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Jimmy Carter to meet with the leader of Hamas??

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,674
3,229
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The Islamophobes in our midst are the same fascist pathogenic morons who brought us Hitler. It would be prudent to exterminate them early before they kill create the circumstances to kill more millions and millions or billions, this time. They are the real terrorists that can bring disaster, their squeaking fear and need to be protected from the monsters of their childhood trauma, no? Is it not moral to kill thousands of the demented to save millions of innocent lives?
While you?re going to enter in the suggestion of violence as the solution to our argument, it strikes me that with the left's adamant defense of stuff like this:
Hamas MP: We will conquer Rome, and then Eastern Europe and the Americas

That we will not be capable of stopping violent supremacism without first fighting a civil war here in this nation to cast aside your support of them.

In one breath Lemon says that cleric is an idiot, with the next he equates Hamas to Pat Robertson and then says violent supremacism is nothing but a ghost under my bed. Oh, that sounds familiar doesn?t it Moonie? Yes, September 11th, Madrid, Glasgow, London those were just my imagination. Nothing to see here.

You two argue with the same banner of assaulting westerners and of defending our opponents. One of your argumentative tactics is to suggest that stopping radicals is to genocide against everyone.

When I suggest Hamas needs to be forced into surrendering its war:
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But you know as well as I do we can't just go after the blood-letters. We have to kill them all.
Originally posted by: Lemon law
We better think long and hard before we declare war on 1.4 billion Muslims
When I suggest Al Sadr and his army needs to be stopped from overpowering the Iraqi government and fermenting civil war:
Originally posted by: Lemon law
But now Jaskalas has shown us the way, kill all 25,000,000 of the Iraqi people and bulldoze every building in the Iraq to the ground
The western world will never mount a proper resistance to violent supremacism so long as you keep us stuck in this mud of fighting amongst ourselves. So long as you keep attacking everyone who says something needs to be done we will achieve nothing in our favor. Everything will go to our opponents and with the furor of your arguments I have to wonder if that isn?t your intention.

Is that not Carter?s intention ? to voice their demands and for you to support those demands against us?
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,322
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Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ya right-------screw Jimmy Carter---that vicious peacemonger---after all one good apple might spoil a whole barrel of rotten ones in GWB&co.

But it kind of seems like a poker game some of you are trying to crash. To play you have to have a Nobel Peace prize as the minimum ante to join the game.
Since I don't have one, I will just remain content to back the peanut farmer.

I am still waiting for Braznor and seemingly random to show us their Peace prizes. Other wise, they are just posting from the peanut gallery.
Yeah, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski funded the mujaheddin in the first place. A 40$ billion dollar program back then, this began the radicalization of Afghanistan, the fertile breeding grounds for Sunni Islamism.

Carter also abandoned the Shah, betraying him when he needed help at the most and this created the Shiite Islamic republic of Iran.

Some man of peace! George W Bush doesn't have anything on him when it comes to Carter and his record of wreaking the world with the best of intentions! :disgust:
I think you should spend some time hitting the books. The Shah was shipped over to Iran from New Jersey and was a classic puppet dictator put into power to suppress the free elections of the people. Can you imagine that might precipitate a backlash among the Iranians?

Another thing you might learn is that just about every president since Kennedy has been guilty of the exact same thing. (Not that anybody cares about a long tradition of crushing democratic movements abroad, that's for another thread I'm sure)

I'm amazed that you would suggest that Bush is somehow better than Carter when it comes to foreign relations. If your post didn't illustrate blatant historical ignorance to begin with, that last statement proves that you also lack cognitive ability.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,034
1
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Are we to believe that the Democrats refuse to acknowledge the threat of terrorism, and the Republicans are the party to effectively fight the war on terror, yet inevitably abuse the situation to help further their other agendas?

The US is doomed to find itself in a situation like that of Israel and the Palestinians. One side says "we occupy your lands because you attack us," and the other side says, "we attack you because you occupy our lands."

