John Oliver on mental health in USA

[mizzou]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGY6DqB1HX8

He touches on a lot of talking points that I've sided with over the years.

Also, he seems to be the spiritual successor to Jon Stewart more then anyone else Comedy Central has tried to replace him with

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Go go John Oliver effect!

 

[Attic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGY6DqB1HX8

He touches on a lot of talking points that I've sided with over the years.

Also, he seems to be the spiritual successor to Jon Stewart more then anyone else Comedy Central has tried to replace him with

Werd.


Lot of good takes from the show. He exceeds Stweart b/c he's not a liberal sac hugger, he's vicious where appropriate to both sides of the politically absurd that permeates all politics these days.

 

[Strk]

Werd.


Lot of good takes from the show. He exceeds Stweart b/c he's not a liberal sac hugger, he's vicious where appropriate to both sides of the politically absurd that permeates all politics these days.

I think that has more to do with him being British. There's more of a bluntness to the way British people are about things.

 

[Fenixgoon]

great job by Oliver as usual :thumbsup:

 

[werepossum]

Meh. Why is it so bad to associate the mentally ill with mass shootings but okay to associate guns with mass shootings? Vastly more guns never hurt anyone, and pretty much all guns never hurt anyone on their own. No gun ever marched itself to the local theater, elementary school or church and began shooting. No gun high on bath salts ever murdered someone and ate his face. Can't really say that about the mentally ill.

As far as why there is no money for treating the mentally ill, let's look at the eight federal agencies and 112 programs (his count.) Any large organization tends to become more about its own existence and less about its reason for existing unless some powerful force makes it otherwise. If we want to better treat the mentally ill, we need to reduce those eight to one, block grant the money, and very stringently restrict (and supervise) how it is used.

 

[mizzou]

Meh. Why is it so bad to associate the mentally ill with mass shootings but okay to associate guns with mass shootings? Vastly more guns never hurt anyone, and pretty much all guns never hurt anyone on their own. No gun ever marched itself to the local theater, elementary school or church and began shooting. No gun high on bath salts ever murdered someone and ate his face. Can't really say that about the mentally ill.

As far as why there is no money for treating the mentally ill, let's look at the eight federal agencies and 112 programs (his count.) Any large organization tends to become more about its own existence and less about its reason for existing unless some powerful force makes it otherwise. If we want to better treat the mentally ill, we need to reduce those eight to one, block grant the money, and very stringently restrict (and supervise) how it is used.

That's not a terrible idea honestly. But it's going to be complex, probably more then creating the homeland security agency.

I think the other, very large problem, is that people really don't have the stomach to look at the $$$ when it comes to the cost of adequately treating the mentally ill. It's going to be a smack in the face when people see the bill up front vs. seeing the bill split up into their monthly medical premiums or prison costs.

But if we start taking these people out of emergency rooms, out of prisons, and out of the streets....it would be a freaking godsend to the safety/security and well being of this country. I honestly think that would be one of the best things we could do.

The sad fact is that we NEED to re institutionalize. We don't need giant death houses, we just need facilities built specifically for treating people with mental health problems.

Oliver was stating it was bad because it stigmatizes those with mental health problems. He is accurate in that most are non-violent and tend to be victims. If we associate mental health with mass shootings, it will marginalize a group that is quite fragile.

 

[fskimospy]

Meh. Why is it so bad to associate the mentally ill with mass shootings but okay to associate guns with mass shootings? Vastly more guns never hurt anyone, and pretty much all guns never hurt anyone on their own. No gun ever marched itself to the local theater, elementary school or church and began shooting. No gun high on bath salts ever murdered someone and ate his face. Can't really say that about the mentally ill.

As far as why there is no money for treating the mentally ill, let's look at the eight federal agencies and 112 programs (his count.) Any large organization tends to become more about its own existence and less about its reason for existing unless some powerful force makes it otherwise. If we want to better treat the mentally ill, we need to reduce those eight to one, block grant the money, and very stringently restrict (and supervise) how it is used.

The first reason that springs to mind is that people who would likely be classified as mentally ill commit a very small fraction of mass shootings while guns are, by definition, used in 100% of mass shootings. That seems like an important difference.

Improved access to mental health care is a valuable thing in its own right. It will do little to stop mass shootings though.

 

[mizzou]

The first reason that springs to mind is that people who would likely be classified as mentally ill commit a very small fraction of mass shootings while guns are, by definition, used in 100% of mass shootings. That seems like an important difference.

