John McCain's Plan to Fight Crime?

[ChrisFromNJ]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thewo.../08/surge-at-home.html

Are neighborhoods in this country in need of an Iraq-style "surge"?

ABC's David Wright checks in after Senator McCain's appearance at the Urban League.

"Answering a question about his approach to combatting crime, John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics 'somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement.' The way he described it, his approach sounded an awful lot like the surge. As part of his argument, McCain praised the crime-fighting efforts of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; Urban League president Marc Morial countered that while New York did experience a drop in crime under Giuliani, there were several major instances of police misconduct. To which McCain promised aggressive prosecution of civil rights violations and a Justice Department free from political cronyism."

Sounds like a police state to me. The Gestapo would be so proud.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thewo.../08/surge-at-home.html

Are neighborhoods in this country in need of an Iraq-style "surge"?

ABC's David Wright checks in after Senator McCain's appearance at the Urban League.

"Answering a question about his approach to combatting crime, John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics 'somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement.' The way he described it, his approach sounded an awful lot like the surge. As part of his argument, McCain praised the crime-fighting efforts of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; Urban League president Marc Morial countered that while New York did experience a drop in crime under Giuliani, there were several major instances of police misconduct. To which McCain promised aggressive prosecution of civil rights violations and a Justice Department free from political cronyism."

Sounds like a police state to me. The Gestapo would be so proud.

They need more cops on the street, like what Clinton did, except the funding ran out and the cops went away. That was akin to a surge in that regard.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thewo.../08/surge-at-home.html

Are neighborhoods in this country in need of an Iraq-style "surge"?

ABC's David Wright checks in after Senator McCain's appearance at the Urban League.

"Answering a question about his approach to combatting crime, John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics 'somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement.' The way he described it, his approach sounded an awful lot like the surge. As part of his argument, McCain praised the crime-fighting efforts of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; Urban League president Marc Morial countered that while New York did experience a drop in crime under Giuliani, there were several major instances of police misconduct. To which McCain promised aggressive prosecution of civil rights violations and a Justice Department free from political cronyism."

Sounds like a police state to me. The Gestapo would be so proud.

What a thoughtless comment. Typical leftist. Same concept as adding more cops to teh street. Target known problems, identify high crime criminals and remove fromthe street.

Nothing fascist about it except your dreams.

 

[Vic]

FREEDOM!!!

 

[Slew Foot]

HOPE!!! CHANGE!!!!

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
-snip-

John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US.

As usual I think McCain has spoken carelessly.

I suppose how one views this has more to do with their interpretation of how this actually works. Had McCain spoken more carefully such individal interpretation would not be encouraged.

Some seem to think he's talking about jack-boot thugs in brown shirts wading in and kicking @ss. It didn't strike me that way at all.

My take on it is as follows:

The tactics of the surge included our military getting to know the locals, and earning their trust and respect. In turn, the locals helped the military against the bad guys. The information the locals could, and did, provide the military was extremely helpful in finding and defeating bad guys.

Seems to me a logical thing for the police to do. Instead my impression in some inner-city hell-holes is that locals are afraid of the cops, and do not co-operate with them against the bad guys. The result being these gangs having control of neighborhoods etc. It does strike me as similar to descriptions of problems in Iraq before the surge

Anyway, if it's how I interpreted his remarks, I'm all for it. If it's the Brown Shirt -thing, I'm opposed to it.

Fern

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thewo.../08/surge-at-home.html

Are neighborhoods in this country in need of an Iraq-style "surge"?

ABC's David Wright checks in after Senator McCain's appearance at the Urban League.

"Answering a question about his approach to combatting crime, John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics 'somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement.' The way he described it, his approach sounded an awful lot like the surge. As part of his argument, McCain praised the crime-fighting efforts of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; Urban League president Marc Morial countered that while New York did experience a drop in crime under Giuliani, there were several major instances of police misconduct. To which McCain promised aggressive prosecution of civil rights violations and a Justice Department free from political cronyism."

Sounds like a police state to me. The Gestapo would be so proud.

