Jew vs. Jew.

[routan]

Right from your Wiki quote:



This not discriminatory against the Russians, this is true for ALL Jews the world over . . . you are a Jew if your mother is Jewish and you are not a Jew otherwise.

It's a freaking hate crime they barred all these non-Jews often married to Jews from emigrating to Israel. Oh wait, they DID let them!

Well, it's a freaking hate crime they discriminate against these people they willingly let in their country for jobs and and such. Oh wait, they DON'T!

Ok, then, as a non-Jew I DEMAND the right to regulate Jewish heritage and marriage laws according to what I think they . . . oh wait, that's just STUPID!

The real problem here is that the state of Israel needs to grow up and out of it's more narrow religious genesis and heritage and allow civil marriages alongside religious ones.

Here, the OP would have a point.

But when he pompously concludes, "If not all Jews are created equally..." he intentionally misdirects away from the BASIC FACT of this situation that Jewishness is determined by your mother . . . for ALL Jews.

Perknose, apologies for my ignorance, but can you not convert to the Jewish faith?

If not, is the faith restricted through biological lines? And in this respect, all non-Jews who cannot convert will be not going to heaven?

If yes, are such converts considered gentiles because their mother is not a Jew? Or are they considered "complete" Jews?

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe Perknose gets to the heart of the issue with, "Ok, then, as a non-Jew I DEMAND the right to regulate Jewish heritage and marriage laws according to what I think they . . . oh wait, that's just STUPID!"

But there are some other considerations here, we have said to Mormons, no we will not permit multiple marriage, we have said to other religious cults, no you cannot deny your children basic medical care and let them die of preventable problems.

Then there are other questions in terms of does it represent American values? Yet we support an Israeli state while complaining about the waki religious views of Iran and of the Taliban in Afghanistan. At the same time we permit Israel to repress over 3 million people and deny them basic human rights simply because of their heredity.

And the other thing to point out this is the Israeli government and not the Jewish religion we are talking about, because many Jews support liberalizing the definitions of being a Jews, but are denied a voice because the restrictive version is evidently Israeli Government policy.

 

[routan]

Perknose, apologies for my ignorance, but can you not convert to the Jewish faith?

If not, is the faith restricted through biological lines? And in this respect, all non-Jews who cannot convert will be not going to heaven?

If yes, are such converts considered gentiles because their mother is not a Jew? Or are they considered "complete" Jews?

No response by Perknose?

 

[Doboji]

No response by Perknose?

I will respond... to this.

Biologically Judaism is transferred through the mother to the child. However you can convert to Judaism, but the process is lengthy and very involved.

Judaism doesn't operate under the same concepts of Heaven and Hell like Christianity. Judaism is built around the concept of what we call "Tikkun Olam" meaning healing the world. According to Judaism the world is "broken" and imperfect... and the responsibility of Jews are to fix and perfect the world... once that is done the world itself will become like a "heaven".

Being a Jew isn't a ticket to heaven at all.. rather it is a responsibility to undertake "Tikkun Olam"

 

[werepossum]

I will respond... to this.

Biologically Judaism is transferred through the mother to the child. However you can convert to Judaism, but the process is lengthy and very involved.

Judaism doesn't operate under the same concepts of Heaven and Hell like Christianity. Judaism is built around the concept of what we call "Tikkun Olam" meaning healing the world. According to Judaism the world is "broken" and imperfect... and the responsibility of Jews are to fix and perfect the world... once that is done the world itself will become like a "heaven".

Being a Jew isn't a ticket to heaven at all.. rather it is a responsibility to undertake "Tikkun Olam"

Hey, as long as you aren't "healing the world" by beheading non-believers and shooting school children in the back, I'm happy. The world can always use a little more healing - good luck making it like a "heaven" though.

 

[Doboji]

Maybe Perknose gets to the heart of the issue with, "Ok, then, as a non-Jew I DEMAND the right to regulate Jewish heritage and marriage laws according to what I think they . . . oh wait, that's just STUPID!"