It is a never-ending cycle of violence and death. Is this what we want for our country? Can we not prevent that situation from existing? If so, shouldn't we?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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So the ever clueless Jaskalas comes back with---The western world will never mount a proper resistance to violent supremacism so long as you keep us stuck in this mud of fighting amongst ourselves. So long as you keep attacking everyone who says something needs to be done we will achieve nothing in our favor. Everything will go to our opponents and with the furor of your arguments I have to wonder if that isn?t your intention.

Is that not Carter?s intention ? to voice their demands and for you to support those demands against us?
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So I should shut up which is what I have been by in large doing in the past. After all, I only joined P&N a few years ago.
And what progress you Jaskalas types were making suddenly all ground to a halt because of little ole me and Jimmy.

Well excuse me, carry on, you all are sure making progress advancing the cause of mid-east peace.

If you don't mind me asking, when do you expect to achieve your objectives given the fact you have made no progress for 60 years?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,626
3,424
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
So the ever clueless Jaskalas comes back with---The western world will never mount a proper resistance to violent supremacism so long as you keep us stuck in this mud of fighting amongst ourselves. So long as you keep attacking everyone who says something needs to be done we will achieve nothing in our favor. Everything will go to our opponents and with the furor of your arguments I have to wonder if that isn?t your intention.

Is that not Carter?s intention ? to voice their demands and for you to support those demands against us?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I should shut up which is what I have been by in large doing in the past. After all, I only joined P&N a few years ago.
And what progress you Jaskalas types were making suddenly all ground to a halt because of little ole me and Jimmy.

Well excuse me, carry on, you all are sure making progress advancing the cause of mid-east peace.

If you don't mind me asking, when do you expect to achieve your objectives given the fact you have made no progress for 60 years?
The enemy of the paranoid are everywhere, even under our own bed. My only safety if when everybody thinks like me and that can only happen when everybody but me is dead. Everybody has to die so I can live. But I'll let you live too if you promise to think like me. Just let me be in control.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,085
493
126
Originally posted by: m1ldslide1
Originally posted by: Braznor
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ya right-------screw Jimmy Carter---that vicious peacemonger---after all one good apple might spoil a whole barrel of rotten ones in GWB&co.

But it kind of seems like a poker game some of you are trying to crash. To play you have to have a Nobel Peace prize as the minimum ante to join the game.
Since I don't have one, I will just remain content to back the peanut farmer.

I am still waiting for Braznor and seemingly random to show us their Peace prizes. Other wise, they are just posting from the peanut gallery.
Yeah, Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski funded the mujaheddin in the first place. A 40$ billion dollar program back then, this began the radicalization of Afghanistan, the fertile breeding grounds for Sunni Islamism.

Carter also abandoned the Shah, betraying him when he needed help at the most and this created the Shiite Islamic republic of Iran.

Some man of peace! George W Bush doesn't have anything on him when it comes to Carter and his record of wreaking the world with the best of intentions! :disgust:
I think you should spend some time hitting the books. The Shah was shipped over to Iran from New Jersey and was a classic puppet dictator put into power to suppress the free elections of the people. Can you imagine that might precipitate a backlash among the Iranians?

A backlash that took 40 years? Not much of a backlash if you ask me.
btw how was the Shah shipped from NJ when he was a son of a monarch?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
47,758
7,997
126
So after years of foreign policy blunders and a hugely expensive yet still-unresolved "war" for nothing but high gas prices and the world's tallest building in Dubai, the spin is that any attempts at diplomacy represent a lack of seriousness when it comes to fighting terrorism? Is that really what the OP is trying to say?

Yaknow, there's come a point where I've stopped questioning how stupid the Bush/McCain hacks are, because obviously their brainwashed stupidity knows no bounds, and started getting insulted at how stupid they must think I am that I would fall for their shit.
Now if the OP is looking for a reason why the Pubs will lose this fall, he should look there. Just because you're a stupid hack who cares more about your "team" than you do about the good of the country, doesn't mean that the rest of us are just as stupid, because we're not.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,017
571
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
So the ever clueless Jaskalas comes back with---The western world will never mount a proper resistance to violent supremacism so long as you keep us stuck in this mud of fighting amongst ourselves. So long as you keep attacking everyone who says something needs to be done we will achieve nothing in our favor. Everything will go to our opponents and with the furor of your arguments I have to wonder if that isn?t your intention.