It worked well in NYC. But they only did it in business and tourist areas. The poor areas stayed dangerous. I don't think you can have a surge like we did in Iraq for the simple fact that, unless there are educational programs and jobs that come with the cops, the criminals will simply bide their time until the funding runs out. And the funding always runs out.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

I don't know why you think having more cops on the beat and having them focus resources on known criminals is "facist". I think you're against McCain's strategy for the sake of being against McCain to be honest. I will always welcome more cops on the street.

 

[BarneyFife]

They need to do a surge in Detroit.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Dari
It worked well in NYC. But they only did it in business and tourist areas. The poor areas stayed dangerous. I don't think you can have a surge like we did in Iraq for the simple fact that, unless there are educational programs and jobs that come with the cops, the criminals will simply bide their time until the funding runs out. And the funding always runs out.

This is what has happened in Philly (and other cities). When the cops have massed and concentrated on know bad areas, those areas have improved.

BUT the criminals simply set up shop elsewhere in the city.

AND when the cops ceased their massive attention on any one area -- as always eventually happens -- the criminals have simply moved right back in.

If the surge in Iraq is his analogy, and this is really his plan, then McCain is an out of touch idiot. Much of the success of the surge has depended on enlisting the Sunni awakening councils on our side. Without that, we are just a foreign, occupying power there.

The neighborhoods we have (temporarily) pacified in Iraq WERE stable neighborhoods before we invaded.

The neighborhoods in our inner cities are broken beyond any "quick fix surge" repair.

This proposal is an ignorant and idiotic one, designed to appeal who think military force can overcome decades and decades of social decay. If only it was that easy.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Dari
It worked well in NYC. But they only did it in business and tourist areas. The poor areas stayed dangerous. I don't think you can have a surge like we did in Iraq for the simple fact that, unless there are educational programs and jobs that come with the cops, the criminals will simply bide their time until the funding runs out. And the funding always runs out.

This is what has happened in Philly (and other cities). When the cops have massed and concentrated on know bad areas, those areas have improved.

BUT the criminals simply set up shop elsewhere in the city.

AND when the cops ceased their massive attention on any one area -- as always eventually happens -- the criminals have simply moved right back in.

If the surge in Iraq is his analogy, and this is really his plan, then McCain is an out of touch idiot. Much of the success of the surge has depended on enlisting the Sunni awakening councils on our side. Without that, we are just a foreign, occupying power there.

The neighborhoods we have (temporarily) pacified in Iraq WERE stable neighborhoods before we invaded.

The neighborhoods in our inner cities are broken beyond any "quick fix surge" repair.

This proposal is an ignorant and idiotic one, designed to appeal who think military force can overcome decades and decades of social decay. If only it was that easy.

I agree. My schools have always been near real, real shitty neighborhoods. What would really help would be cops on foot instead of cruisers or mobile command centers. A lot of poor neighborhoods I've been around are mainly composed of African-Americans and they simply do not trust the cops. This helps the criminals tremendously. Unfortunately, the cops don't have the patient to differentiate the criminals from the victims so they treat them all alike. More trust between police and A-As would help greatly.

 

[BarneyFife]

Actually less crime by A-A would help tremendously.

 

[winnar111]

The proper solution to crime is to stop imprisoning minor first time drug offenses and to start executing murders and rapists.

 

[bamacre]

If this doesn't turn people off of John McCain, nothing could.

The implications of a policy like this could destroy the country in ways one could only imagine. Americans would not put up with "collateral damage" of Americans.

The fact that he could even speak of such an idea shows how irresponsible McCain really is.

 

[Lemon law]

We need a surge in the justice department . Cast out the republirat thugs and drive out the usurpers of our constitution from the courts. Prosecute our real criminal class, white collar corporations that rob us all.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
-snip-

John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US.

As usual I think McCain has spoken carelessly.

I suppose how one views this has more to do with their interpretation of how this actually works. Had McCain spoken more carefully such individal interpretation would not be encouraged.

Some seem to think he's talking about jack-boot thugs in brown shirts wading in and kicking @ss. It didn't strike me that way at all.

