ITT: We propose our own Socket AM1 SKUs

[cbn]

Last time i checked the 1037U was better than a 2650, even on DX9 (Icestorm) whiout even using DC, and you can get one for $70 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813135350

This ECS 1037U Mini-ITX is even cheaper at $62.99 with free shipping:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G237CMI/...xtension-kb-20

And guesstimating roughly by existing passmark scores, I would say the 1.8 Ghz Ivy Bridge could be almost 30% faster than a hypothetical 2.4 Ghz dual core socket AM1. (Comparing 1037U to the stock clocked 1.45 GHz Sempron 2650 it is more than twice as fast going by passmark scores of 1782 vs. 833)

And while NM70 doesn't have usb 3.0, it does have one SATA 6 Gbps and three SATA 3 Gbps. (2 more SATA ports than AM1).

.....And remember this is tech that made it to retail well over a year ago.

As far as graphics go, 1037U has six Gen 7 EUs at 350 Mhz base and 1000 MHz max dynamic frequency. This compared to J1800's four Gen 7 EUs with 688 MHz base and 792 MHz max dynamic graphics frequency. (The J2900 only improves max dynamic frequency to 896 Mhz, while keeping the same base frequency as the J1800.)

So I have think 1037U (17 watt platform) would be in some ways a better platform to compare to AM1 (25 watt platform) than Bay Trail-D (10 watt platform).

 

[Shivansps]

tecnically, its cheaper, but with just 1 SO-DIMM slot?... the other one cost just $7 more.

 

[cbn]

tecnically, its cheaper, but with just 1 SO-DIMM slot?... the other one cost just $7 more.

Yes, it would be limited to single channel DDR3 1600 which makes me wonder how fast the 1037U iGPU runs in a steady state gaming benchmark.

My guess is that it is probably somewhere just short of the 1000 MHz max clock, probably around 850 Mhz or so.

So maybe six EUs (Gen 7) running a steady state 850 MHz doesn't really need dual channel?

In any event, I think 1037U is going to come out stronger in playable frame rates gaming test (ie, push GPU workloads as high as possible via increases in resolution and/or detail settings, but keep average FPS at 30 or above) This is a shame because there doesn't appear to be any good reason for AMD to bin Sempron 2650 as low as it does. (More than one power consumption test I have seen has pegged Sempron 2650 as the lowest power consuming SKU in the AM1 line-up.)

 

[Shivansps]

in case if its of any use, i did those myselft.

1037U
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/3946943

2650
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/4023292

 

[cbn]

in case if its of any use, i did those myselft.

1037U
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/3946943

2650
http://www.3dmark.com/3dm/4023292

Can you run firestrike for the Sempron 2650?

 

[Shivansps]

No now, and there is no point, the 2650 its gona be better on DX11 because it already is on DX10, ill say they are petty much tied @ DDR3-1333, but thats just the thing, Sempron 2650 supports DDR3-1333 max, Celeron 1037U can use DDR3-1600 and DC, there is no doubt that its gona be better on IGP and FAR better on CPU.
And about DC advantages, even a HD2000 on a B840 can perform better on DC.

J1800 and 2650 are 2 CPU that should no exist at all, really, and the 3850 cost just 2 bucks more, And J1800 is something i cant belive, much like dual Celeron N, i mean, tablet sku does not even have a dual, wth are they doing on desktop/notebooks?

3850 is far better contender to the 1037U.

 

[cbn]

3850 is far better contender to the 1037U.

Well unfortunately even that part loses to 1037U in Passmark:

3850: 1746 (single thread 518) http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Sempron+3850+APU+with+Radeon+R3
1037U: 1782 (single thread 954) http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Celeron+1037U+@+1.80GHz

Furthermore, I think single thread for gaming will be more important for the older less GPU intensive games these processors will be limited to playing.

J1800 and 2650 are 2 CPU that should no exist at all, really, and the 3850 cost just 2 bucks more, And J1800 is something i cant belive, much like dual Celeron N, i mean, tablet sku does not even have a dual, wth are they doing on desktop/notebooks?

Quad core is obviously better (assuming the same IPC and frequency per core), but if AMD is going to make a dual core....they might as well clock it fast since they have the thermal headroom. (I will say at least Intel provides a similiar clockspeed on the J1800 as the quad core J2900).

P.S. The price gap on Amazon was larger a week ago, $28 for 2650 and $36 for 3850. (Now it is $31 2650 and $36 3850)

 

[cbn]

Some more comparisons using Passmark:

Sempron 2650: 833 http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Sempron+2650+APU+with+Radeon+R3
Celeron J1800: 1047 http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Celeron+J1800+@+2.41GHz

J1800 wins by a margin of 25%

Using web benchmarks:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8067/...athlon-53505150-and-sempron-38502650-tested/6

Sunspider 1.0.2 (Lower is better)

Sempron 2650: 632 milliseconds
Celeron J1800: 484 milliseconds

J1800 wins by a margin of 30%

Mozilla Kraken 1.1 (lower is better)

Sempron 2650:6483 milliseconds
Celeron J1800: 4306 milliseconds

J1800 wins by a margin of 50%

WebXPRT (higher is better)

Sempron 2650: 597
Celeron J1800: 830

J1800 wins by a margin of 39%

Google Octane v2 (higher is better)

Sempron 2650: 5698
Celeron J1800: 7861

J1800 wins by a margin of 38%

Overall, it is hard to imagine why AMD clocked Sempron 2650 so low. Certainly Sempron 2650 has a better iGPU than Celeron J1800, but the processor is not a 10 watt fanless desktop like the Celeron is.

