JFK Speech to the Press about guarding America

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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John, I'm no fan of the 'historian surveys' ranking presidents, after I've seen the rankings be quite misguided and surprisingly uninformed.

I'll also note that your source of the Federalist Society is a far right-wing ideological organization, though their list is less biased than you might expect.

One issue is that in ranking the presidents, views of their policies play a role. Take the Cuban Missile Crisis - was it one of the high moments in US history, as the competition between the west and the east came to its most critical turning point, as the USSR was left looking underhanded and dishonest, and weak as they backed down from the conflict, while the US looked strong but restrained and carried the day increasing its position as the world leader - leading to the downfall of Kruschev within a couple years for his part and a slide down for the USSR until it fell 25 years after Kruschev?

Or was it Kennedy's reckless policies, an indefensible double standard as he had Jupiter nuclear missiles in Turkey on the USSR's border while refusing the same to them, without any justification, and risking nuclear war to escalate his position based on the double standard?

Was Kennedy's government reckless in coming so close to invading Cuba when it turns out that would have led to nuclear war?

Was the situation a result, as some republicans suggested, of Kennedy's weakness with Kruschev the previous winter at the summit in Vienna emboldeing Kruschev to the point that nuclear war was almost occuring?

Was it just dumb luck that got Kennedy out of the mess, such as the two letters from Kruschev and an aide suggesting the plan to respond to only the first?

Were Kennedy's back channel communications during the crisis the smooth moves of a talented leader or risky, foolish moves yet again illustrating his arrogance and recklessness?

Were his plans too timid, such that the risk that the USSR could have had operational missiles while he was doing a quarantine instead of invading was too dangerous?

One set of facts, many opinions can result in 'ranking' the president in handling the event.

For example, how do you rank a president who is too restrained, versus one who is too aggressive? The way you weight those is based on your politics.

I tend to put JFK, FDR, and Teddy Roosevelt in the top 3 slots of the last century, despite misgivings with Roosevelt's aggressive foreign policy (justify the occupation of the Phillippenes). LBJ would be be strong for the next spot if not for his disastrous Viet Nam policy.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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I posted that one because it was the first one in the google list :)

Most of the lists come out in just about the same order.
Most of the lists also show Kennedy sliding down while Eisnhower moves up. This is most likely a shift in demographics. The Kennedy era academics are starting to retire in mass numbers leaving openings for younger people who do not remember Kennedy first hand and therefore can only judge him based on what history books tell them.
I also think his tragic death elevated him and the people now rating him do not remember that death first hand so it has less impact.
For example, Kennedy's death has as much impact on me as FDR's, which is to say nothing from a personal basis.

I'd place Reagan above Kennedy, but below the Roosevelts.
Nice essay by a Yale Law Prof on Kennedy and why he is overrated.
Dynasty Dooms JFK
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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That article is really pretty terrible, in my view. (And I'll note it's published in the also far-right wing ideological mouthpiece, the WSJ editorial pages, notorious for inaccuracy).

The author, first, presents anything but a balanced commentary; he cherry picks things to criticize, and fails to touch on the main issues JFK dealt with.

Worse, his use of the 'I loved JFK but now see better' phrasings come across as a disengenous and manipulative rhetorical technique, given his selective commentary.

JFK faced a very difficult political situation - the southerners in Congress were his political enemies already, though they only switched parties five years later.

Look at the vote on the 1965 civil rights bill for example - non-southern democrats almost all voted yes, republicans had the next highest yes vote, southern democrats voted no.

The fact that JFK had to deal with the southerners in context of the national agenda and make tradeoffs is not a condemnation of him when looked at fairly. He was the president who helped spark the nation to change after a century of racism following the civil war. How are we to weigh his historic televised speech on civil rights to his allowing the south a racist judge or dropping a civil rights bill as he weighed what was politically feasible on the national agenda?

As for the issue of Robert Kennedy's appointment, it's an example of where something was right in one case which is usually wrong as a rule. The author makes the fundamental mistake of equating the appointment of one confidant, RFK, with another, John Mitchell, and condemns the former for the sins of the latter - while ignoring the relevant difference that RFK was an outstanding AG whose trust with the president was a strength, and Mitchell chose to do wrong, using his closeness to further corrupt acts.

