Japan's Attack on Pearl Harbor - Conspiracy Theory or Conspiracy Fact ?

wwswimming

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Jan 21, 2006
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Obviously, most Americans will agree, when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, it did not happen by accident. It was the result of careful planning, and therefore meets the definition of "Conspiracy" -

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conspiracy

"1.
the act of conspiring.
2.
an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government."


If we had a poll, was Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory or Conspiracy Fact ? - most of us would say, it was Conspiracy fact.

The Japanese government in the months & years prior to 12-7-41 participated in "an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons".


In other words - to get to the point - most of us do acknowledge Conspiracy Fact.

But let us consider the work of Robert Stinnett, and his book, "Day of Deceit, the Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor" -

http://www.amazon.com/Day-Deceit-Tru.../dp/0743201299

"Using documents pried loose through the Freedom of Information Act during 17 years of research, Stinnett provides overwhelming evidence that FDR and his top advisers knew that Japanese warships were heading toward Hawaii.

The heart of his argument is even more inflammatory: Stinnett argues that FDR, who desired to sway public opinion in support of U.S. entry into WWII, instigated a policy intended to provoke a Japanese attack.

The plan was outlined in a U.S. Naval Intelligence secret strategy memo of October 1940; Roosevelt immediately began implementing its eight steps (which included deploying U.S. warships in Japanese territorial waters and imposing a total embargo intended to strangle Japan's economy), all of which, according to Stinnett, climaxed in the Japanese attack. Stinnett, a decorated naval veteran of WWII who served under then Lt. George Bush, substantiates his charges with a wealth of persuasive documents, including many government and military memos and transcripts.

Demolishing the myth that the Japanese fleet maintained strict radio silence, he shows that several Japanese naval broadcasts, intercepted by American cryptographers in the 10 days before December 7, confirmed that Japan intended to start the war at Pearl Harbor.

Stinnett convincingly demonstrates that the U.S. top brass in Hawaii--Pacific Fleet commander Adm. Husband Kimmel and Lt. Gen. Walter Short--were kept out of the intelligence loop on orders from Washington and were then scapegoated for allegedly failing to anticipate the Japanese attack (in May 1999, the U.S. Senate cleared their names). Kimmel moved his fleet into the North Pacific, actively searching for the suspected Japanese staging area, but naval headquarters ordered him to turn back."


As soon as someone suggests that the US had actionable foreknowledge of the attack, many Americans and AT members will shriek "Conspiracy Theory", even though there is considerable evidence that the US did have foreknowledge of the December 7 attack.

We therefore see the purpose of the Rhetorical Term "Conspiracy Theory". It is used whenever someone suggests that someone in the US was involved in a Conspiracy (other than Watergate).

The purpose of the term "Conspiracy Theory" is not to illuminate, but to obfuscate.

In some clique-ish environments, group members then compete to see who can most thoroughly ridicule the person presenting the unwelcome facts, by parroting terms such as "batshit insane tin-foil-hatter crazy."


As far as the attack on Pearl Harbor goes, we already proved that you believe in Conspiracy Fact - you do believe that Japan planned the attack. It was not perpetrated by some crazed Japanese soldiers who drank some bad sake and acted randomly & independently.

Personally, I would say that the provocation of the Japanese qualifies as Conspiracy Theory - not to denigrate Stinnett, but because I have not yet seen enough proof to accept that part of the history as Conspiracy Fact.

That FDR had foreknowledge of the attack - yes, that part is Conspiracy Fact.
 

HeXen

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Dec 13, 2009
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uhm, ok. there is a conspiracy at my work right now to get rid of a guy who sucks, so what. theory or fact, i don't care as long as they get rid of the guy.
 

llee

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Oct 27, 2009
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interesting analysis. what is your opinion on the aircraft carriers that weren't present at Pearl when it was attacked? was that a deliberate move to retain a fighting capability for the us?
 

