviewed the program."

How is releasing this information a threat to national security? They aren't requesting a list of names of the people who were/are being wiretapped.

As has always been my gut feeling on this, whether they want to admit it or not, I believe they are basically tapping everyone, not directly, but are using computers to sort through it all looking for keywords and phrases. That's really the only reason I see for them not releasing this information, because the answer would be oohhhhhh around 300 million people.

This is why I like to, in threads such as this, add in stuff like this:
Uranium enrichment for weapons
Destroy government buildings
Dirty bombs
Viable nuclear material
Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Israel
Suicide bomber
Detonator caps
Cellphone-triggered car bombs
9/11 copycat


Wave to Echelon!
Hi FBI, CIA. Welcome to P&N! You shouldn't even be here, what with the illegal searching an all.
😛

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
This is why I like to, in threads such as this, add in stuff like this:
Uranium enrichment for weapons
Destroy government buildings
Dirty bombs
Viable nuclear material
Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Israel
Suicide bomber
Detonator caps
Cellphone-triggered car bombs
9/11 copycat


Wave to Echelon!
Hi FBI, CIA. Welcome to P&N! You shouldn't even be here, what with the illegal searching an all.
😛

Great idea.

I think as a protest Americans who value liberty should start a nationwide program where every email and every phone call is laced with "forbidden" words. If 50 million Americans started flooding the pipeline with billions of "suspect" communications every week, we could bring Big Brother to his knees.

explosives
poison gas
attack
infiltrate
Allah
Washington, D.C.
anthrax
kidnap
hijack airplanes
safe house
Bin Laden
hostages
millions will die

 

[DealMonkey]

Just, please, for the love of God, don't say that you want to kill the president. Don't do it! No!

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ayabe
As has always been my gut feeling on this, whether they want to admit it or not, I believe they are basically tapping everyone, not directly, but are using computers to sort through it all looking for keywords and phrases. That's really the only reason I see for them not releasing this information, because the answer would be oohhhhhh around 300 million people.

That's precisely what they're doing.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Just, please, for the love of God, don't say that you want to kill the president. Don't do it! No!

Bahahah, you just did 😉

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ayabe
As has always been my gut feeling on this, whether they want to admit it or not, I believe they are basically tapping everyone, not directly, but are using computers to sort through it all looking for keywords and phrases. That's really the only reason I see for them not releasing this information, because the answer would be oohhhhhh around 300 million people.

That's precisely what they're doing.

Well I'm glad my tinfoil hat is receiving the same signals as some others around here.

Frankly, they should be using all of that processing power to Fold@Home.

What I don't understand is why they don't admit it, or some lawmaker who knows what's what won't come clean with us about it. It's their responsibility. This is a clear violation of our rights and does not yield any positive results, unless you think hippies and environmental groups are a threat to national security.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, that's precisely why they won't admit it. I really believe this is more of a constitutional power play then it is a national security program. Why warrantlessly wiretap people when the FISA court pretty much never denies warrants? None of their explanations for why they bypassed the court have really made much sense. (and they certainly didn't make enough sense to break laws for)

If you look at what Bush and Cheney have been doing with signing statements, these domestic spying programs, and a host of other things, is trying to reclaim a significant amount executive power that they feel was "wrongly" reduced after Watergate. (Imagine that, when the president is found to be breaking the law, people try to stop it) I'm fairly certain that this program is more of a middle finger to congress then anything else.

Note: This doesn't make it A.) Any more legal B.) Any less evil.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ayabe
As has always been my gut feeling on this, whether they want to admit it or not, I believe they are basically tapping everyone, not directly, but are using computers to sort through it all looking for keywords and phrases. That's really the only reason I see for them not releasing this information, because the answer would be oohhhhhh around 300 million people.

That's precisely what they're doing.

Well I'm glad my tinfoil hat is receiving the same signals as some others around here.

Frankly, they should be using all of that processing power to Fold@Home.

What I don't understand is why they don't admit it, or some lawmaker who knows what's what won't come clean with us about it. It's their responsibility. This is a clear violation of our rights and does not yield any positive results, unless you think hippies and environmental groups are a threat to national security.

It's also why they can't get FISA warrants. The FISA court judges couldn't write 'em fast enough to cover all 300,000,000 Americans.

 

[Rainsford]

I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

And as a side note, did anyone else notice that in this article from the so-called "liberal media" that it never once referred to the program as "warrantless" or explained WHY people think it's illegal and called the group requesting the documents a "liberal advocacy group", totally leaving out WHAT they are advocating? Maybe not right-wing bias, but not exactly lefty either...

 

[imported_Aelius]

A few points first.

Fact:
- Echelon was first aimed at the American people under Clinton.
- Congress has passed laws that strip civil rights sometimes unanimously (Real ID Act) and therefore there is no logic behind the idea that this program is a middle finger aimed at Congress. They are in fact working hand in hand.