Improved access to mental health care is a valuable thing in its own right. It will do little to stop mass shootings though.

You could argue that anyone who commits the crime of murder, is to some degree, mentally ill. It's very hard to logically justify murder in the USA without going to down the rabbit hole of poor mental health.

For example, Crime of passion is just another way of saying someone lost control of themselves. Losing control is a mental health problem. Doesn't mean you have some sort of clinical diagnoses like bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, but you can sorta see where this can lead.

But I agree with you that we need to be careful about saying "Mentally Ill" and assocating that term with things that really don't have much to do with the "Mentally Ill". My problem is how we use that term. The spectrum can go from very light forms to very heavy forms.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Tossing out the crazy claim protects two things:
- the shooter
- guns

I am pro-gun, but, I am anti-bullshit. And labeling one type of mass shooter a terrorist and another type of mass shooter a crazy person is utter bullshit.

Mass shooters are either crazy or terrorists. And do you really want to reform ISIS and provide them with mental health treatment? No.

Mass shooter have an agenda; they want to harm and kill MANY people they don't like.

Terrorists have an agenda; they want to harm and kill MANY people they don't like.

 

[realibrad]

Tossing out the crazy claim protects two things:
- the shooter
- guns

I am pro-gun, but, I am anti-bullshit. And labeling one type of mass shooter a terrorist and another type of mass shooter a crazy person is utter bullshit.

Mass shooters are either crazy or terrorists. And do you really want to reform ISIS and provide them with mental health treatment? No.

Mass shooter have an agenda; they want to harm and kill MANY people they don't like.

Terrorists have an agenda; they want to harm and kill MANY people they don't like.

You realize you can get the same outcome through different motivations right?

If I tell one person pressing a button will save their life, and I tell the other person pressing the button will give them $100 and both press the button, the outcome is the button will be pressed because neither will happen. Both did the same thing but for totally different reasons.

There is also a great argument that ISIS followers are mentally Ill. Not all Illness can be treated though. Some things require exclusion from society. That can mean imprisonment or some may advocate death.

 

[Newell Steamer]

You realize you can get the same outcome through different motivations right?

If I tell one person pressing a button will save their life, and I tell the other person pressing the button will give them $100 and both press the button, the outcome is the button will be pressed because neither will happen. Both did the same thing but for totally different reasons.

There is also a great argument that ISIS followers are mentally Ill. Not all Illness can be treated though. Some things require exclusion from society. That can mean imprisonment or some may advocate death.

My heart does not bleed.

Mental illness is neurosis and something that prevents the person from functioning in a normal manner. Through the years, crazy people have become:
- mentally handicapped
- autistic
- neurotic
- quirky
- entertainers

Mental illness is salvageable, provided we as a society treat the ill in a proper manner. We have improved, but as Oliver points out, still have a long way to go.

Terrorism is evil. It takes a certain kind of person to harness their own rage and direct it to planning, preparing and murdering many people because they disapprove of a social normal / practice. Crazy people aren't coordinated - they need help or assistance in some manner to pull off even the very basics of everyday life. Yet, a terrorist trains and coordinates a considerable number of factors to execute their agenda. Sounds like a mass shooter to me.

 

[realibrad]

My heart does not bleed.

Mental illness is neurosis and something that prevents the person from functioning in a normal manner. Through the years, crazy people have become:
- mentally handicapped
- autistic
- neurotic
- quirky
- entertainers

Mental illness is salvageable, provided we as a society treat the ill in a proper manner. We have improved, but as Oliver points out, still have a long way to go.

Terrorism is evil. It takes a certain kind of person to harness their own rage and direct it to planning, preparing and murdering many people because they disapprove of a social normal / practice. Crazy people aren't coordinated - they need help or assistance in some manner to pull off even the very basics of everyday life. Yet, a terrorist trains and coordinates a considerable number of factors to execute their agenda. Sounds like a mass shooter to me.

It seems you don't have a great understanding of mental illness. Not all mentally ill people are unable to function in society. Take depression, which is a mental illness. Are depressed people not able to coordinate?

 

[Blackjack200]

You could argue that anyone who commits the crime of murder, is to some degree, mentally ill. It's very hard to logically justify murder in the USA without going to down the rabbit hole of poor mental health.

For example, Crime of passion is just another way of saying someone lost control of themselves. Losing control is a mental health problem. Doesn't mean you have some sort of clinical diagnoses like bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, but you can sorta see where this can lead.