ProfJohn

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Jul 28, 2006
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The book is full of crap:
Historians of the period are dismissive of Stinnett's claims. An article in Salon quotes CIA historian Donald Steury:

[Stinnett] concocted this theory pretty much from whole cloth. Those who have been able to check his alleged sources also are unanimous in their condemnation of his methodology. Basically, the author has made up his sources; when he does not make up the source, he lies about what the source says.[2]

Certain points in Stennitt's argument were disputed by many reviewers. His characterization of the McCollum memorandum was not accepted by Conrad Crane, who wrote:

A close reading shows that its recommendations were supposed to deter and contain Japan, while better preparing the United States for a future conflict in the Pacific. There is an offhand remark that an overt Japanese act of war would make it easier to garner public support for actions against Japan, but the document's intent was not to ensure that event happened.[3]

Philip Zelikow, writing in Foreign Affairs, objected to Stennitt's claim that the Japanese naval code was being read at the time (the JN-25 code was changed shortly before the attack and was not decrypted again until May 1942),[16] an objection also raised by Crane[3] A review posted on the U.S. Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association website addresses the intelligence issues in greater detail and disputes claims that the fleet was detected through direction finding; the author also criticizes Stinnett's use of testimony from Robert Ogg, originally identified as "Seaman Z" by Toland in his 1986 book.[17] Indeed, Ogg expressly denies saying what Toland quotes him as saying.[18] In their annotations on the 1995 Pentagon study of the attack, Frederic Borch and Daniel Martinez, chief historian at the USS Arizona Memorial, also dispute these claims and call his claims "totally false".[19]

Furthermore, Stinnett makes numerous and contradictory claims of the number of messages originated by the Kido Butai, attributing to it messages from shore stations, Yamamoto's flagship (which was not accompanying the task force), deception measures, and traffic from before the task force even sailed.[20] Stinnett either does not understand the meaning of "radio silence", or is deliberately mis-stating the evidence. Moreover, he finds "not a single one" originating from the Kido Butai after it sortied 26 November.
 

Anarchist420

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In addition to that, Truman dropped the bomb on the Japanese even though they offered to surrender under the condition they could keep their emperor. Harry Truman was the greatest war criminal of the 20th Century, much more of a war criminal than Emperor Hirohito was.

Even though I'm an American, I kind of wish the Axis powers had won WWII. considering all of the atrocities the allied powers committed (Eisenhower's order for French Africans to rape german women, FDR manuevering the Japanese into firing the first shot, the Atom bomb on innocent Japanese civilians, Britain firebombing German civilians, the Soviets raping german women, etc., etc.) Although the best thing that could've happened was for America to not get involved, as it was a totally preventable war for Americans just like all the others except for the Revolutionary War.
 

Anarchist420

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The book is full of crap:
You're full of crap. The Japanese would've had no reason to attack the U.S. if we hadn't done something to them first. Not only did FDR do all 8 things recommended on the McCollum Memo, he went beyond those 8 things.

Stinnet's book is also not the only book that proves that FDR manuevered the Japanese into firing the first shot. Another book, released last year (IIRC), quotes FDR's wife as saying he was relieved when he found out that Japan had finally attacked Pearl Harbor.

See "Japan's gift to FDR" at mises.org.

If FDR could jail hundreds of his people for violating the NRA codes, then I don't think he would feel any sympathy for anyone. The dude was a tyrant. He didn't even care about saving the Jews from Hitler, all he wanted to do was stop Hitler from conquering Britain which had severely aggressed against the Germans. FDR was a fascist, plain and simple and one of the worst people to ever live.
 
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wwswimming

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Jan 21, 2006
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interesting analysis. what is your opinion on the aircraft carriers that weren't present at Pearl when it was attacked? was that a deliberate move to retain a fighting capability for the us?

i have read some accounts about the order being given to move the good boats out of the harbor, so that the older boats would be sunk, in effect doing a service for the US Navy.

i would call that a THEORY, because i have not seen enough documentation to substantiate it.

therefore if i was to guess whether it was a deliberate move, it would be a theory about a theory.


in general, the conspiracy facts are quite interesting enough.

especially in the cases of the modern day Pearl Harbor - 9-11, and in the case of the "Ultimate Bogeyman", the status that is normally accorded to Adolf Hitler.


but i am tempted to order Stinnett's book, to see how well documented his work is. i.e. to look at the references he uses, and to see if i can get my hands on them.
 