To equate them is like saying that one president pardoning a truly innocent man is wrong because his successor uses the same pardon power for pardoning a criminal.

It's entirely possible to conclude, as most do, that RFK was a good appointment, and that the risks outweigh the benefits so the practice should be banned.

Frankly, the article is a hack job, an attack piece, saying nothing in a fair manner, and excluding the bulk of JFK's presidency.

The problem is not about the assassination - it's the lack of knowledge of Kennedy's policies.

Sadly, good looks and charm played too large a role in his election and in public opinion now; his policies should be the way he's looked at, and they stand up well.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Originally posted by: Craig234
That article is really pretty terrible, in my view. (And I'll note it's published in the also far-right wing ideological mouthpiece, the WSJ editorial pages, notorious for inaccuracy).

Attack the messanger, not the message huh? It is also by a Yale Professor, not exactly a bastion of conservative thinking.

But anyhow, I think this discussion has run its course. And we didn't even insult each other, what is with that?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Moonbeam,
Wasn't it that genius, Governor Reagan, that dumped the mentally ill our on the streets of California. Reagan was never much more than a turd and those are known to collect large numbers of flies.

Well... yes but then again who cares about the mentally ill.... I mean it costs money to care for them and god knows we never have enough for the really important stuff like building new mansions for the governor... well Brown wouldn't live in it..
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Attack the messanger, not the message huh? It is also by a Yale Professor, not exactly a bastion of conservative thinking.

Excuse me, but to say that my one parenthetical comment on the messenger outwieghed the rest of my post which attacked the message is, I think, unjustifiable.

It's unfortunate that you responded only to the one parenthetical comment and not the main post.

I do think it's important to note that there are a few sources which have such a track history of publishing false information, of being ideological propagandists, that it's worth pointing out when discussing the bias of something they publish, even while I stop short of saying that you can conclude the piece is wrong just by who published it. The WSJ editorial page has well earned that spot. Read Media Matters sometime and see the shocking history of the WLS EP publishing outrageous lies and refusing to correct them.

(In fact, the page has a policy against correcting anything they say, unlike any other paper I know of, no matter how wrong it's proven. As I understand the policy, the most they'll do is allow the wronged paerty to write a letter pointing out the error, leaving it as a 'he said, she said' dispute, and their own error without direct correction).

As for Yale, no educationsl institution is exempt from ideological members; rememmber, both Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones members from Yale.

(William F. Buckley is from Yale too IIRC, but I guess his conservative cedientials are in question because Yale isn't a 'bastion of conservatism'?) :).

Not insulting one another is good, and should go without saying. It has yet to run its course for me, if anyone has questions about Kennedy to discuss.:)
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Wasn't it that genius, Governor Reagan, that dumped the mentally ill our on the streets of California. Reagan was never much more than a turd and those are known to collect large numbers of flies.

HMMMMM after reading Moonbeam's posts about the guy who stabed his own 3 year old I now know who to blame for letting him out.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Attack the messanger, not the message huh? It is also by a Yale Professor, not exactly a bastion of conservative thinking.

Excuse me, but to say that my one parenthetical comment on the messenger outwieghed the rest of my post which attacked the message is, I think, unjustifiable.

It's unfortunate that you responded only to the one parenthetical comment and not the main post.

I do think it's important to note that there are a few sources which have such a track history of publishing false information, of being ideological propagandists, that it's worth pointing out when discussing the bias of something they publish, even while I stop short of saying that you can conclude the piece is wrong just by who published it. The WSJ editorial page has well earned that spot. Read Media Matters sometime and see the shocking history of the WLS EP publishing outrageous lies and refusing to correct them.

(In fact, the page has a policy against correcting anything they say, unlike any other paper I know of, no matter how wrong it's proven. As I understand the policy, the most they'll do is allow the wronged paerty to write a letter pointing out the error, leaving it as a 'he said, she said' dispute, and their own error without direct correction).

As for Yale, no educationsl institution is exempt from ideological members; rememmber, both Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones members from Yale.

(William F. Buckley is from Yale too IIRC, but I guess his conservative cedientials are in question because Yale isn't a 'bastion of conservatism'?) :).