But I agree with you that we need to be careful about saying "Mentally Ill" and assocating that term with things that really don't have much to do with the "Mentally Ill". My problem is how we use that term. The spectrum can go from very light forms to very heavy forms.

That makes no sense. There are rational, self-interested reasons for people to kill other people including financial reward, revenge, and status (think gangs).

In the case of a mass shooting, sometimes the person is mentall ill, but I'd argue that they usually are not, they have simply decided that sharing their message or anger with the world, or taking revenge on the people they blame for their situation, has become more important than their own lives (and obviously the lives they take).

 

[realibrad]

That makes no sense. There are rational, self-interested reasons for people to kill other people including financial reward, revenge, and status (think gangs).

In the case of a mass shooting, sometimes the person is mentall ill, but I'd argue that they usually are not, they have simply decided that sharing their message or anger with the world, or taking revenge on the people they blame for their situation, has become more important than their own lives (and obviously the lives they take).

What mass shooting was not done by a mentally ill person?

 

[fskimospy]

What mass shooting was not done by a mentally ill person?

If you're defining mentally ill as a diagnosable disorder that caused or was substantially the cause of the shooting, then very few mass shootings are done by mentally ill people. I mean I guess you could say that anyone who wants to engage in a mass shooting is mentally ill, but that's begging the question.

At least I think we could say that very few mass shootings are done by mentally ill people as the US mental health system defines them.

 

[Newell Steamer]

It seems you don't have a great understanding of mental illness. Not all mentally ill people are unable to function in society. Take depression, which is a mental illness. Are depressed people not able to coordinate?

Depressed people go through the motions of everyday life - but, they are not enjoying it and absorbing what is happening. Mental illness is inside someone. Very few, if any, signs appear. Which is why it took our society so long to properly identify mental illness.

Look, call mass shooters ANYTHING other than crazy/mentally ill is my point. Call them potatoes for all I care, just don't call them mentally ill.

 

[Newell Steamer]

In the case of a mass shooting, sometimes the person is mentall ill, but I'd argue that they usually are not, they have simply decided that sharing their message or anger with the world, or taking revenge on the people they blame for their situation, has become more important than their own lives (and obviously the lives they take).

:thumbsup:

 

[realibrad]

If you're defining mentally ill as a diagnosable disorder that caused or was substantially the cause of the shooting, then very few mass shootings are done by mentally ill people. I mean I guess you could say that anyone who wants to engage in a mass shooting is mentally ill, but that's begging the question.

At least I think we could say that very few mass shootings are done by mentally ill people as the US mental health system defines them.

I should have probably been more clear. The media usually focuses on the shootings done by people that are considered mentally ill. I was asking for some examples of mass shootings done by people not mentally ill.

 

[Blackjack200]

I should have probably been more clear. The media usually focuses on the shootings done by people that are considered mentally ill. I was asking for some examples of mass shootings done by people not mentally ill.

Were the Oregon shooter or the South Carolina shooter mentally ill?

 

[realibrad]

Depressed people go through the motions of everyday life - but, they are not enjoying it and absorbing what is happening. Mental illness is inside someone. Very few, if any, signs appear. Which is why it took our society so long to properly identify mental illness.

Look, call mass shooters ANYTHING other than crazy/mentally ill is my point. Call them potatoes for all I care, just don't call them mentally ill.

You responded to my post, but I can't figure out how its a response to my question.

Why call someone who is mentally ill not mentally ill? Words have meanings and trying to invent something different because society usually associates things with that word is stupid. The effort in trying to invent something new is less efficient then simply getting people over the stigma of the word. A mentally ill person is mentally ill.

 

[werepossum]

That's not a terrible idea honestly. But it's going to be complex, probably more then creating the homeland security agency.

I think the other, very large problem, is that people really don't have the stomach to look at the $$$ when it comes to the cost of adequately treating the mentally ill. It's going to be a smack in the face when people see the bill up front vs. seeing the bill split up into their monthly medical premiums or prison costs.

But if we start taking these people out of emergency rooms, out of prisons, and out of the streets....it would be a freaking godsend to the safety/security and well being of this country. I honestly think that would be one of the best things we could do.

The sad fact is that we NEED to re institutionalize. We don't need giant death houses, we just need facilities built specifically for treating people with mental health problems.

