John Cleese attempting to refine his dog whistle (comments about London being less 'English' these days)

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,568
9,934
146
There is nothing to see as there is nothing inherently racist about observing that London is no longer culturally English.
"Cultures" are always in flux. Change is the only constant. Take that most iconic family of England, the Royal Family. They were fucking German, until 1917, when King George V changed the name of the royal house from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, to the House of Windsor, because WW1. Of course, that Royal lineage dates from the Norman Conquest of England, by an army of army of Norman, Breton, Flemish, and French soldiers .

So English! :rolleyes:

Our own cultural history encompasses owning people as property, not allowing woman to vote, and declaring that we "own" the entire Western Hemisphere under the Monroe Doctrine. Kind of makes you all wet with nostalgia, doesn't it?

So, yeah, his statement has strong tones of racism. Only a dyed in the wool fellow racist would be blind to that fact.

I don’t know what that expression [take the piss] means.
Really? I'm beginning to suspect you're not sufficiently Anglo-Saxon white. Please give me a moment to "lament" that. :cool:
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
"Cultures" are always in flux. Change is the only constant. Take that most iconic family of England, the Royal Family. They were fucking German, until 1917, when King George V changed the name of the royal house from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, to the House of Windsor, because WW1. Of course, that Royal lineage dates from the Norman Conquest of England, by an army of army of Norman, Breton, Flemish, and French soldiers .

So English! :rolleyes:
There is an English identity that emerged after WW1 and WW2. Cleese and Python saw that identity as a source of parody. Pink Floyd rebelled against it. I have a fondness for the NYC of the 70s and 80s, especially the music scene. Does that make me a racist?

Our own cultural history encompasses owning people as property, not allowing woman to vote, and declaring that we "own" the entire Western Hemisphere under the Monroe Doctrine. Kind of makes you all wet with nostalgia, doesn't it?
My family showed up after WW2, so I feel nostalgia for the culture they brought with them.

So, yeah, his statement has strong tones of racism. Only a dyed in the wool fellow racist would be blind to that fact.

Really? I'm beginning to suspect you're not sufficiently Anglo-Saxon white. Please give me a moment to "lament" that. :cool:
I am only one generation removed from a time where my culture did not qualify as white.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,568
9,934
146
I have a fondness for the NYC of the 70s and 80s, especially the music scene. Does that make me a racist?
If NYC in the 70s and 80s was predominantly white and now it were far less so, and so you felt NYC was no longer culturally NYC because you didn't see as many white folk walking around, then, YES, there'd be a strong whiff of racism in your "lament."

Anyway, here's the thing: London is still fucking London. They still drive on the right, speak English, stay obsessed with the goings on of the Royal Family, look down on the Irish, play Crickett and Rugby, and regularly beat the shit out of each other at soccer matches. The main difference is more brown folks.

Bigot yahoos in our South also "lament" the "assault" on their "culture." In both John Cleese's England and our South, race is inextricably bound up in this "nostalgia."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Victorian Gray

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
If NYC in the 70s and 80s was predominantly white and now it were far less so, and so you felt NYC was no longer culturally NYC because you didn't see as many white folk walking around, then, YES, there'd be a strong whiff of racism in your "lament."
But if the period of nostalgia also coincides with when a country or city or cultural element was more racially homogenous, that doesn’t automatically mean there is an element of racism in articulating a preference.

Anyway, here's the thing: London is still fucking London. They still drive on the right, speak English, stay obsessed with the goings on of the Royal Family, look down on the Irish, play Crickett and Rugby, and regularly beat the shit out of each other at soccer matches. The main difference is more brown folks.
I haven’t been to London in a while, but I can speak for NYC. It is not the same city of even 20 years ago. Its now a global city, and as such, there is a different vibe. Has nothing to do with race.

Bigot yahoos in our South also "lament" the "assault" on their "culture." In both John Cleese's England and our South, race is inextricably bound up in this "nostalgia."
No argument on the south but I simply don’t agree there was any racist undertones to what Cleese tweeted.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
But if the period of nostalgia also coincides with when a country or city or cultural element was more racially homogenous, that doesn’t automatically mean there is an element of racism in articulating a preference.