Most likely people like us have a file going with the FBI, supposedly you can request that info via Freedom of Information Act (perhaps not anymore), and a generic national terrorist watch list. Once we get a chip via Drivers License and our DNA, retna or finger print is collected for the National ID Card in 2008 it will simply be that much easier to keep tabs on everyone.

It will be hard to get anywhere without the ID card once it's mandatory to be scanned to board a plane, train, bus, a cab and eventually even to buy food. In fact a RFID chip the size of a grain of sand is available and possibly in use by the Gillette company. Some reports indicate they scrapped the idea of using it. I don't buy that. It's a corporate wet dream to know everything about everyone including your medical status as well as your buying habit. Since we live under Corporatism that information ends up in the hands of government as easily as it does big business.

Anyway since some of you decided to red flag this thread by a factor of ten I'm sure it will be read soon.

*waves to Echelon NSA staff* ,,i,,

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

Of course it is, however we profess to be a country governed by the rule of law. If some have circumvented it, that does not give license for others to do the same. If the Dems have even a tiny pair, they can amend laws regarding classification. My bet is that there won't be a serious attempt made.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

Of course it is, however we profess to be a country governed by the rule of law. If some have circumvented it, that does not give license for others to do the same. If the Dems have even a tiny pair, they can amend laws regarding classification. My bet is that there won't be a serious attempt made.

Nullification of law resides at 3 levels.

Executive (both state and federal), Judiciary (both state and federal), and the jury (jury nullification).

My understanding is that the Judge could have ruled that the law protecting Echelon does not protect it from granting access to the information requested. Yet also rule that it can not be allowed access through the Freedom of Information Act since it does not allow for this level of access. Not sure if that's possible. Need a lawyer here to answer that one and explain what would or could happen in such a case. Maybe it would be kicked up the chain to a higher court?

Either way whenever the application of a law is brought into court it can be nullified. That's how prohibition was lifted.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: shira
Great idea.

I think as a protest Americans who value liberty should start a nationwide program where every email and every phone call is laced with "forbidden" words. If 50 million Americans started flooding the pipeline with billions of "suspect" communications every week, we could bring Big Brother to his knees.

explosives
poison gas
attack
infiltrate
Allah
Washington, D.C.
anthrax
kidnap
hijack airplanes
safe house
Bin Laden
hostages
millions will die

Easy way: add the keywords to your sig. 😀

Note: this might not be a good idea though, for "social" reasons on the forums. Maybe we need separate sigs shown only in the P&N forum.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Jeff7
This is why I like to, in threads such as this, add in stuff like this:
Uranium enrichment for weapons
Destroy government buildings
Dirty bombs
Viable nuclear material
Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Israel
Suicide bomber
Detonator caps
Cellphone-triggered car bombs
9/11 copycat


Wave to Echelon!
Hi FBI, CIA. Welcome to P&N! You shouldn't even be here, what with the illegal searching an all.
😛

Great idea.

I think as a protest Americans who value liberty should start a nationwide program where every email and every phone call is laced with "forbidden" words. If 50 million Americans started flooding the pipeline with billions of "suspect" communications every week, we could bring Big Brother to his knees.

explosives
poison gas
attack
infiltrate
Allah
Washington, D.C.
anthrax
kidnap
hijack airplanes
safe house
Bin Laden
hostages
millions will die

Wow I am surraounded by idiots! You guys are forgetting one thing. The calls must be to or from outside of the country to a suspected TERRORIST.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

Of course it is, however we profess to be a country governed by the rule of law. If some have circumvented it, that does not give license for others to do the same. If the Dems have even a tiny pair, they can amend laws regarding classification. My bet is that there won't be a serious attempt made.

Nullification of law resides at 3 levels.

Executive (both state and federal), Judiciary (both state and federal), and the jury (jury nullification).

My understanding is that the Judge could have ruled that the law protecting Echelon does not protect it from granting access to the information requested. Yet also rule that it can not be allowed access through the Freedom of Information Act since it does not allow for this level of access. Not sure if that's possible. Need a lawyer here to answer that one and explain what would or could happen in such a case. Maybe it would be kicked up the chain to a higher court?

Either way whenever the application of a law is brought into court it can be nullified. That's how prohibition was lifted.

This judge appears VERY myopic if not downright dismissive of the rule of law. In essence, she's saying the public can make NO inquiries about a program that even the government admits is NOT a secret. That's just plain bizarre!

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

Of course it is, however we profess to be a country governed by the rule of law. If some have circumvented it, that does not give license for others to do the same. If the Dems have even a tiny pair, they can amend laws regarding classification. My bet is that there won't be a serious attempt made.

Nullification of law resides at 3 levels.

Executive (both state and federal), Judiciary (both state and federal), and the jury (jury nullification).

My understanding is that the Judge could have ruled that the law protecting Echelon does not protect it from granting access to the information requested. Yet also rule that it can not be allowed access through the Freedom of Information Act since it does not allow for this level of access. Not sure if that's possible. Need a lawyer here to answer that one and explain what would or could happen in such a case. Maybe it would be kicked up the chain to a higher court?