Oliver was stating it was bad because it stigmatizes those with mental health problems. He is accurate in that most are non-violent and tend to be victims. If we associate mental health with mass shootings, it will marginalize a group that is quite fragile.

Well said. Problem is that if money isn't extremely tightly controlled, then it either gets eaten up by the bureaucracy or it gets shunted off for politicians' pet projects.

The first reason that springs to mind is that people who would likely be classified as mentally ill commit a very small fraction of mass shootings while guns are, by definition, used in 100% of mass shootings. That seems like an important difference.

Improved access to mental health care is a valuable thing in its own right. It will do little to stop mass shootings though.

Yet people who are mentally ill also kill in other ways, such as knives, arson, poison, even bare hands. There are reasons we look for the bank robbers rather than attempt to control all automobiles even though get-away cars are ubiquitous.

That makes no sense. There are rational, self-interested reasons for people to kill other people including financial reward, revenge, and status (think gangs).

In the case of a mass shooting, sometimes the person is mentall ill, but I'd argue that they usually are not, they have simply decided that sharing their message or anger with the world, or taking revenge on the people they blame for their situation, has become more important than their own lives (and obviously the lives they take).

Good point. I would argue that anyone who murders a bunch of strangers is mentally ill by definition, but using any repeatable, detectable definition of mentally ill you are sure correct. However, I think you would agree that finally fulfilling the other half of Kennedy's vision and establishing a comprehensive mental health system at the state and local level is also worth doing on its own merits, even if it doesn't make much of a dent in mass murders.

 

[mizzou]

Well said. Problem is that if money isn't extremely tightly controlled, then it either gets eaten up by the bureaucracy or it gets shunted off for politicians' pet projects.

You know, privatized mental health care could be a good alternative if the government run method is too "bureacracized". Most of our mental health care right now is privately run anyway and contracted to work with state/local agencies.

I think the private run companies need to be propped up though to get good staffing. It's a pretty terrible business, running one that treats people who are sometimes so bad off they can't hold a job.

 

[Spungo]

Werd.


Lot of good takes from the show. He exceeds Stweart b/c he's not a liberal sac hugger, he's vicious where appropriate to both sides of the politically absurd that permeates all politics these days.

Jon Stewart has attacked liberals lots of times. Conservatives get more attention because they tend to say dumber things. For every 1 democrat concerned about the island of Guam tipping over, there are 3 or 4 republicans saying something really weird about rape, gays, abortion, evolution, climate, etc.

I am pro-gun, but, I am anti-bullshit. And labeling one type of mass shooter a terrorist and another type of mass shooter a crazy person is utter bullshit.

It seems like the word terrorism is never explained to the American people. Terrorism is when violence is used to for political reasons. 9/11 was a terrorist act because it was a political statement. The columbine massacre was not a terrorist act because it had no political motivation - it was just some angry kids doing angry things.

Improved access to mental health care is a valuable thing in its own right. It will do little to stop mass shootings though.

True. Canada has tons of crazy people, and it has the same problem of overmedicating children, but they don't go on killing sprees because it's not an easy thing to do up there. Almost nobody in Canada owns a pistol. Most people are too lazy to fill out the paper work to get a license, and the kinds of people who get licenses are the same people who keep guns locked in a safe where they can't be stolen by troubled kids.

 

[Blackjack200]

Jon Stewart has attacked liberals lots of times. Conservatives get more attention because they tend to say dumber things. For every 1 democrat concerned about the island of Guam tipping over, there are 3 or 4 republicans saying something really weird about rape, gays, abortion, evolution, climate, etc.

They're also huge crybabies, so they complain about the criticism alot more.

It seems like the word terrorism is never explained to the American people. Terrorism is when violence is used to for political reasons. 9/11 was a terrorist act because it was a political statement. The columbine massacre was not a terrorist act because it had no political motivation - it was just some angry kids doing angry things.

That's not a good definition unless you want to consider most of America's military interventions to be terrorism.

Terrorism is a propaganda term. Is has no consisteant, precise meaning. It's used when it's useful.

True. Canada has tons of crazy people, and it has the same problem of overmedicating children, but they don't go on killing sprees because it's not an easy thing to do up there. Almost nobody in Canada owns a pistol. Most people are too lazy to fill out the paper work to get a license, and the kinds of people who get licenses are the same people who keep guns locked in a safe where they can't be stolen by troubled kids.

Too fucking cold up there. Fuck that shooting spree, I'm going to drink cocoa and watch the Red Green show.