Joe Biden . . .

[CaptnKirk]

Another Gamble in the 'Democracy-of-the-Week' Plan for Iraq . .

As gambles go, this is as good as any - Beats the Bush Administration's 'Eveything on the Wheel-of-Fortune' - one spin . . . or die, option.

Iraq was united from 3 adjacent regions back in the 19-teens to form the clusterfurk that's there now.

Maybe, just maybe, by re-establishing these 3 separate autonomus 'Country/States'they could get the consession to have
the United Republic of Iraq become comprised from the loosely reapportioned areas that used to be there.
Comeon - the GOP under DeLay did just that in the redistricting in Texas just a couple years back, so why not?
Good enought for Texas . . . it's good enough for the Iraqis.

Since only the North Kurdistan and South Shiite-istan Province States have diddly-squat, and the central area which includes Sunni DoucheBagistan
is the one without resources - just a pile of people in a bombed out city, it's only fitting that the non-players be put in charge of everything.
That way it's just like the United States and Washington DC sucking the country dry, but telling everyone else what to do.
A shining example of 'Democracy-Gone-Wild' - the perfect role model for the New! Improved! Iraq!
now with 48% more IED's.

Models of Texas Politics and Washington Leadership - why wouldn't Iraq jump right on in?

 

[Zebo]

Bidens an idiot. The main thing feuling the savagery , attacks on americans and on going conlict is the already confederate nature of the constitution which allows the oil rich southern Shiites and northern Kurds to keep all the countires oil wealth underneath them while cutting out large swaths of the middle of iraq from income. Mostly Sunni by some Shiites too. Alas, he wants to exascerbate this situation. Not only that Turkey has said they will not stand for an autonomous Kurdistan and is already amassing troops and has invaded once just last week to quell the uppity Kurds.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Bidens an idiot.

Better check the mirror to be sure who's the idiot. Biden's one of the few in Congress with any sense at all, along with a lot of experience in foreign affairs and more. If he runs, I'm voting for him.

 

[Zebo]

Bidens tries to maintain illusion that the Democrats really are an opposition party when in fact he voted for war, calls for more troops, more money, more opression of iraqis a sure sign of someone who's hardheaded and continues digging themselves in a deeper hole. Im sure he's smarter than I am but I'm also sure he's using his smartness to benefit the war party and MIC who put him there instead majority of americans or Iraqis.

 

[Zebo]

Oh and Harvey as far as Biden as president I guess you think having a pompous ass who thinks caving to the opposition is synonymous with statesmanship would be a good thing for the Democratic party? Give me a neocon before a DLC traitor with no backbone.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Zebo
Bidens an idiot.

Is there any such thing as a Senator Savant?

We know that they have about half the skill down pat.

 

[Lemon law]

I am no Biden fan---but bashing him is counterproductive from the standpoint of this thread. Regardless of idea authorship,
Iraq may ultimately split into three States--a Southern Shia one, a central Sunni State and a Northern Kurdish State.

Two basic questions remain for debate

1. How would such a deal be consumated

2. What would the long term prospect of each State to integrate into stable mid-east---or alaternately would the existance of one or more of these States cause an eneveitable gobbling up of an unstable State by one or more of its established neighbors.

My take is that a Southern Shia state would tend towords a defacto annexation by Iran---The central Sunni's will find this unacceptable because they will be left with nothing, and the Northern Kurds would alienante all their neighbors.---with no existing military and huge oil wealth, the Kurds would make a very tempting target indeed.

But thats just my guess--anyone else care to hazard a guess? But right now the ball is also in the as of yet non-exist Iraqi government side of the net---it somewhat depend how desperate they are to get the US the heck out.--and how desperate Bush is to get out.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

The basic truth being acknowledged by Biden and ignored by the PNAC/GOPie morons is that Iraq is not East/West Germany or North/South Korea.

The country was a mistake. An example of incredible hubris by people that had little concern for the ramifications. For some odd reason, Bushistas think they will succeed where the previous attempt failed.

A closer modern day analogy is the former Eastern Bloc. Without the oppressive central regime the former member states have gone their separate ways. Some cling to the old authoritarian ways (Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Belarus) while others move towards open societies (Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine-depending on the month) . . . and then you have the confused ones in the middle (Armenia, Georgia).

It would be ridiculous for external influences to try and "merge" the states in the post-Soviet era. Any reasonable person would say each of the nations has a right to choose their future . . . independent, loosely associated, or by choice . . . merged with former Soviet colleague(s).

Biden is FAR from a great statesman . . . considering he's just another tool that signed off on Bush's Excellent Adventure in the first place. But at least he's got enough of a clue to realize when to stop digging.

 

[Zebo]

Where is he saying it was a mistake? Typically politican he's desceptive - He's saying they way bush preceeded was a mistake not that he would have changed the idea of the actual invasion and occupation. In fact he always calls for more more more.. troops, money etc in every interview I've seen him on PBS.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Where is he saying it was a mistake? Typically politican he's desceptive - He's saying they way bush preceeded was a mistake not that he would have changed the idea of the actual invasion and occupation. In fact he always calls for more more more.. troops, money etc in every interview I've seen him on PBS.

I've watched Biden on occasion as well. I think he buys the kool-aid argument about admitting Bush War 2003 was an error would demoralize the troops and/or make America look weak and invite more attacks. But if you gave him a few minutes of "approved" DOD interrogation techniques he would admit it was a mistake to invade Iraq.

Regardless, my primary reading is that he thought it was still possible to "succeed" in Iraq if different choices had been made early on. I'm almost inclined to agree. But I think anything resembling a true success . . . nascent democracy with stable institutions, secure borders, and domestic tolerance . . . would have required:
1) 2-4x as many troops
2) UN coordination
3) cooperation of Syria and Iran
4) humility amongst US leadership

Since Bush wasn't close to any of these items . . . Biden was a tool to think more troops was going to be the solution. Granted, I think Biden and McCain were really arguing to put more troops in the zone to "pacify" the country long enough to get Iraqis prepped to do the job themselves.

 

[Zebo]

LOL I'm afraid the only thing the DOD approved interrogation techniques would reveal is both McCain and Biden are masterful decievers a) they never saw a war they did'nt like check thier votes on down the line last 15 years b) Thier primary support comes from countless American companies feeding at the public trough in those wars. Biden in my view is trying to maintain an illusion of being sorta "antiwar" by railing against Bush's Iraq when every word he utters , his votes and his ties tell me he just pissed off it's not his party doing the tinkering in Iraq. Politics is that way when your opponent is vulnerable on an issue you attack it which Biden is doing but he's not conflicted by some "aiding the ememy" idea but he actually agrees with Bush while trying to distance himself for this disaster only way he can, it's Bushs fault not the disater policy.

 

[Moonbeam]

The bastard plagiarized an Englishman's speech. So much for any character in Biden. He is a big ass, in my opinion as worthless as all the other famous political turds.

 

[Lemon law]

Can we get off Biden for a minute--Iraq may well split off into that set of three seperate States---for reasons having absolutely
to do with Biden------------THEN WHAT?

What is the probability States spawned in that way could be stable?