Either way whenever the application of a law is brought into court it can be nullified. That's how prohibition was lifted.

This judge appears VERY myopic if not downright dismissive of the rule of law. In essence, she's saying the public can make NO inquiries about a program that even the government admits is NOT a secret. That's just plain bizarre!

Aren't they asking for classified information to be released?

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Jeff7
This is why I like to, in threads such as this, add in stuff like this:
Uranium enrichment for weapons
Destroy government buildings
Dirty bombs
Viable nuclear material
Iran Iraq Saudi Arabia Israel
Suicide bomber
Detonator caps
Cellphone-triggered car bombs
9/11 copycat


Wave to Echelon!
Hi FBI, CIA. Welcome to P&N! You shouldn't even be here, what with the illegal searching an all.
😛

Great idea.

I think as a protest Americans who value liberty should start a nationwide program where every email and every phone call is laced with "forbidden" words. If 50 million Americans started flooding the pipeline with billions of "suspect" communications every week, we could bring Big Brother to his knees.

explosives
poison gas
attack
infiltrate
Allah
Washington, D.C.
anthrax
kidnap
hijack airplanes
safe house
Bin Laden
hostages
millions will die

Wow I am surraounded by idiots! You guys are forgetting one thing. The calls must be to or from outside of the country to a suspected TERRORIST.

Echelon is a data mining drag net. Collects some 100,000,000+ emails/calls/etc a day (possibly per hour or even minute). Echelon is not something even the average NSA employee would know about in any detail at all. Rumours at best. What we know comes from people who worked on the project and even they only know what they were working on and not the entire system.

As best we know you cannot pick and choose where it gathers. It gathers everything that pops up on the grid (the world) with key words.

To this day we do not know everything about the project.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I hate to say it, but I agree with the judge. Classified materials are not subject to FOIA, period. I don't agree with the idea of using the classification system to hide wrongdoing either, but how do you make exceptions to the FOIA rule? We don't want ALL classified material subject to requests, and how can we ask for just the evidence of wrongdoing? I hope any wrongdoing is exposed as much as the next person who loves their country, but this is not a good way to go about that. What we need is the same thing we had LAST time the President thought he was above the law, another Church Committee and other congressional investigations...something our new congress, with restored testicular fortitude, will probably do if necessary.

The problem is, classification seems to be increasingly used as a means of avoiding necessary scrutiny rather than protecting what is legitimately sensitive information. The fact that, for example, the very existence of the NSA wiretapping program is classified is laughable.

Of course it is, however we profess to be a country governed by the rule of law. If some have circumvented it, that does not give license for others to do the same. If the Dems have even a tiny pair, they can amend laws regarding classification. My bet is that there won't be a serious attempt made.

Nullification of law resides at 3 levels.

Executive (both state and federal), Judiciary (both state and federal), and the jury (jury nullification).

My understanding is that the Judge could have ruled that the law protecting Echelon does not protect it from granting access to the information requested. Yet also rule that it can not be allowed access through the Freedom of Information Act since it does not allow for this level of access. Not sure if that's possible. Need a lawyer here to answer that one and explain what would or could happen in such a case. Maybe it would be kicked up the chain to a higher court?

Either way whenever the application of a law is brought into court it can be nullified. That's how prohibition was lifted.

This judge appears VERY myopic if not downright dismissive of the rule of law. In essence, she's saying the public can make NO inquiries about a program that even the government admits is NOT a secret. That's just plain bizarre!

Aren't they asking for classified information to be released?

Judge can rule against the law that upholds the classification of these documents. It would open up a big can of worms and rightly so. It's one thing to classify things we don't want our enemies to know that puts lives at risk etc. It's quite another to do the same thing to save a politician from having to face accountability for their actions. Clinton was a prime example of someone who passed hundreds of secret Executive Orders that even Congress cannot see. Regardless of the party no politician should have this power and government has no right to pass such laws, effectively granting immunity to those who's necks are on the line.

My question is where is the outrage? Why are these people not sitting in jail awaiting trial for all the ****** they have put our nations through? Not just the US but Canada, UK, Australia etc People tend to forget that many nations copy what the US does almost verbatim. It's fvcking scary.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Judge can rule against the law that upholds the classification of these documents. It would open up a big can of worms and rightly so. It's one thing to classify things we don't want our enemies to know that puts lives at risk etc. It's quite another to do the same thing to save a politician from having to face accountability for their actions. Clinton was a prime example of someone who passed hundreds of secret Executive Orders that even Congress cannot see. Regardless of the party no politician should have this power and government has no right to pass such laws, effectively granting immunity to those who's necks are on the line.

My question is where is the outrage? Why are these people not sitting in jail awaiting trial for all the ****** they have put our nations through? Not just the US but Canada, UK, Australia etc People tend to forget that many nations copy what the US does almost verbatim. It's fvcking scary.

I am outraged, throw BJ in jail!