My take on it is as follows:

The tactics of the surge included our military getting to know the locals, and earning their trust and respect. In turn, the locals helped the military against the bad guys. The information the locals could, and did, provide the military was extremely helpful in finding and defeating bad guys.

Seems to me a logical thing for the police to do. Instead my impression in some inner-city hell-holes is that locals are afraid of the cops, and do not co-operate with them against the bad guys. The result being these gangs having control of neighborhoods etc. It does strike me as similar to descriptions of problems in Iraq before the surge

Anyway, if it's how I interpreted his remarks, I'm all for it. If it's the Brown Shirt -thing, I'm opposed to it.

Fern

Exactly what I was thinking. Actually, this policy probably isn't very similar to the surge. I'd assume he's just trying to promote this policy by drawing parallels between it and the massively successful Iraq troop surge. Good politics. 😛

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Actually less crime by A-A would help tremendously.

How would you go about doing that? the only way to reduce crime permanently is to improve conditions in the ghettos and that will entail a shit load of money, and no one is willing to do that.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Actually less crime by A-A would help tremendously.

How would you go about doing that? the only way to reduce crime permanently is to improve conditions in the ghettos and that will entail a shit load of money, and no one is willing to do that.

I wish I could figure out what happened to A-A neighborhoods from the 1960s to today. Things were never this bad then. It's like everything went to shit in 20-30 years.

 

[BoberFett]

Since when are the feds responsible for policing cities? Isn't that a, you know, city issue.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Actually less crime by A-A would help tremendously.

How would you go about doing that? the only way to reduce crime permanently is to improve conditions in the ghettos and that will entail a shit load of money, and no one is willing to do that.

It has to come from within. Throwing money at the problem will only encourage more laziness.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: winnar111
The proper solution to crime is to stop imprisoning minor first time drug offenses and to start executing murders and rapists.

WINNAR!

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: dawp

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Actually less crime by A-A would help tremendously.

How would you go about doing that? the only way to reduce crime permanently is to improve conditions in the ghettos and that will entail a shit load of money, and no one is willing to do that.

It has to come from within. Throwing money at the problem will only encourage more laziness.

I'm not saying to 'throw money' at it, but to spend it wisely, like improve schools, infrastructure and generally invest in the neighborhoods, i.e. improve the conditions. a lot can be done without handouts. And that would most likely include raising taxes, but no one will go along with that. you have to give them a reason to improve themselves.

 

[Drift3r]

One thing that was done in SF that I think would help out and keep criminals from simply "returning" to a neighborhood is by issuing restraining orders against known and convicted criminals like drug dealers who are arrested. If they do return to a neighborhood they do so while violating the restraining order and are subject to immediate arrest. If they move shop somewhere else and are re-arrested for the same crime they get another restraining order for that neighborhood.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: ChrisFromNJ
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thewo.../08/surge-at-home.html

Are neighborhoods in this country in need of an Iraq-style "surge"?

ABC's David Wright checks in after Senator McCain's appearance at the Urban League.

"Answering a question about his approach to combatting crime, John McCain suggested that military strategies currently employed by US troops in Iraq could be applied to high crime neighborhoods here in the US. McCain called them tactics 'somewhat like we use in the military...You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement.' The way he described it, his approach sounded an awful lot like the surge. As part of his argument, McCain praised the crime-fighting efforts of former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani; Urban League president Marc Morial countered that while New York did experience a drop in crime under Giuliani, there were several major instances of police misconduct. To which McCain promised aggressive prosecution of civil rights violations and a Justice Department free from political cronyism."

Sounds like a police state to me. The Gestapo would be so proud.

What do you suggest we should do to try to fix the inner city neighborhoods?

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
One thing that was done in SF that I think would help out and keep criminals from simply "returning" to a neighborhood is by issuing restraining orders against known and convicted criminals like drug dealers who are arrested. If they do return to a neighborhood they do so while violating the restraining order and are subject to immediate arrest. If they move shop somewhere else and are re-arrested for the same crime they get another restraining order for that neighborhood.

That has worked really well in SF... Not really.