Jews flee Sweden as Antisemitism consumes Europe

[Lemon law]

JS80 has a point in saying, "Europe has hated Jews before the existence of Israel." And the same hate is true of Islam.

But historically, it was a love hate relationship historically because among Christians and Muslims, only the Jewish faith permitted charging interests on money lent.

And when the given Christian or Muslim poo bah needed money to finance their latest war, the Jewish community were the go to guys who could come up with the cash. Sadly too often, rather than fairly repaying, too many Christians and Muslims decided to play the anti sematism card instead. And by expelling the Jews they neatly avoided inconvenient repayment problems.

But still as a historical fact, every nation that expelled its Jews went into decline and those nations that accepted Jewish refugees prospered.

But when the rascal Martin Luther came along, Protestants said me too on usury.

That is somewhat my theory on some of the history of anti sematism and old habits die hard.

 

[werepossum]

I'm afraid you are guilty of assuming that all opposition to Israel is anti-semitism. It isn't necesarily, even when it is misguided and wrong.

When I equate anti-semitism with the right BTW, I am not talking about the mainstream right, i.e. the republican party. I am talking about the fringe. In europe, the political center is left of where it is here, at least on fiscal and economic issues. However, they have a much better organized, and probably larger (depending on country) racist and anti-semitic far right than we do. The British National Party, for example, is far larger and better organized than all our white supremacist groups combined.

- wolf

I do tend to conflate those two. And you may be right about Europe. But in the USA antisemitism is a phenomenon of the left.

 

[woolfe9999]

I do tend to conflate those two. And you may be right about Europe. But in the USA antisemitism is a phenomenon of the left.

Except among the white supremacists and neo-nazis in the US that is. They are a small fringe, but then, honestly anti-semitism is not a huge thing here on the whole.

- wolf

 

[Noobtastic]

Except among the white supremacists and neo-nazis in the US that is. They are a small fringe, but then, honestly anti-semitism is not a huge thing here on the whole.

- wolf

antisemitism is manifested more in the form of demonization of israel, which has enabled token "jews" to attack the "zionists" in ways similar to historican antisemitic libels, but because they are jews it is difficult to call them antisemitic.

but remember, leftist jews were notorious antisemites. 50% of the communist revolutionaries were jews and they thoroughly hated zionism and were basically jews in name only. the 300,000 jews that were killed during the russian civil war pogroms is rarely ever talked about ny leftists.

i guess they call it new antisemitism or something.

either way, antisemitism is still lower than it ever has been in history, mostly due to israel. think about it. 50 some years ago, look how jews were treated.

and now that israel is around, non-jews outnumber jewish support for jews. UNREAL!

 

[woolfe9999]

antisemitism is manifested more in the form of demonization of israel, which has enabled token "jews" to attack the "zionists" in ways similar to historican antisemitic libels, but because they are jews it is difficult to call them antisemitic.

but remember, leftist jews were notorious antisemites. 50% of the communist revolutionaries were jews and they thoroughly hated zionism and were basically jews in name only. the 300,000 jews that were killed during the russian civil war pogroms is rarely ever talked about ny leftists.

i guess they call it new antisemitism or something.

either way, antisemitism is still lower than it ever has been in history, mostly due to israel. think about it. 50 some years ago, look how jews were treated.

and now that israel is around, non-jews outnumber jewish support for jews. UNREAL!

I've said before, that there is a growing anti-semitism on the left which is linked to opposition to Israel. However, not all anti-zionism on the left is associated with anti-semitism. Far and away most is not. That said, yes, it is a concern that many arguments used in opposition to Israel have a cross-over with ancient anti-semitic stereotypes.

- wolf

 

[Noobtastic]

I've said before, that there is a growing anti-semitism on the left which is linked to opposition to Israel. However, not all anti-zionism on the left is associated with anti-semitism. Far and away most is not. That said, yes, it is a concern that many arguments used in opposition to Israel have a cross-over with ancient anti-semitic stereotypes.

- wolf

the problem with anti-zionism is that it is inherently antisemitic because it denies jewish rights.

the legal definition of antisemitism according to the EU and US state department define anti-zionism (against jewish self determination) as antisemitic.

the early years of anti-zionism was predicated on anti-semitism. arguments against jewish immigration to palestine and a jewish state were woefully dependent on fantasy and libels. claims that jews wanted to re-build the temple (false), jews wanted to steal arab land (false, 99% of land was purchased according to the peel commission), etc...

before israel existed one could say anti-zionism was a legitimate philosophy, but israel now exists. so anti-zionism is largely an irrelevant philosophy because it argues israel cannot exist because of x, y and z that happened 60 years ago.

and this is totally unique to israel and no where else.

not a single country on earth is denied legitimacy in the way israel is.

and many would argue this is antisemitic.