I haven’t been to London in a while, but I can speak for NYC. It is not the same city of even 20 years ago. Its now a global city, and as such, there is a different vibe. Has nothing to do with race.

No argument on the south but I simply don’t agree there was any racist undertones to what Cleese tweeted.
What did he mean by less English then? What quality of being English, specifically, did London used to have that it supposedly lacks now?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Perknose

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
But if the period of nostalgia also coincides with when a country or city or cultural element was more racially homogenous, that doesn’t automatically mean there is an element of racism in articulating a preference.

I haven’t been to London in a while, but I can speak for NYC. It is not the same city of even 20 years ago. Its now a global city, and as such, there is a different vibe. Has nothing to do with race.

No argument on the south but I simply don’t agree there was any racist undertones to what Cleese tweeted.

There are plenty of racist undertones in what Cleese said.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...e-says-city-is-no-longer-english-6439482.html

"I'm not sure what's going on in Britain. Let me say this, I don't know what's going on in London because London is no longer an English city and that's how they got the Olympics.
"They said 'we're the most cosmopolitan city on Earth' but it doesn't feel English.
"I had a Californian friend come over two months ago, walk down the King's Road and say to me 'well, where are all the English people?'.
"I love having different cultures around but when the parent culture kind of dissipates you're left thinking 'well, what's going on?'"
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
It wasn't obvious to me at first that he was being racist exactly. I was tempted to partially defend him. He could have been thinking of all the white non-English in London - lots of Poles and Portuguese and French in London. 40% of the population were born outside the UK, and you hear Polish and Greek and Italian and other European languages all the time. You can tell which EU country is having economic difficulties by which language you start hearing.

Which would make him xenophobic rather than racist, I guess. Or even just insular and nostalgic. But it does in fact seem from other things he's said that he is indeed talking about non-white groups, probably the usual suspects most of all - Muslims. Just like Morrissey. Sadly.

Though I sort-of, partly, agree with him - in that I don't regard London as English, it's just itself. The UK is Scotland, NI, Wales, England and London as far as I'm concerned. But I don't see that as a bad thing, and it's been that way my entire life. Though the '80s invasion of the Home Counties Yuppies was a bit of an annoyance. They didn't tend to integrate, they took over entire neighbourhoods, with their strange private-school accents and fancy coffee and expensive cars and jobs in the City.

And Cleese was born and raised in Weston-Super-Mare, so he was himself an economic migrant to London. And now he's a citizen of the international global celebrity rich, to whom all of us are foreigners.

Bit of a shame, but this is how it's always been. He's now living in the Caribbean somewhere. I remember as a child watching Alan Whicker interview British 'ex pats' (loaded term, of course) abroad who invariably said they'd left Britain (to live in a foreign country) because Britain was too full of foreigners. It struck me even then as a weird position to take.

Cleese was, of course, a famous celebrity supporter of the SDP, and I never liked his politics. But one can still find some of his work very funny, you don't have to like someone to like their work (though Fawlty-towers had some awkward politics even at the time - e.g the stereotype Irish builder).
 
Last edited:

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
But if the period of nostalgia also coincides with when a country or city or cultural element was more racially homogenous, that doesn’t automatically mean there is an element of racism in articulating a preference.

I haven’t been to London in a while, but I can speak for NYC. It is not the same city of even 20 years ago. Its now a global city, and as such, there is a different vibe. Has nothing to do with race.

No argument on the south but I simply don’t agree there was any racist undertones to what Cleese tweeted.

There was a strong whiff of racism, but at first I would have said your interpretation was defensible...but looking at other things he's tweeted it seems to be it is indeed mostly about race.

Personally, mind, I don't see London as very different from 20 years ago (other than all the CD and DVD shops have closed). Though it did strike me when I started hearing Polish in areas where I expected to hear Tamil or other south Asian languages. But the big change, as far as I'm concerned, was way back in the '80s, when the yuppies all arrived from England and started taking over.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,764
2,279
126
well, i wouldn't know.
As a foreigner living in London, i mean, and being on a bus where two moms are fighting over the stroller space in polish, maybe 2-3 drunk trash in tracksuits being the only representatives of the glorious British race, you'd wonder if all those umbrella-clutching, bowler wearing, tea-sipping stockbrokers were ever actually real.
Go to london. Go to brixton, croydon, east ham, or simply take the tube, or a bus.