But there are some other considerations here, we have said to Mormons, no we will not permit multiple marriage, we have said to other religious cults, no you cannot deny your children basic medical care and let them die of preventable problems.

Then there are other questions in terms of does it represent American values? Yet we support an Israeli state while complaining about the waki religious views of Iran and of the Taliban in Afghanistan. At the same time we permit Israel to repress over 3 million people and deny them basic human rights simply because of their heredity.

And the other thing to point out this is the Israeli government and not the Jewish religion we are talking about, because many Jews support liberalizing the definitions of being a Jews, but are denied a voice because the restrictive version is evidently Israeli Government policy.

You express this as if this was a one way issue... poor Palestinians, oppressed by Jewish zealots. This simply isn't true... both Israelis and Palestinians express two completely different national identities. This isn't a situation where Palestinians would be happy as Israelis... they want to be Palestinian, and they want to live in Palestine not in Israel. Same thing with Israelis... they want to be Israelis in Israel...

Heredity has nothing to do with the issue at all. The majority of Israel's citizens are of the same heredity as the Palestinians..

Now all of this has NOTHING to do with the issue addressed by the original article. The article addresses a completely different problem within Israeli society... Orthodox vs Conservative vs Reform vs Secular Judaism... The problem is "Judaism" in Israel is defined by the orthodoxy... the Orthodoxy says that in order for a person to be considered "Jewish" that person must either have a Jewish mother or have undertaken an Orthodox conversion to Judaism. Non-Jews and Jews cannot be married in Israel... it's a stupid law. It's an issue of major contention within Israeli society... but it has absolutely no bearing on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[woolfe9999]

The business about who is considered a "Jew" by the orthodox and/or the State of Israel is much ado about an issue that is meaningless to gentiles, and not as big a deal to Jews as people think. Reform synagogues recognize those with a male Jewish parent as being Jewish. I have a Jewish father, catholic mother. I was nonetheless Bar Mitvahed, no questions asked. Judaism is a culture for the majority of people who identify with it anyway. As such, it is more a state of mind than a formal identity. But for those who really are religious, there is a conversion process they can go through if they really are motivated. In the end though, even religious Judaism promises no reward for being a Jew, not in the here and now nor the hereafter. So what does it really matter?

In sum, if you think you're a Jew, you're a Jew.

- wolf

 

[Doboji]

The business about who is considered a "Jew" by the orthodox and/or the State of Israel is much ado about an issue that is meaningless to gentiles, and not as big a deal to Jews as people think. Reform synagogues recognize those with a male Jewish parent as being Jewish. I have a Jewish father, catholic mother. I was nonetheless Bar Mitvahed, no questions asked. Judaism is a culture for the majority of people who identify with it anyway. As such, it is more a state of mind than a formal identity. But for those who really are religious, there is a conversion process they can go through if they really are motivated. In the end though, even religious Judaism promises no reward for being a Jew, not in the here and now nor the hereafter. So what does it really matter?

In sum, if you think you're a Jew, you're a Jew.

- wolf

In Israel it's a real issue right now though... There are a ton of immigrants who think of themselves as Jews but whom the Orthodoxy rejects as Jewish. And in Israel Jewish marriage has to be between "Orthodoxy" defined Jews... of course these people can just declare themselves not-jews, and get married no problem. But then they won't be recognized as a jewish wedding. It's definitely a problem.

But of course this thread wasn't started to discuss this issue.. it was started to show how "Evil" and inhumane Jews are...

 

[routan]

In Israel it's a real issue right now though... There are a ton of immigrants who think of themselves as Jews but whom the Orthodoxy rejects as Jewish. And in Israel Jewish marriage has to be between "Orthodoxy" defined Jews... of course these people can just declare themselves not-jews, and get married no problem. But then they won't be recognized as a jewish wedding. It's definitely a problem.