Not insulting one another is good, and should go without saying. It has yet to run its course for me, if anyone has questions about Kennedy to discuss.:)

1. Did he bang Marylin?
2. Did the secret service kill her because of that fact ? :D

BTW: what you say makes as much sense as what the yale guy said, Kennedy had problems within his own party that hurt his ability to rule in certain ways. We all know dem southerners don't want some yankee to tell'em what to do.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
ProfJohn,
Ok.. since we understand the basis of any comment I might make - except for my areas of expertise where what I do think is based on both the academic and 'real world' necessities to render an 'expert' opinion - and that being how I see it.. right, wrong or indifferent mine eyes have seen my ears have heard and my mind concluded... :D

Regardless of who else rates which President what ever I make judgments on the variance from how I'd do what or say what if given that opportunity... Kennedy and I would be in sync... Reagan and I would not except on some issues... Clinton and I would on more that half.. (not regarding his money making schemes :) ) But all in all.. the Speeches I've heard since Ike I can only say that Kennedy and Clinton move me the most... Reagan don't much.. ... And Nixon.. well every time I hear him I remember the '60 elections and he looked like a mad hatter... The rest just frustrate me... I'd never write a speech for some given their delivery style... No way on earth...!!! You write for the person's style or ability first... then the content.. the words used are as important in speech as in poetry... the metaphor must fit the man and the point....
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
ProfJohn,
Ok.. since we understand the basis of any comment I might make - except for my areas of expertise where what I do think is based on both the academic and 'real world' necessities to render an 'expert' opinion - and that being how I see it.. right, wrong or indifferent mine eyes have seen my ears have heard and my mind concluded... :D

Regardless of who else rates which President what ever I make judgments on the variance from how I'd do what or say what if given that opportunity... Kennedy and I would be in sync... Reagan and I would not except on some issues... Clinton and I would on more that half.. (not regarding his money making schemes :) ) But all in all.. the Speeches I've heard since Ike I can only say that Kennedy and Clinton move me the most... Reagan don't much.. ... And Nixon.. well every time I hear him I remember the '60 elections and he looked like a mad hatter... The rest just frustrate me... I'd never write a speech for some given their delivery style... No way on earth...!!! You write for the person's style or ability first... then the content.. the words used are as important in speech as in poetry... the metaphor must fit the man and the point....

Don't be bustin on the Mad hatter now, I'll have to put a cap in your ass. :cool:

And I agree with your post. Nixon= :evil: Carter= :eek: Reagan = :) Bush 41= :confused: Clinton= :beer: Bush 43= what the hell are you doing? Win the war on terror and go down in history as a great President :D lose it and we all lose.
rose.gif
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
what is your beef with the federal reserve?


didn't kennedy greatly ramp up US involvement in vietnam?
Kennedy wanted OUT of Vietnam. It was LBJ, just days after taking the oath of office, that increased the US presence in Vietnam.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
Is anyone keeping track of all the money that bushco has stolen?

http://www.costofwar.com/

Is it more or is comment a little off topic?


I was feeling too much love in this thread for the Criminal In Chief - This $300,000,000,000 is a very very serious number and I can bet just like lobbyists.. this money is very stolen and misappropriated..
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,896
7,922
136
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
Is anyone keeping track of all the money that bushco has stolen?

http://www.costofwar.com/

Is it more or is comment a little off topic?


I was feeling too much love in this thread for the Criminal In Chief - This $300,000,000,000 is a very very serious number and I can bet just like lobbyists.. this money is very stolen and misappropriated..

Tell that to the congress that signed the spending bills. One man does not own this country, even though it?s easier to think of us as the evil empire that way.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
Is anyone keeping track of all the money that bushco has stolen?

http://www.costofwar.com/

Is it more or is comment a little off topic?


I was feeling too much love in this thread for the Criminal In Chief - This $300,000,000,000 is a very very serious number and I can bet just like lobbyists.. this money is very stolen and misappropriated..

Tell that to the congress that signed the spending bills. One man does not own this country, even though it?s easier to think of us as the evil empire that way.


