Japanese War Museum: Fact or Fiction?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
That's probably the worst explanation of I've ever seen. Talk about a logic fail. Get back to me when you've thought of a real reason distinction.

Let's face it, even Sandorski is willing to shit on whole groups of religious people when it suits him:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=19911103&postcount=2

That statement quoted means that he's willing to hold those christians who are doing it responsible, not every other christian.

HOWEVER, there are instances where there are authorities of faith, like Priests, Mullahs and so on and they are definently responsible for any hate speech they spew or any violent acts they recommend...

I've killed people because of actions like that and i'm fairly sure Sandorski doesn't disagree with those actions.

I'm sorry but you're the one spermie that shouldn't have made it.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
War of aggression? Tell me this, you have no problem with Western imperialism but you have a problem with the Japanese one?

Western Imperialism may have not been nice but there is a reason why the Japanese were/are reviled in almost every Asian nation they set foot in, and why American, British and French forces received the support of the native populace in those same nations during the war. Do us all a favor and crack open a non-Japanese history book.
 
Last edited:

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
lol, ya, I stereotype on occasion, but I'm not suggesting taking away their Rights.

I've never suggested that Muslims don't have a right to build their mosque, but I know you keep going back to it because it's an easy strawman.

You generalize and hold groups accountable for their members when it suits you. I'm guessing you just defend Islam the way you do because you want to stick it to various conservative posters. Problem is you propose ideas that aren't consistent. Face it, Japanese should recognize the bad things done in their country's name just like Muslims should recognize the bad things done in the name of their religion. Nobody's saying they have to be punished to this day, just that they don't try and ignore it and expect anyone else to buy their whitewashing.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Sheffield, I'm afraid you just don't have what it takes to make a cogent argument. Stick to personal insults.

I made an argument, a highly logical one which i think everyone will agree on but you.

I'm sorry, but you're too stupid to admit that you were wrong and now that you understand that "oh, hell i didn't think this through" you just won't admit you were wrong.

I've been wrong plenty of times, admitted it and moved on. I suggest you do the same, in time, you can be an inch of the mile of the man i am ;)
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
I've never suggested that Muslims don't have a right to build their mosque, but I know you keep going back to it because it's an easy strawman.

You generalize and hold groups accountable for their members when it suits you. I'm guessing you just defend Islam the way you do because you want to stick it to various conservative posters. Problem is you propose ideas that aren't consistent. Face it, Japanese should recognize the bad things done in their country's name just like Muslims should recognize the bad things done in the name of their religion. Nobody's saying they have to be punished to this day, just that they don't try and ignore it and expect anyone else to buy their whitewashing.

They have fool. Where have you been?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Thats odd. Earlier you defended the Japanese story of Nanking, claiming that the Chinese didn't keep good records of it. LOL. Now you change your tune.

Are you and JoS retarded or have you been hit on the head one too many times? I said I do not know the whole story. That means I only know part of the story, the Japanese side. I keep telling you that your youtube video was propaganda yet you have nothing else to give me. If the Chinese do not have a non-propaganda-laced story, then I'm not interested. Otherwise, find me something so we can move on.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Western Imperialism may have not been nice but there is a reason why the Japanese were/are reviled in almost every Asian nation they set foot in, and why American, British and French forces received the support of the native populace in those same nations during the war. Do us all a favor and crack open a non-Japanese history book.

So your answer is yes?
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
. If the Chinese do not have a non-propaganda-laced story, then I'm not interested. Otherwise, find me something so we can move on.

I think Wikipedia is a good neutral source. Lets start there, shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking

"The Nanking Massacre or Nanjing Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking, was a six-week period following the Japanese capture of the city of Nanjing (Nanking), the former capital of the Republic of China, on December 13, 1937. During this period, hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians and disarmed soldiers were murdered and 20,000–80,000 women were raped[1] by soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army."


Gee, seems pretty shitty, eh?



"The International Military Tribunal of the Far East estimates 260,000 casualties; China's official estimate is 300,000 casualties, based on the evaluation of the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal. Japanese historians estimate a lower death toll, in the vicinity of 100,000–200,000. Some claim the existence of only 40,000 deaths or even deny that a widespread, systematic massacre occurred at all, claiming that any deaths were either justified militarily, accidental or isolated incidents of unauthorized atrocities."