Thing is, London had a very british identity. As opposed to a city like New York, where the minute you start elbowing passerbys and yelling at cab drivers BAM! you're a new yorker. The brits of the 60s and 70s have a very strong social fabric that has disintegrated over the years, and a major reason why is that it was so difficult to integrate into in the first place. Most brits won't give you the time of day, despite all the social media blaring about how they had punch-ups with the GIs over racial integration.

Now, get a brit outside of their comfort zone, and they are a completely different beast. But as someone who's not of their crew, they don't give you the same kind of treatment they reserve for their own. I would say this is unintentional and subconscious, but to me it's very real.
Nothing like - for example, i'm talking to a lady on the phone who's in hospital in Antibes, and allegedly nobody there speaks a word of english. You know, Antibes, that MAJOR TOURIST LOCATION on the french coast, in a profession where most of the literature is in english, they dont speak english. Ye.
Not that the french as reputed worldwide for pretending they speak no other languages. That's just a silly stereotype.

Anyway, Cleese is right. This isn't the first time he's right, and he's always demonstrated to be an intelligent and insightful man. Over the years the only thing that's changed is that he's stopped sugarcoating it.

Frankly london is a shithole, you just have to come and visit, see for yourself. it doesn't take a lot of effort to criticize it, it's dirty, expensive, the wages are dismal, the food is horrible, it's hard to get around, it's boring, and the weather sucks balls.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,600
11,288
136
well, i wouldn't know.
As a foreigner living in London, i mean, and being on a bus where two moms are fighting over the stroller space in polish, maybe 2-3 drunk trash in tracksuits being the only representatives of the glorious British race, you'd wonder if all those umbrella-clutching, bowler wearing, tea-sipping stockbrokers were ever actually real.
Go to london. Go to brixton, croydon, east ham, or simply take the tube, or a bus.

Thing is, London had a very british identity. As opposed to a city like New York, where the minute you start elbowing passerbys and yelling at cab drivers BAM! you're a new yorker. The brits of the 60s and 70s have a very strong social fabric that has disintegrated over the years, and a major reason why is that it was so difficult to integrate into in the first place. Most brits won't give you the time of day, despite all the social media blaring about how they had punch-ups with the GIs over racial integration.

Now, get a brit outside of their comfort zone, and they are a completely different beast. But as someone who's not of their crew, they don't give you the same kind of treatment they reserve for their own. I would say this is unintentional and subconscious, but to me it's very real.
Nothing like - for example, i'm talking to a lady on the phone who's in hospital in Antibes, and allegedly nobody there speaks a word of english. You know, Antibes, that MAJOR TOURIST LOCATION on the french coast, in a profession where most of the literature is in english, they dont speak english. Ye.
Not that the french as reputed worldwide for pretending they speak no other languages. That's just a silly stereotype.

Anyway, Cleese is right. This isn't the first time he's right, and he's always demonstrated to be an intelligent and insightful man. Over the years the only thing that's changed is that he's stopped sugarcoating it.

I'm sure he'll thank you for the context you've inserted for him that an intelligent and insightful man like him somehow neglected to do for himself.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
There are plenty of racist undertones in what Cleese said.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...e-says-city-is-no-longer-english-6439482.html

"I'm not sure what's going on in Britain. Let me say this, I don't know what's going on in London because London is no longer an English city and that's how they got the Olympics.
"They said 'we're the most cosmopolitan city on Earth' but it doesn't feel English.
"I had a Californian friend come over two months ago, walk down the King's Road and say to me 'well, where are all the English people?'.
"I love having different cultures around but when the parent culture kind of dissipates you're left thinking 'well, what's going on?'"
He is lamenting the dissipation of his parent culture. Nostalgic, yes. Racist, no.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
He is lamenting the dissipation of his parent culture. Nostalgic, yes. Racist, no.