But of course this thread wasn't started to discuss this issue.. it was started to show how "Evil" and inhumane Jews are...

Doboji, funny. EVERY thread about Muslims is started with that intent. Is every thread about Jews the same?

 

[peonyu]

Since someone brought up Jew bashing all I have to say is Im neither a Jew or a Muslim but as far as which side I favor its a easy question. Jews. Why ? I dont see them ranting and raving and threatening to behead me for not being a Jew. And I dont see Jews blowing up airplanes in the name of Allah for crazy reasons. Also I would likely be pretty safe in a Jewish section of Tel Aviv, whereas I would be asking to get killed by walking in a Muslim section as a non-Muslim. Am I right or wrong. And also how about Buddhists, you never hear of Tibetans slaying Christian tourists there.

Its easy to feel some sympathy for Palestinians but if they shoot you in the back when you intend to help, since you are not a fellow Muslim...That sympathy flies out the window pretty fast. And whatever happened to tolerating other Faiths/cultures ? Perhaps if the Palestinians and other Arab's learned that concept then there would be some peace in the region, and less of the bigoted "Islam only" BS that goes on so much over there.

 

[routan]

Since someone brought up Jew bashing all I have to say is Im neither a Jew or a Muslim but as far as which side I favor its a easy question. Jews. Why ? I dont see them ranting and raving and threatening to behead me for not being a Jew. And I dont see Jews blowing up airplanes in the name of Allah for crazy reasons. Also I would likely be pretty safe in a Jewish section of Tel Aviv, whereas I would be asking to get killed by walking in a Muslim section as a non-Muslim. Am I right or wrong. And also how about Buddhists, you never hear of Tibetans slaying Christian tourists there.

Its easy to feel some sympathy for Palestinians but if they shoot you in the back when you intend to help, since you are not a fellow Muslim...That sympathy flies out the window pretty fast. And whatever happened to tolerating other Faiths/cultures ? Perhaps if the Palestinians and other Arab's learned that concept then there would be some peace in the region, and less of the bigoted "Islam only" BS that goes on so much over there.

peonyu, can you please refer me to where tourists and international civilians have been killed by Palestinians?

Then I can point you to
Rachel Corrie
Kate Edwards
Brian Avery

and then we will continue trading links and events. This will be a good fruitful discussion.

 

[woolfe9999]

In Israel it's a real issue right now though... There are a ton of immigrants who think of themselves as Jews but whom the Orthodoxy rejects as Jewish. And in Israel Jewish marriage has to be between "Orthodoxy" defined Jews... of course these people can just declare themselves not-jews, and get married no problem. But then they won't be recognized as a jewish wedding. It's definitely a problem.

But of course this thread wasn't started to discuss this issue.. it was started to show how "Evil" and inhumane Jews are...

The issue does have *some* relevance among Jews, particularly those in Israel. My point, however, is that from the standpoint of an outsider, it is a tempest in a teapot. It's one thing to be critical of another culture or religion for whipping and stoning rape victims. At least there, basic human rights are at stake. However, so far as who is recognized as being a member of a religion by one sect or another, I just don't see why any outsider has the slightest interest in this, unless it is, as you say, some lame attempt to bash Jews.

BTW, I happen to know that various sects of Islam often do not recognize marriages from the other. I have a Muslim friend who was going to marry a Muslim girl from another sect, and neither set of parents would hear anything of it. They had to call it off. I don't judge Islam for that, though. So far as I'm concerned, it's their business.

- wolf

 

[routan]

The issue does have *some* relevance among Jews, particularly those in Israel. My point, however, is that from the standpoint of an outsider, it is a tempest in a teapot. It's one thing to be critical of another culture or religion for whipping and stoning rape victims. At least there, basic human rights are at stake. However, so far as who is recognized as being a member of a religion by one sect or another, I just don't see why any outsider has the slightest interest in this, unless it is, as you say, some lame attempt to bash Jews.