Is that not Carter?s intention ? to voice their demands and for you to support those demands against us?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I should shut up which is what I have been by in large doing in the past. After all, I only joined P&N a few years ago.
And what progress you Jaskalas types were making suddenly all ground to a halt because of little ole me and Jimmy.

Well excuse me, carry on, you all are sure making progress advancing the cause of mid-east peace.

If you don't mind me asking, when do you expect to achieve your objectives given the fact you have made no progress for 60 years?
No one is making progress promoting middle east peace. Not the US, nor any other player.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
Finally Atreus21 says something worth saying---No one is making progress promoting middle east peace. Not the US, nor any other player.

Maybe its time to realize the reason for that lack of progress is that we are waiting for Israel and the Arabs to come to a fair mutual agreement.

And maybe its time for the rest of the world to stand up, go back to 1948, find some universal standards of fairness, re divide up the land and the resources, and say to each side, this is what you get, like it or lump it. Its called binding arbitration and has often brought peace when other approaches fail.

And if either side tries to thereafter make war on each other, the rest of the world will punish the aggressor.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,674
3,229
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Finally Atreus21 says something worth saying---No one is making progress promoting middle east peace. Not the US, nor any other player.

Maybe its time to realize the reason for that lack of progress is that we are waiting for Israel and the Arabs to come to a fair mutual agreement.
I would not wait for anyone to agree. Hamas has committed acts of war against Israel - Hamas should be defeated militarily and made to surrender. That's my solution - the likes of which I doubt anyone has the resolve to try.

To end an unending war ? you simply end it by having a victor. The lives lost to end that war will be less than the lives lost if you keep playing your games of appeasement and unending war. It can end anytime we want; we simply haven?t forced it to end out of our own fear of what that requires.

So instead your only solution is how to best sell the public on what the opponent wants as terms of our surrender in the face of their brutality. Carter is a fine reward for their years of bloodshed which continue to this day. Rewarding them for the blood they?ve spilled is the only thing you care to do.

I do not speak out against peace. I speak out against your folly that would lead us to a false peace that they will never honor. Our concessions place us in a position of weakness and them in a position of strength. They will be free to continue to dictate more concessions after Israel is cut up.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,034
1
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Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Finally Atreus21 says something worth saying---No one is making progress promoting middle east peace. Not the US, nor any other player.

Maybe its time to realize the reason for that lack of progress is that we are waiting for Israel and the Arabs to come to a fair mutual agreement.
I would not wait for anyone to agree. Hamas has committed acts of war against Israel - Hamas should be defeated militarily and made to surrender. That's my solution - the likes of which I doubt anyone has the resolve to try.

To end an unending war ? you simply end it by having a victor. The lives lost to end that war will be less than the lives lost if you keep playing your games of appeasement and unending war. It can end anytime we want; we simply haven?t forced it to end out of our own fear of what that requires.

So instead your only solution is how to best sell the public on what the opponent wants as terms of our surrender in the face of their brutality. Carter is a fine reward for their years of bloodshed which continue to this day. Rewarding them for the blood they?ve spilled is the only thing you care to do.

I do not speak out against peace. I speak out against your folly that would lead us to a false peace that they will never honor. Our concessions place us in a position of weakness and them in a position of strength. They will be free to continue to dictate more concessions after Israel is cut up.

If Hamas is to be wiped out, is that the US's job, or Israel's?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
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What happened to some universal standard of fairness. There were people in Israel and people within the Palestinian community who were willing to discuss peace and fair settlements. They are basically called moderates, they don't want to use violence, and are able to see the problem from both sides. These people on both sides are still there, they still make the vast part of both populations, but no one listens to them anymore. Leaving the extremists on both sides in charge and both will use violence to get their way.

And once that gets to a point where neither side will listen to each other, what we have is basically what we have now. Israeli military might that will indiscriminately kill Palestinian moderates or extremists and a group of stateless terrorists who will kill Israelis indiscriminately. And there is no compromise middle ground anymore.