 

[woolfe9999]

the problem with anti-zionism is that it is inherently antisemitic because it denies jewish rights.

the legal definition of antisemitism according to the EU and US state department define anti-zionism (against jewish self determination) as antisemitic.

the early years of anti-zionism was predicated on anti-semitism. arguments against jewish immigration to palestine and a jewish state were woefully dependent on fantasy and libels. claims that jews wanted to re-build the temple (false), jews wanted to steal arab land (false, 99% of land was purchased according to the peel commission), etc...

before israel existed one could say anti-zionism was a legitimate philosophy, but israel now exists. so anti-zionism is largely an irrelevant philosophy because it argues israel cannot exist because of x, y and z that happened 60 years ago.

and this is totally unique to israel and no where else.

not a single country on earth is denied legitimacy in the way israel is.

and many would argue this is antisemitic.

The issue is a bit more complicated. Opposition to Israel from the left ranges from opposing the State of Israel as a Jewish state, to being critical of Israeli policies and supporting a 2-state solution. The former is more closely associated with anti-semitism than the latter, but even there, it isn't a necessary connection. Some leftists are just deluded enough to sympathize with the Palestinians as the oppressed people, consistent with their ingrained ideological assumption that might makes wrong. It's a problem to define anti-zionism as anti-semitism, because anti-semitism is a state of mind, i.e. it means actually hating Jews, so saying that one equates to the other is ascribing an actual state of mind to someone who may or may not possess that state of mind.

- wolf

 

[Noobtastic]

The issue is a bit more complicated. Opposition to Israel from the left ranges from opposing the State of Israel as a Jewish state, to being critical of Israeli policies and supporting a 2-state solution. The former is more closely associated with anti-semitism than the latter, but even there, it isn't a necessary connection. Some leftists are just deluded enough to sympathize with the Palestinians as the oppressed people, consistent with their ingrained ideological assumption that might makes wrong. It's a problem to define anti-zionism as anti-semitism, because anti-semitism is a state of mind, i.e. it means actually hating Jews, so saying that one equates to the other is ascribing an actual state of mind to someone who may or may not possess that state of mind.

- wolf

im not saying what leftists claim, but their internal motivations.

while they say their against israel because of the poor poor palestinians, in reality they merely exploit the palestinians to demonize israel. palestinians independent of israel (lebanon, and jordan) are ignored.

so again, why the obsession with israel? leftist sympathies do not extend to the might of egypt and their oppression of the sudanese, or the might of turkey and the oppression of the kurds (conflict that has killed and displaced far more people than the israel-pal.)

leftist attraction to israel is the jewish factor.

 

[woolfe9999]

im not saying what leftists claim, but their internal motivations.

while they say their against israel because of the poor poor palestinians, in reality they merely exploit the palestinians to demonize israel. palestinians independent of israel (lebanon, and jordan) are ignored.

so again, why the obsession with israel? leftist sympathies do not extend to the might of egypt and their oppression of the sudanese, or the might of turkey and the oppression of the kurds (conflict that has killed and displaced far more people than the israel-pal.)

leftist attraction to israel is the jewish factor.

That, or many leftists actually aren't aware of the hypocrisy, because the origin of the hypocrisy is anti-semitism, but they are repeating their criticisms of Israel from what they heard somewhere else. At it's root, the double standard is anti-semitic, but rank and file practitioners of the double standard haven't even thought about it. The whole slew of criticisms of Israel, that it's an "apartheid" state and all of that are memes that get transmitted from one unthinking person to the next.

There is also another important dimension to the connection that has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It has to do with U.S. imperalialism, which has been a bugbear of the left for ages. Many leftists view Israeli military aggression, and U.S. backing for it, as an extension of American imperialism in the third world. Hence, by attacking Israel, they (in their minds) are really attacking the U.S.

- wolf

 

[Noobtastic]

That, or many leftists actually aren't aware of the hypocrisy, because the origin of the hypocrisy is anti-semitism, but they are repeating their criticisms of Israel from what they heard somewhere else. At it's root, the double standard is anti-semitic, but rank and file practitioners of the double standard haven't even thought about it. The whole slew of criticisms of Israel, that it's an "apartheid" state and all of that are memes that get transmitted from one unthinking person to the next.