BTW, I happen to know that various sects of Islam often do not recognize marriages from the other. I have a Muslim friend who was going to marry a Muslim girl from another sect, and neither set of parents would hear anything of it. They had to call it off. I don't judge Islam for that, though. So far as I'm concerned, it's their business.

- wolf

woolfe9999, what was the reason to bring in a comment about Islam and Muslims into a thread about what is happening in Israel and related to Jews?

 

[woolfe9999]

woolfe9999, what was the reason to bring in a comment about Islam and Muslims into a thread about what is happening in Israel and related to Jews?

It was an analogy. Re-read my post carefully and you'll understand the point. And note what I said: I do NOT judge Islam for this practice. In fact, many religions have issues with cross-marriage, particularly among the fundamentalist wings of the religion in question.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

Wolf says, "In sum, if you think you're a Jew, you're a Jew."

Every where but in Israel itself, where those without the genuine Jewish credentials will be denied the right to immigrate to Israel or be a full Israeli citizen if they get in.

What parts of the newly passed Israeli law did you not read wolf?

 

[woolfe9999]

Wolf says, "In sum, if you think you're a Jew, you're a Jew."

Every where but in Israel itself, where those without the genuine Jewish credentials will be denied the right to immigrate to Israel or be a full Israeli citizen if they get in.

What parts of the newly passed Israeli law did you not read wolf?

Yada yada yada. There are things going on far worse than this in 150 other countries,. You only give a rip about this enough to comment on a discussion board because this has to do with Israel and you hate Israel. End of story.

- wolf

 

[routan]

It was an analogy. Re-read my post carefully and you'll understand the point. And note what I said: I do NOT judge Islam for this practice. In fact, many religions have issues with cross-marriage, particularly among the fundamentalist wings of the religion in question.

- wolf

woolfe9999, with all due respect, I dont think referring to a cultural practice by Muslims should be analogous.

By Islamic law, Muslims are allowed to marry anyone of the People of the Book, Jews/Christians/Muslims. What Muslims "practice" wrongly is not matter of analogy.

Nonetheless, that was the only point you raised about Muslims. References were made to some practices in Islamic countries, for no reason I can imagine but to steer direction of the thread on different not-so-flattering to Islam path.

 

[woolfe9999]

woolfe9999, with all due respect, I dont think referring to a cultural practice by Muslims should be analogous.

By Islamic law, Muslims are allowed to marry anyone of the People of the Book, Jews/Christians/Muslims. What Muslims "practice" wrongly is not matter of analogy.

Nonetheless, that was the only point you raised about Muslims. References were made to some practices in Islamic countries, for no reason I can imagine but to steer direction of the thread on different not-so-flattering to Islam path.

Actually the analogy is a reasonable one. The fact is, there is no biblical prohibition of Jews marrying non Jews either. Nor is there a biblical definition of "Jew" being through the matriarchal line. These things have developed over time and Jews disagree internally about it. I don't see a huge difference between that and what happens in Islam with marriage. My friend told me that Muslim parents do not generally tolerate marrying out of sect, though some younger Muslims are starting to rebel against it. Good for them, but really it isn't any of my business. As I said, ALL religions have their own kooky rules about marriage, whether they spring from a scripture or some practice that developed culturally over time.

So far as my mention of rape victims getting whipped, my opinion is that this practice is cultural, not religious. This and other practices such as honor killings seem to be a feature of parts of Asia especially the Indian subcontinent, and it predates Islam. But the example is still relevant because it doesn't matter if we are talking about religion or culture. Either way, my point is this: I do not judge other religions or cultures for internal practices and behaviors unless or until it rises to the level of serious human rights violations.

So to be clear: Israel killing Palestinians - fair to comment. Certain cultures engaging in honor killing or stoning rape victims - fair to comment. Internal religious practices like who is recognized by one sect or another or what marriages are OK or not OK? It's none of the business of outsider so far as I'm concerned.

- wolf