Maybe if this merely involved three million Palestinians against six million Israelis, it might be possible for Israeli to slay the lot of Palestinians. But there is now a blurring and
much of the stateless terrorism is funded by all hundreds of millions of Arab neighbors.

Gone are the days of the infanta when all the Palestinians had were rocks and bottles against tanks. Now they have rockets terrorists use to dare Israel to strike against innocent by Arab countries trying stay uninvolved. Or at least their moderate community. Now the rockets are starting to have larger ranges. At some point chemical or biological warheads may follow. That is where the trend lines are going from what I can see.

Maybe its time for the moderates to start doing the talking on both sides. Or the extremists are going to ignite a war even Israel can't win.
 

mrSHEiK124

Lifer
Mar 6, 2004
11,493
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Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: OrByte
what the HELL is so wrong with talking to Hamas?

I swear the hubris being displayed in this thread is assinine.

I think people are afraid that Carter will be successful.

pathetic.
IMO, this is not, and never will be a legitimate conflict. It's a Jihad, and the US is participating in it.

Fuck them if they want more deaths, I don't care one bit about them or their holy war on Islam, I hope the talks DO work!

Watch this video if you have about 10 minutes free, it's about fascists in our own country who literally want to bring on the end-times, so that the world can be cleansed. First on their list? Islam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Thn9Hnu__pU

Here is a gathering of these people - Some of them are actually law makers.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K30_Zz7tHYs
Without clicking either link I'm 1000% sure they're all Evangelist Christians. A friend was talking to me about them and I dismissed it as conspiracy theorist drivel, but I looked into it and apparently some of them really do want to do everything possible to bring upon the "end of the world"; the existence of Israel is one of the "requirements". I think apocalyptic fervor is just as scary as Hamas's approach to righting a wrong 61 years in the making.

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The main Atreus21 illogic is here---Israel has shown me before that they can at least attempt to reason with their enemies, and they were attacked as a result.

Yes they have this charming way of reasoning---give us everything and we can agree. Otherwise we will not talk to you.

The only reason the peace conference in Annapolis has not collapsed already is that the arabs agreed to table the issue of Israel building on disputed lands. As they now try to tackle the issue of creating a Palestinian State on the moon while totally marginalizing Abbas in the process. And if Israel won't even deal with Abbas, its not rocket science to predict that
Abbas and Fatah will go the way of the dodo. And then Israel can only deal with the Hamas they are busily pretending does not exist.

That kind of reasoning has been reasonable for 60 long years if you only look at things from one end of the table.
When Israel withdrew from the West Bank, it didn't present a good example of the "give us everything" line. The "give us everything" mentality is better suited to Hamas, who've failed consistently to take the conciliatory tone you say that Israel should take.
What fucking West Bank did Israel withdraw from? Ma'ale Adumim, a settlement so big that it's now considered an Israeli city, is INSIDE the Arab 1967 line. Don't delude yourself, Israel removed themselves from INSIDE Arab cities in the West Bank, they control all the borders, they have dozens of checkpoints that turn an 11 mile trip from Ramallah to Bethlehem into a 61 mile trek through the fucking mountains. The West Bank is littered with Israel, withdrawal my ass.
 
Jun 19, 2004
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Jimmy Carter is a good man and was a terrible president. I doubt anything will come of his meeting Khaled Mashaal. Carter's major failing was always his belief in the precepts of enlightened self interest. Unfortunately, Hamas' only interest is in acquiring power as quickly as possible.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Originally posted by: manowar821
Originally posted by: OrByte
what the HELL is so wrong with talking to Hamas?

I swear the hubris being displayed in this thread is assinine.

I think people are afraid that Carter will be successful.

pathetic.
IMO, this is not, and never will be a legitimate conflict. It's a Jihad, and the US is participating in it.

Fuck them if they want more deaths, I don't care one bit about them or their holy war on Islam, I hope the talks DO work!