Reminds me of holocaust deniers.


"The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly.[41] A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped.[42] The women were often killed immediately after the rape, often through explicit mutilation[43] or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo,[44] or other objects into the vagina."

Nanjing_Massacre_rape_killed.jpg


Sounds like something humans do. :rolleyes:


"There are also accounts of Japanese troops forcing families to commit acts of incest.[49] Sons were forced to rape their mothers, fathers were forced to rape daughters. One pregnant woman who was gang-raped by Japanese soldiers gave birth only a few hours later; although the baby appeared to be physically unharmed (Robert B. Edgerton, Warriors of the Rising Sun). Monks who had declared a life of celibacy were also forced to rape women."

More subhuman activities.



"Immediately after the fall of the city, Japanese troops embarked on a determined search for former soldiers, in which thousands of young men were captured. Many were taken to the Yangtze River, where they were machine-gunned. What was probably the single largest massacre of Chinese troops occurred along the banks of the Yangtze River on December 18 in what is called the Straw String Gorge Massacre. Japanese soldiers took most of the morning tying all of the POWs hands together and in the dusk divided them into 4 columns, and opened fire at them. Unable to escape, the POWs could only scream and thrash in desperation. It took an hour for the sounds of death to stop, and even longer for the Japanese to bayonet each individual. Most were dumped into the Yangtze. It is estimated that at least 57,500 Chinese POWs were killed."

:rolleyes:



"The Japanese troops gathered 1,300 Chinese soldiers and civilians at Taiping Gate and killed them. The victims were blown up with landmines, then doused with petrol before being set on fire. Those that were left alive afterward were killed with bayonets."


:rolleyes:


I'll end it with a picture of the Japanese burying people alive.

Chinese_civilians_to_be_buried_alive.jpg




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Thanks for the more neutral link but it is not an impartial source. Are the archives from the military tribunal online? Those are certainly horrorific to Westerners but they are normal for Asians. The Chinese and Koreans were just as brutal to their own citizens following the war as the Japanese were to them.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
I didn't think I could please you, can't say I didn't try.

I told you man, I like to look at things from all sides. Koreans and Chinese will complain about Japan's overzealous execution of the war yet they say nothing about what happened after the war when their own governments took over from where the Japanese left off. It's like hearing Arabs protesting Israel for persecuting Palestinians but at the same time these Arabs mistreat or do not want Palestinians in their country. Hypocrisy.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Western Imperialism may have not been nice but there is a reason why the Japanese were/are reviled in almost every Asian nation they set foot in, and why American, British and French forces received the support of the native populace in those same nations during the war. Do us all a favor and crack open a non-Japanese history book.

British imperialism was among the worst of all mankind. Many people supported the Japanese as a way to do away with the British monsters. Do us all a favor and crack open a history textbook. Many of the acts that the Japanese inflicted upon countries pale to what the British were doing. Hundreds of millions were slaughtered. And it happened for CENTURIES, not decades.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
I'm no expert on it, but from what I have gleaned over the years, what's in the OP is certainly part of the story. Left out some details for sure, but it's also likely our take on it also leaves out certain details too.

This is actually an interesting flipside to the German side and the recent thread on the Illegality of Denying the Holocaust. Clearly Japan hasn't taken the same stance towards their atrocities the way Germany has.

Reality fail.

Germany denies their atrocities all the time. They just don't deny one of them.
 
Last edited:

dighn

Lifer
Aug 12, 2001
22,820
4
81
I told you man, I like to look at things from all sides. Koreans and Chinese will complain about Japan's overzealous execution of the war yet they say nothing about what happened after the war when their own governments took over from where the Japanese left off. It's like hearing Arabs protesting Israel for persecuting Palestinians but at the same time these Arabs mistreat or do not want Palestinians in their country. Hypocrisy.

"Overzealous execution of the war" eh? I'm not even going to comment on that because that alone says a lot.