MotF Bane

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Dec 22, 2006
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In addition to that, Truman dropped the bomb on the Japanese even though they offered to surrender under the condition they could keep their emperor. Harry Truman was the greatest war criminal of the 20th Century, much more of a war criminal than Emperor Hirohito was.

Even though I'm an American, I kind of wish the Axis powers had won WWII. considering all of the atrocities the allied powers committed (Eisenhower's order for French Africans to rape german women, FDR manuevering the Japanese into firing the first shot, the Atom bomb on innocent Japanese civilians, Britain firebombing German civilians, the Soviets raping german women, etc., etc.) Although the best thing that could've happened was for America to not get involved, as it was a totally preventable war for Americans just like all the others except for the Revolutionary War.

Get a fucking history book. Are you insane? The atrocities the Allied powers committed? Have you heard of the Holocaust? The Rape of Nanking? The Bataan Death March?
 

Anarchist420

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Get a fucking history book. Are you insane? The atrocities the Allied powers committed? Have you heard of the Holocaust? The Rape of Nanking? The Bataan Death March?
I've heard of those, but there is absolutely no reason why the Allied powers should be deified. OTOH, that's what happens in war.
 

MotF Bane

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I've heard of those, but there is absolutely no reason why the Allied powers should be deified. OTOH, that's what happens in war.

So rape, pillaging, murder, enforced marches, and genocide are what happens in war, are they? Well, there goes the entirety of everything else you said earlier as the Allied atrocities, and then some really.
 

benzylic

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Jun 12, 2006
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i have read some accounts about the order being given to move the good boats out of the harbor, so that the older boats would be sunk, in effect doing a service for the US Navy.

i would call that a THEORY, because i have not seen enough documentation to substantiate it.

.

In 1941 battleships were the most important ships in the Navy, if the US knew about it they would have moved the battleships and not the aircraft carriers. At that point in time carriers werent the big offensive weapon they are today.

In addition to that, Truman dropped the bomb on the Japanese even though they offered to surrender under the condition they could keep their emperor. Harry Truman was the greatest war criminal of the 20th Century, much more of a war criminal than Emperor Hirohito was.

.

And the Japanese had been told many many times we would accept nothing less that UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER
 

Hayabusa Rider

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How dare people question FDR. He was a god. Well some people believe that at least.

I don't know who knew what about the attack itself, but I'd suggest going back and looking at US/Japanese relations starting with Matthew C. Perry.
 

Lemon law

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Nov 6, 2005
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In terms of dumb conspiracy theories, many of us never got beyond the question if Nero fiddled while Rome burned or did Marie Antoinette really say let them eat cake.

But I have read some of the various Pearl Harbor attack conspiracy evidence, and the much of the evidence, IMHO, is not that conclusive.

But what we somewhat ignore on this thread is that were mistakes and delays on the Japanese side also. Because by the Japanese code of the bushido, its dishonor to attack an enemy not warned, and accordingly the Japanese official at the Japanese embassy in the US were supposed to deliver to to the US President, a vague warning the Japan could go on the warpath at any time and such message was required to be delivered before the attack. And to due to Japanese embassy translations delays, as I recall their translator had taken the day off, the message was not delivered until after the Pearl Harbor attack.

And as I recall, FDR also on his part, had sent an urgent warning to Pearl Harbor Naval officials warning that war was possible, but the message was not received at Pearl Harbor until after the attack began. Simply because somewhere down the line of command the message was not sent top priority. The other thing to mention is that Pearl Harbor Radar detected the Japanese incoming planes while about an hour away, and that information was ignored.

But on just that for the lack of a single horse shoe nail human factors, is often the hinge which world history turns on.
 
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