"Jobless Recovery" -- media treating the unemployed like "steerage class"?

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
While reading one of the political sites I check up on now and then, I came across a passage which struck me as being rather insightful:

The Silence of the Wolves

There is a phrase that the media likes to use in their flirtations with reality. The phrase is the ?jobless recovery.? It is a diminution of the millions of Americans that need jobs for basic survival.

It is saying that if we can stem the flooding to just third class and steerage decks then the problem is solved. As long as the first class and the promenade decks are clear, all will be well. The grand design is to alter the focus and draw the eye from the wreckage of the American economy.

It hadn't occurred to me on my own, but the entire phrase "Jobless Recovery" does imply that. After all, what good is a "recovery" if it's jobless and doesn't provide the means of survival for the people who need it?

What complete BS. Jobless recovery is simply a description for an economic phenomenon. It has nothing to do with "first class" blah blah class envy BS. People at all levels of the employment market have been hit hard, not just lower class. In fact, I'd bet that people working for McDonalds have fared better in terms of keeping their employment than those working in some higher paying sectors. The article is written from the point of view that only "lower class" people are affected.

The economy as a whole will recover, but the job market might not improve much beyond going from "really awful" to "ok". The economy as a whole might start doing a lot better, but because of globalization, the worker wages might remain stagnant as they have for a long time.

If you have the type of job that a 3rd world person could do (or could be done by automation instead), why would you expect anything but stagnant wages?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
While reading one of the political sites I check up on now and then, I came across a passage which struck me as being rather insightful:

The Silence of the Wolves

There is a phrase that the media likes to use in their flirtations with reality. The phrase is the ?jobless recovery.? It is a diminution of the millions of Americans that need jobs for basic survival.

It is saying that if we can stem the flooding to just third class and steerage decks then the problem is solved. As long as the first class and the promenade decks are clear, all will be well. The grand design is to alter the focus and draw the eye from the wreckage of the American economy.

It hadn't occurred to me on my own, but the entire phrase "Jobless Recovery" does imply that. After all, what good is a "recovery" if it's jobless and doesn't provide the means of survival for the people who need it?

I don't infer that meaning at all. In fact, the inclusion of "jobless" essentially implies that it really isn't a meaningful recovery at all. I think the press is STRESSING the importance of those being left out of the recovery, not minimizing them.

 

[First]

Unemployment was higher in 1982 when there was significantly less outsourcing. It's pretty clear it has been a net economic positive and that we'll recover from this recession like we do all other recessions. The speed with which the recovery occurs is the only real question remaining, not whether it turns into a Depression. Of course, it would be interesting to see the data that would lead one to believe we're headed for worse, but we all know said data won't be presented.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: child of wonder
Too many idiots reproducing, ala Idiocracy.

Sad, harsh, but true.

So if you lose your job and you find that you can not find a job that supports your family does that make you an "idiot"?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: First
Unemployment was higher in 1982 when there was significantly less outsourcing. It's pretty clear it has been a net economic positive and that we'll recover from this recession like we do all other recessions. The speed with which the recovery occurs is the only real question remaining, not whether it turns into a Depression. Of course, it would be interesting to see the data that would lead one to believe we're headed for worse, but we all know said data won't be presented.

I agree that we'll recover like other recessions. I think people need to keep in mind that a huge % of the layoffs came from small businesses, many of which are NOT manufacturing or financial services related. They were cut well ahead of huge losses in revenue, resulting in sustained profits for those businesses. As things level out and consumption picks up a little, you'll start seeing the cycle sustain itself and pick up again.

I think many are calling this a "jobless recovery" because they are forgetting that employment LAGS GDP recovery, so of course any initial GDP recovery will be jobless. However, as confidence returns, so will jobs.

I'm already seeing many cases were businesses that cut heavily in Aug/Sept 08 are hiring back people, both on a perm and temp (which will likely turn perm) basis.

Businesses panicked last year, now they are leveling off and realize they cut too deeply. Not to mention, TALF is really helping tons of companies, companies such as PHH, Avis Budget, Wyndham, among others, are now able to finance their fleet leases, auto rentals, and consumer loans, which were shut down when the securitization market died last fall. Those companies cut heavily in the face of balance sheet limitations (thus reducing sales, cutting jobs). Now that TALF has reduced spreads in the debt market, and driven large amounts of demand for securitization debt, (largely through cash buyers, since a huge portion of TALF eligible debt is NOT being financed through the Fed), not only for TALF eligible debt, but also for non-TALF eligible, you're seeing a ripple effect.

What's funny is that the multi-pronged campaign against the unstable financial markets (TARP, CPFF, TALF...etc) are really showing their true effectiveness.

Things will improve, albeit slowly, but people need to stop this gloom-and-doom stuff.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic
In every economic system, someone is always going to have to be the one who scrubs the toilets. That's just the way it is.

It's the way it is because it's the way we made it, no?

You're right, of course, who need toilets?!

Self-cleaning toilets comes to mind. Somewhere, in Japan, a toilet is cleaning itself and eliminating yet another American job. :laugh:

I meant the analogy as a euphemism. My point is that there will always be some form of inequality because there will always be dirty jobs to do that no one wants to do (including being unemployed). I'm not trying to apologize for inequality, I'm just pointing out that it is a fact of reality that cannot be changed (although it can be limited to an extent).