It doesn't matter what the Chinese did to themselves; that doesn't absolve Japan of all responsibility for its own crimes and excuse the kind of historical revisionism still going on in Japan. The Chinese have done some terrible things to themselves in recent history yes, but there was nothing approaching the kind of savagery practiced by the Japanese military.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
"Overzealous execution of the war" eh? I'm not even going to comment on that because that alone says a lot.

It doesn't matter what the Chinese did to themselves; that doesn't absolve Japan of all responsibility for its own crimes and excuse the kind of historical revisionism still going on in Japan. The Chinese have done some terrible things to themselves in recent history yes, but there was nothing approaching the kind of savagery practiced by the Japanese military.

This is how these people fight. Look at what they did to us in Vietnam. Look at what they're doing to captured soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Besides, how you die doesn't matter once you're dead. As CanofWorms mentioned, Western imperialists may not have been overzealous in their execution but they killed a lot as well.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
So your answer is yes?

My answer is: The Japanese soldier's use of children, pregnant woman, the elderly, etc for bayonet practice illustrated they did not have altruistic motives with their war of aggression in the Pacific.
 
Last edited:

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
British imperialism was among the worst of all mankind. Many people supported the Japanese as a way to do away with the British monsters. Do us all a favor and crack open a history textbook. Many of the acts that the Japanese inflicted upon countries pale to what the British were doing. Hundreds of millions were slaughtered. And it happened for CENTURIES, not decades.

Yet when they got taste of what the Japan's rule over them would be like they fled in terror and rebelled. Of course continue own with your apologist rant.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
Some did, others did not. Of course continue on with your apologist rant.

Awesome comeback. Using your reasoning you could justify the holocaust because some concentration camp prisoners also acted as cell block officers. So why not use that fail logic of your use the Treaty of Versailles to justify Germany's aggression and the holocaust? After all 2 wrongs make right it seems in your mind.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,137
12,457
136
I told you man, I like to look at things from all sides. Koreans and Chinese will complain about Japan's overzealous execution of the war yet they say nothing about what happened after the war when their own governments took over from where the Japanese left off. It's like hearing Arabs protesting Israel for persecuting Palestinians but at the same time these Arabs mistreat or do not want Palestinians in their country. Hypocrisy.


Have you looked at the Holocaust from both sides?

If so, what was your final opinion? Was Hitler right in wanting to exterminate all the Jews?

His treatment of the Jews wasn't much different than Japan's treatment of the Chinese, except that the Japanese didn't bother much with niceties such as the German Death Camps.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Awesome comeback. Using your reasoning you could justify the holocaust because some concentration camp prisoners also acted as cell block officers. So why not use that fail logic of your use the Treaty of Versailles to justify Germany's aggression and the holocaust? After all 2 wrongs make right it seems in your mind.

I'm not justifying any atrocity. I simply stated that the actions of the Japanese paled in comparison with others such as the British, opposing what you claimed. They both participated in atrocities.

However, you do appear to be justifying one of the worst atrocities of history. You stated "American, British and French forces received the support of the native populace in those same nations during the war." So was the UK's Bengal genocide, where 4 million people were slaughtered, welcomed by the native populace?
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I'm not justifying any atrocity. I simply stated that the actions of the Japanese paled in comparison with others such as the British, opposing what you claimed. They both participated in atrocities.

However, you do appear to be justifying one of the worst atrocities of history. You stated "American, British and French forces received the support of the native populace in those same nations during the war." So was the UK's Bengal genocide, where 4 million people were slaughtered, welcomed by the native populace?

Justifying it? Where have I explicitly justified Western Imperialism exactly other then in your crude and vague assertions?

Also we have tons of books, college courses, etc on the subject of Western Imperialism and its effect both bad/good around the world. Can you say that about Japan and their almost complete denial of what they did in Asia during WW2? No you can't because to this day they still refuse to acknowledge any major wrong doing and instead they use your flawed line of reasoning to dismiss what happened by bringing up past events to dismiss their actions....aka 2 wrongs making a right.
 
Last edited:

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
You can grasp at all your implied yes remarks you want but you've basically made yourself into a giant fool in this thread.
Have I? I'm not the one excusing one set of imperialism while demonizing another. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about since you only understand it from one point of view. By the way, 'White man's burden' went out of fashion a century ago. Try to keep up with the times.