What happens to any politician who even asks about the money and how it is being spent - Political Suicide

*btw, I think all politicians are criminals.. some are also murderers.. some have more power than others.. but ultimately.. it is US .. the citizens who are the dumbest of them all... The Hungarians are on the right track
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: LunarRay
ProfJohn,
Ok.. since we understand the basis of any comment I might make - except for my areas of expertise where what I do think is based on both the academic and 'real world' necessities to render an 'expert' opinion - and that being how I see it.. right, wrong or indifferent mine eyes have seen my ears have heard and my mind concluded... :D

Regardless of who else rates which President what ever I make judgments on the variance from how I'd do what or say what if given that opportunity... Kennedy and I would be in sync... Reagan and I would not except on some issues... Clinton and I would on more that half.. (not regarding his money making schemes :) ) But all in all.. the Speeches I've heard since Ike I can only say that Kennedy and Clinton move me the most... Reagan don't much.. ... And Nixon.. well every time I hear him I remember the '60 elections and he looked like a mad hatter... The rest just frustrate me... I'd never write a speech for some given their delivery style... No way on earth...!!! You write for the person's style or ability first... then the content.. the words used are as important in speech as in poetry... the metaphor must fit the man and the point....

Don't be bustin on the Mad hatter now, I'll have to put a cap in your ass. :cool:

And I agree with your post. Nixon= :evil: Carter= :eek: Reagan = :) Bush 41= :confused: Clinton= :beer: Bush 43= what the hell are you doing? Win the war on terror and go down in history as a great President :D lose it and we all lose.
rose.gif

G. Gordon your are ... are You.. ? ;)

When Bush 41 fainted in Japan I think I felt embarrassed for a nation.. but I really felt a huge sense of loss.. not sure exactly what I lost but I did lose something.. I know they are only human.. like when Reagan was near death with a punctured lung and all.. I felt a sense of strength emanating from that room.. had Nancy not been involved I'd have been cheering for him or when he had that colon thingi.. same there.. but Bush fainting really did set me back.. Ford's topple down the airliner steps.. same there ... dam what a klutz.. I lost all sense of faith in that man. Anyhow... That is, I think, what makes folks like one and not another on a personal level... Folks can categorize Presidents for us... and I chuckle.. First they tell us what was important and then go about filling in the presidents who they say did this or that.. To me it is less important that we got Saddam than it is that we went in in the first place... so when Bush 43 is said to be in favor of human rights and they point to Iraq.. I cringe.. Because folks died .. different ones perhaps than who'd have died had we not 'freed' Iraq of Saddam... but folks died... can't tell if more or less would have died had we let him stay in his palace while his sadistic kids roamed about so.. well.. there it is..

Closer to what I know a thing or two about for sure are numbers... I read the bobble heads tell me that Bush's tax plan is this or that... and everyone polarizes... in fact, some of what he did was spot on.. directed exactly where is should have been.. and the economy responded... Bush can't win a clap on the back from the left... cuz some rich guy got a tax cut.. hehehhe We should be a nation filled with fair minded depolarized people who call a good move a good move and an illegal one just that..
Jim Carvel (sp) and his "it is the economy, stupid" ... focus only on that issue... lost Bush 41 the election.. well that and Perot.. but all in all.. I'd much rather had 3 terms of Bush 41 than one of Clinton's and most of Bush 43's...
Bush 43 would do well to control his speech writers to accommodate his voice pattern and body style along with his facial gestures... Imagine Bush 43 talking in a slower softer manner reasoning with the audience in a way.. more from the heart type stuff.. using words that force the listener to feel the depth of his conviction... he ain't gonna do much trying to show strength and humor... but deep belief... that would be easy for him.. A quiet Leader who carries a massive stick.. but keeps it under his jacket.. not in the rhetoric of his words...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126

1. Did he bang Marylin?

I don't know for sure, I think he probably did.

2. Did the secret service kill her because of that fact ?

I don't know for sure, I think probably not.

BTW: what you say makes as much sense as what the yale guy said

That's false and insulting for you to compare the two. I did not have the flaws in what I said that he did, which I pointed out. I hope you avoid repeating such nonsense.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
expecting perfection from a president is stupid. these people are human. i.e., they make mistakes. I will never understand why American citizens don't appreciate Bill Clinton for the great job he did. Dismissing someone's accomplishments on account of an illicit blow job is stupid. voting for someone you think you might want to have a beer with is stupid. vote for someone with brains, intellect, someone you have nothing in common with - because you think they might be smart enough to do a decent job.