Watch this video if you have about 10 minutes free, it's about fascists in our own country who literally want to bring on the end-times, so that the world can be cleansed. First on their list? Islam.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Thn9Hnu__pU

Here is a gathering of these people - Some of them are actually law makers.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=K30_Zz7tHYs
Without clicking either link I'm 1000% sure they're all Evangelist Christians. A friend was talking to me about them and I dismissed it as conspiracy theorist drivel, but I looked into it and apparently some of them really do want to do everything possible to bring upon the "end of the world"; the existence of Israel is one of the "requirements". I think apocalyptic fervor is just as scary as Hamas's approach to righting a wrong 61 years in the making.
Not just that Israel exists, but that it covers all it's Bibical territory, which includes all of the West Bank, and that it has a majorty of the world's Jews living there.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,991
2
0
It is not called the Holy land for nothing because its somewhat home turf for three major religions. And since the Romans de facto expelled the jewish people from the region by 135 AD, Jerusalem and the surrounding areas has been under the dominion of many countries in an almost endless process of conquest and reconquest.

At least in my mind, the start of the concept of the reformation of Israel began on the steppes of Russia more than a 150 years ago. As oppressed jews in Russia long suffering from the czarist programs sought a way out. And the idea of a back to land of Israel got its start and was pushed by various intellectuals. And the Russian jews came in their trickles, buying local land on the open market and bring in modern farming methods in the process. Even thought these farming methods were predicated on more water, they could be adapted and soon they were up and running. Showing the benefits of cultural cross pollination is almost always universally beneficial. Sure there was some mutual animosity also. but on balance that pre WW2 era showed the land could be shared to mutual benefit.

And in every garden of Eden there has to be a snake, and Hitler rose to power partly on the platform of antisemitism. And Hitler was not just an ordinary bigot who delights in hurting the weak, Hiltler was a maniac on super steroids who was determined to exterminate. After WW2 started, Hitler and his many minions started rounded up and tossed most of Europe's jews into concentration camps\ extermination factories. And before Hitler was shut down, some six million had been killed. As for the survivors, they and their dead brethren had already been robbed of their lands and possessions, and now there were suddenly millions of these exiled survivors in allied army hands. Countries willing to take in more than a few of these jewish refugees were few and far between. And in almost indisputable fact, during the pre ww2 era and in the immediate aftermath of ww2, the USA record was particularly shameful. Especially shocking given the fact we were the lucky enough to grab up some top flight cutting edge physics thinker like Einstein, Fermi, and others. And while
their brains did not defeat the Germans, had Hitler had them and used them to develop nukes, Germany might have won the war. Meanwhile Russian under Stalin was also fortunate enough to cherry pick some of these excellent jewish thinkers and soon put them to work to develop nukes of their own. As for Stalin and a land where jew baiting had almost become a national sport for the past thousand years, The pre and post WW2 era Russian records was as shameful as any other nation on the planet regarding jewish refugees. As for Stalin himself, he was quite arguably even more morally bankrupt and vicious than Hitler, and even the Russians themselves recognize that he is a blot on their history.

We all know what happened next, partly by choice and partly out of desperation, it was decided to solve the problem by dumping the remaining lot of jewish refugees into Palestine. The State of Israel was formed by the UN as an ill thought out feel good. To the shame of the arabs states they immediately attacked on the basis of religious bigotry, and found themselves outsmarted and outfought. To the shame of Israel, it started doing exactly what had been done to them for thousands of years, and they started to expel and dispossess Palestinians on the basis of religious bigotry.

And here we are, in 2008, and history has come another full circle. What the Romans busted by 135 AD is now reconstituted as the State of Israel, one more religion is added to the list of those who consider the area the " HOLY LAND", and its still being fought over bitterly by proponents of those three religions. And here we all are, the set of all the people alive today, and limited to just a tiny slice of world history.

The reason I am writing this is the hope that we can start to gain the wisdom to see what the one common element is in all this war and strife. Namely religious bigotry and an unwillingness to share what amounts to the holy land.

In what amounts to a larger 4000 year slice of history, the land named variously as Palestine or Israel has been owned wholly by Jews, Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Christians, and Muslims as just a partial ownership list. Each displacing the other by violence while others also still coveting bide their time for their future violent takeover.

I know it sounds incredible naive, but why can't we learn to share? Those that insist on having it all, inevitably lose it all.
 

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