If cleaning toilets is something no one wants to do, then it should end up a high-paying job, not a low-paying one.

The simple fact that terrible jobs also tend to have terrible pay is a bit of a problem for any claim that there is a free labour market at work.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

I agree that we'll recover like other recessions.

Businesses panicked last year, now they are leveling off and realize they cut too deeply.

Things will improve, albeit slowly, but people need to stop this gloom-and-doom stuff.

That's one thing certainly agree with but they are not going to staff at previous levels.

Also many of the jobs left the country permanently which you are not admitting to, why?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha

Originally posted by: child of wonder
Too many idiots reproducing, ala Idiocracy.

Sad, harsh, but true.

So if you lose your job and you find that you can not find a job that supports your family does that make you an "idiot"?

If you stay put, yes.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

I agree that we'll recover like other recessions.

Businesses panicked last year, now they are leveling off and realize they cut too deeply.

Things will improve, albeit slowly, but people need to stop this gloom-and-doom stuff.

That's one thing certainly agree with but they are not going to staff at previous levels.

Also many of the jobs left the country permanently which you are not admitting to, why?

I would agree they won't staff at previous levels, but in many places they'll staff back maybe 50% of what they let go.

What about other jobs that are being created in the country? You seem to think that no other technology is ever created. This is a very false assumption.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I hope you-all have suspenders attached to your shorts for the next leg down...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
If cleaning toilets is something no one wants to do, then it should end up a high-paying job, not a low-paying one.

The simple fact that terrible jobs also tend to have terrible pay is a bit of a problem for any claim that there is a free labour market at work.

Not at all. It's unskilled labor that people usually take because there are few other alternatives open to them. OTOH, 'dirty' jobs that require skill and training, like say being a medical examiner, tend to pay quite well.

 

[piasabird]

Can't wait for the the Solyent Green food biscuits made from dead people.

 

[Underclocked]

I think many of the posters on this forum are nothing more than spoiled, pampered children that like to think of themselves as superior to others. And now I learn they do not even dirty their toilets.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
While reading one of the political sites I check up on now and then, I came across a passage which struck me as being rather insightful:

The Silence of the Wolves

There is a phrase that the media likes to use in their flirtations with reality. The phrase is the ?jobless recovery.? It is a diminution of the millions of Americans that need jobs for basic survival.

It is saying that if we can stem the flooding to just third class and steerage decks then the problem is solved. As long as the first class and the promenade decks are clear, all will be well. The grand design is to alter the focus and draw the eye from the wreckage of the American economy.

It hadn't occurred to me on my own, but the entire phrase "Jobless Recovery" does imply that. After all, what good is a "recovery" if it's jobless and doesn't provide the means of survival for the people who need it?

What complete BS. Jobless recovery is simply a description for an economic phenomenon. It has nothing to do with "first class" blah blah class envy BS. People at all levels of the employment market have been hit hard, not just lower class. In fact, I'd bet that people working for McDonalds have fared better in terms of keeping their employment than those working in some higher paying sectors. The article is written from the point of view that only "lower class" people are affected.

The economy as a whole will recover, but the job market might not improve much beyond going from "really awful" to "ok". The economy as a whole might start doing a lot better, but because of globalization, the worker wages might remain stagnant as they have for a long time.

If you have the type of job that a 3rd world person could do (or could be done by automation instead), why would you expect anything but stagnant wages?

I don't know what field you're in, but with technological advances, just about every job can be outsourced in one way or another, even highly skilled highly trained jobs. The only jobs that can't be outsourced are those requiring a direct physical presence.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
If cleaning toilets is something no one wants to do, then it should end up a high-paying job, not a low-paying one.

The simple fact that terrible jobs also tend to have terrible pay is a bit of a problem for any claim that there is a free labour market at work.

Not at all. It's unskilled labor that people usually take because there are few other alternatives open to them. OTOH, 'dirty' jobs that require skill and training, like say being a medical examiner, tend to pay quite well.

Dirty and unskilled should, however, pay better than clean and unskilled, if the unskilled are really in a position to make free choices.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
If cleaning toilets is something no one wants to do, then it should end up a high-paying job, not a low-paying one.

The simple fact that terrible jobs also tend to have terrible pay is a bit of a problem for any claim that there is a free labour market at work.

Not at all. It's unskilled labor that people usually take because there are few other alternatives open to them. OTOH, 'dirty' jobs that require skill and training, like say being a medical examiner, tend to pay quite well.

Americans didn't want those jobs because employers refused (or couldn't) pay enough for them. The Americans were replaced by illegals who gladly worked for the amount of pay given. That's why illegals won't be kicked out of this country...by either party! :Q
Dirty and unskilled should, however, pay better than clean and unskilled, if the unskilled are really in a position to make free choices.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic
In every economic system, someone is always going to have to be the one who scrubs the toilets. That's just the way it is.

It's the way it is because it's the way we made it, no?

No, it's because we made toilets.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: First
Unemployment was higher in 1982 when there was significantly less outsourcing. It's pretty clear it has been a net economic positive and that we'll recover from this recession like we do all other recessions. The speed with which the recovery occurs is the only real question remaining, not whether it turns into a Depression. Of course, it would be interesting to see the data that would lead one to believe we're headed for worse, but we all know said data won't be presented.

here's that data you wanted:
http://static.seekingalpha.com.../saupload_crerefi5.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nSTO...gage-Rate-Resets-1.png