There is also another important dimension to the connection that has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It has to do with U.S. imperalialism, which has been a bugbear of the left for ages. Many leftists view Israeli military aggression, and U.S. backing for it, as an extension of American imperialism in the third world. Hence, by attacking Israel, they (in their minds) are really attacking the U.S.

- wolf

I don't dispute this. no doubt the vast majority of leftist critics of israel possess zero bias against jews. in fact, many of them are jews. some of whom are actually israelis.

but in the end the words, statements, and ideology is inherently antisemitic. they be a useful idiot but they're still antisemites, even if they don't know it.

im sure many supporters of nazi germany were wonderful, kind, generous people that were not prejudice.

 

[woolfe9999]

I don't dispute this. no doubt the vast majority of leftist critics of israel possess zero bias against jews. in fact, many of them are jews. some of whom are actually israelis.

but in the end the words, statements, and ideology is inherently antisemitic. they be a useful idiot but they're still antisemites, even if they don't know it.

im sure many supporters of nazi germany were wonderful, kind, generous people that were not prejudice.

We probably aren't in disagreement on the facts. My concern, however, is with reflexively labelling critics of Israel as anti-semites. Ironically, that sort of thing may actually increase anti-semitism, particularly when it is Jews who are doing the labelling. It's like dems and reps calling each other unpatriotic. Often, the allegation will backfire. I suggest that if someone is criticizing Israel unreasonably, the best approach is to refute the substance of their criticisms and stay away from labelling, even where you suspect that there is something more malignant under the surface.

- wolf

 

[JJ44]

the problem with anti-zionism is that it is inherently antisemitic because it denies jewish rights.

the legal definition of antisemitism according to the EU and US state department define anti-zionism (against jewish self determination) as antisemitic.

The later is simply a falsehood. Please point the "legal Definition of antisemitism " in either the EU or US!

Secondly that means that any position against any policy or against any nationalist assertion in any country in Africa is racist against Africans, that any criticism of Chinese policy in regards to its neighbors or internal groups is racist against Chinese?

What you are doing is creating a tautology and one basedd on exceptional ism. Exceptionalism when it comes to groups is inherently racist or inherently prejudiced anyway!

Some of anti-Zionism is antisemitic in nature and even more isn't antisemitic in the least.

Do you believe that any expression of opposition to an independent Kurdish state, mostly carved out of Turkey, would be an inherent racism or hatred against Kurds? There are dozens of such examples.

but in the end the words, statements, and ideology is inherently antisemitic

That is an absurdity, a tautology and profoundly exceptionalist.

People in Israel who are opposed to Israli policies are almost never antisemetic. calling them so is just a lableing, a form of McCarthyism to try and shout them down. They have every right to cricise the policies of their government or criticize policies advocated by others in Israel. The same is true for American Jewswho naturally would focus on Israel.

Where you would meter for and attribute antisemtism, would be people at a distance who have a focus on criticism of Israel but no similar criticism of other states with similar issues/policies -- especially their own state. GE can Ankara or Turkish commentators criticize Isreal given Kurdistan and Cyprus?

 

[Noobtastic]

The later is simply a falsehood. Please point the "legal Definition of antisemitism " in either the EU or US!

The EU's Definition of Antisemitism

The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism.
Working definition: ``Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non*Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.''



In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for ``why things go wrong.'' It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.
Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

• Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
• Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective - such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non*Jews.
• Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
• Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
• Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self*determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
• Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
• Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
• Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
• Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.




http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/102406.htm#_Toc174854638

 

[JJ44]

The EU's Definition of Antisemitism

Those are not legal definitions! Do you even understand what a "report" is? That is a DRAFT report by an agency

There are as many reports form the EU decrying Israel's policies!

You are very confused and severely challenged on facts.

And in fact those documents do not say what you claim they say.
They say: "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Which is in direct opposition to your thesis.

 

[Noobtastic]

Those are not legal definitions! Do you even understand what a "report" is? That is a DRAFT report by an agency

There are as many reports form the EU decrying Israel's policies!

You are very confused and severely challenged on facts.

yes, that is the legal definition of antisemitism sanctioned by the US state department and European Union. Libel laws are in a effect and individuals have been prosecuted under them.

it is recognized as the most official definition.

And in fact those documents do not say what you claim they say.
They say: "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Which is in direct opposition to your thesis.

you claimed denying jewish self determination (a.ik.a antizionism) did not constitute antisemitism, well the EU and USA disagrees.

maybe the arab bigots don't.