I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

What John Cleese said has clear racist undertones.

Whether he was being nostalgic or not is largely irrelevant.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

What John Cleese said has clear racist undertones.

Whether he was being nostalgic or not is largely irrelevant.

I fully expect you and the other folks celebrating "diversity" to therefore decry as "racist" the folks who decry gentrification which has the same racist overtones, just against a different racial group.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,600
11,288
136
I fully expect you and the other folks celebrating "diversity" to therefore decry as "racist" the folks who decry gentrification which has the same racist overtones, just against a different racial group.

Good job.

2752ad884b21a50de43f7c2f222e1d8b.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Victorian Gray

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
I fully expect you and the other folks celebrating "diversity" to therefore decry as "racist" the folks who decry gentrification which has the same racist overtones, just against a different racial group.

The do what now?

Is this an attempt at appealing to hypocrisy?
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I have no idea what point you think you're making here.

What John Cleese said has clear racist undertones.

Whether he was being nostalgic or not is largely irrelevant.
The point I am making is that it only has racist undertones for those people conditioned to make everything about race.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Greenman

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,568
9,934
146
The point I am making is that it only has racist undertones for those people conditioned to make everything about race.
Tribalism, most often along ethnic, religious or racial lines, is a huge challenge for us all. It is a reaction to change. But the only constant is change.

The days of never straying outside of your village, wherein everyone looks and acts the same, are past.

Like it or not, we live in a global and multicultural world.

Denying that Cleese's statements have NO racist and xenophobic undertones, his repeated pining for a mythic recent past when everyone looked and acted "English," is only possible for those wedded to the destructive notion that all our present woes can be laid at the feet of . . . those people . . . you know, THEM.

And, yeah, man, those who strenuously deny any racist undertones in what he said ought to ask themselves why.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Herp derp splerp jerp.

You’re native tongue

@Veliko is quite literally a babbling idiot. I guess his feeble mind was broken by the simple observation that London becoming more diverse and cosmopolitan (which the left celebrates as a good thing) means that native-born Englishmen are a smaller percentage of the population and thus the city is "less English" by definition. There's no value judgement implicit in that statement, only a mere pointing out of the demographic reality. "More English" or "less English" could be a good thing, bad thing, or irrelevant thing depending on your POV but it's a factual thing.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,580
2,150
146
"Dog whistle" has always been a troublesome term. If it is something that not everyone can hear, then one who can't hear it must take it on faith that it exists. So by definition it's totally subjective, since no real objective proof of its existence can be offered. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a dog whistle.

Actually, these things are far worse than actual dog whistles, since proof of ultrasonic noise is easily obtained, where no such dispassionate equipment is available to analyze our utterances.

Naturally one has to wonder what kind of poor dog whistles these are that mainly seem to be heard by those they were not intended to affect. But again we are told we must take it on faith by those who have the gift of hearing such things, and accept their explanations.

That's not to say that coded language doesn't exist, but a great deal of skepticism should be employed in regards to these fundamentally subjective interpretations.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Tribalism, most often along ethnic, religious or racial lines, is a huge challenge for us all. It is a reaction to change. But the only constant is change.

The days of never straying outside of your village, wherein everyone looks and acts the same, are past.

Like it or not, we live in a global and multicultural world.
There is nothing inherently wrong with a global multicultural world. There is also nothing inherently wrong with nostalgia for simpler times or a preference to the culturally familiar.

I was a huge fan of the melting pot before it got rebranded as cultural appropriation.


Denying that Cleese's statements have NO racist and xenophobic undertones, his repeated pining for a mythic recent past when everyone looked and acted "English," is only possible for those wedded to the destructive notion that all our present woes can be laid at the feet of . . . those people . . . you know, THEM.

And, yeah, man, those who strenuously deny any racist undertones in what he said ought to ask themselves why.
Nothing strenuous about it. I understand how some people would perceive Cleese’s statement as xenophobic. I think those people are over sensitive. A good portion of the socially acceptable pop culture of the 80s would classify as offensive or triggering today.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
It is the people who are determined to defend Cleese from every possible angle that are being overly sensitive.