I think if AMD is going to release a processor with a fan on it (to compete with Intel fanless), they should make the cpu part stronger.

 

[Abwx]

Overall, it is hard to imagine why AMD clocked Sempron 2650 so low. Certainly Sempron 2650 has a better iGPU than Celeron J1800, but the processor is not a 10 watt fanless desktop like the Celeron is.

Because AMD priced the Sempron 3850 as the J1800 opponent.

The CPU is not fanless but its comsumption is barely 10W, in Luxball Sala it can be estimated to 9-10W...

The J1800 comsume obviously less but this is due to the weak IGP that has low throughput wich is not compensated by the CPU better perfs.

http://www.golem.de/news/kabini-fue...lte-jaguare-fuer-jedermann-1404-105670-2.html

 

[cbn]

Because AMD priced the Sempron 3850 as the J1800 opponent.

Here are the lowest US prices I can find at the moment (with Mini-ITX as the form factor):

Socket AM1 Mini -ITX motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130759 ($33.99, free shipping)

Sempron 2650: http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new ($31.00, with free shipping for orders $35.00 and over)
Sempron 3850: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOMFFUG/...xtension-kb-20 ($36.00, free shipping)

Socket AM1 (Mini-ITX) total with Sempron 2650: $64.99 with free shipping
Socket AM1 (Mini-ITX) total with Sempron 3850: $69.99 with free shipping


J1800:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KXP548U/...xtension-kb-20 ($54.99 after $10 rebate, free shipping)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K8QFR4U/...xtension-kb-20 ($59.99, free shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...14&ignorebbr=1 ($59.99 plus $2.99 shipping) (My mistake, this is micro ATX form factor, not Mini-ITX)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...98&ignorebbr=1 ($59.99 plus $2.99 shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...11&ignorebbr=1 ($61.99 free shipping)

1037U:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G237CMI/...xtension-kb-20 ($62.99, free shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...50&ignorebbr=1 ($69.99 plus $3.99 shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...36&ignorebbr=1 ($71.99 free shipping)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...93&ignorebbr=1 ($74.99, free shipping)

Overall, I would have to say Sempron 2650 lines up better with J1800 and Sempron 3850 lines up better with Intel 1037U (a 17 watt BGA dual core processor).

But even then, a person could make an argument for the single channel 1037U board (@ $62.99) to compete with Sempron 2650 (@ 64.99 combo price) as well. (Both processor platforms are Mini-ITX, roughly the same price and both have fans).

P.S. Regarding the above prices, Sempron 2650 was $28 Free shipping on Amazon last week (a rarity, I am disappointed the price increased back to $31). ECS also has a J1800 Mini-ITX that is out of stock at Newegg that goes for $51.99.

 

[Abwx]

Here are the lowest US prices I can find at the moment (with Mini-ITX as the form factor):

Socket AM1 (Mini-ITX) total with Sempron 2650: $64.99 with free shipping
Socket AM1 (Mini-ITX) total with Sempron 3850: $69.99 with free shipping

Overall, I would have to say Sempron 2650 lines up better with J1800 and Sempron 3850 lines up better with Intel 1037U (a 17 watt BGA dual core processor).

You can see that there s no point going 2C given the price difference, the 1037U is not a contender for the S3850, i dont understand why you are systematicaly comparing an AMD CPU to an Intel one that is obviously faster in each comparison cases.

Besides i wouldnt use Newegg as a systematic exemple as they have obviously a pricing policy that increase prices once they detect a very desirable feature, and irrespective of the manufacturers pricing, their last finding is that the Asus AM1A ITX is very good for overclocking, hence they are price gouging this item by about 50%.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...eId=1&name=AM1

I wouldnt consider anything else than 4C for those low power APUs, the 2C can eventualy be used for very specific tasks and usages where very low power is a necessity, i can only see embedded applications making use of thoses lowish variants but for DT it s somewhat undersized unless you do only some surf and offices tasks.

 

[cbn]

the 1037U is not a contender for the S3850, i dont understand why you are systematicaly comparing an AMD CPU to an Intel one that is obviously faster in each comparison cases.

Sempron compared to 1037U is a very valid comparison because:

1. Both are Mini-ITX
2. Both have fans (Intel is 17 watt platform and AMD is 25 watt platform)
3. Both are similarly priced.

If anything comparing AM1 Sempron to Celeron J1800 is unfair because:

1. Celeron J1800 is cheaper
2. Celeron J1800 is passively cooled, and Sempron comes with a fan

Why compare AMD AM1 Sempron to a lower priced platform (J1800) that is passively cooled, when the real competitor 1037U (with a fan) is the same price as AM1?

In other words, fanned processors at the same price make for a good comparison. (While comparing more expensive fanned processors to lower priced fanless processor makes for a bad comparison)

 

[cbn]

Besides i wouldnt use Newegg as a systematic exemple as they have obviously a pricing policy that increase prices once they detect a very desirable feature, and irrespective of the manufacturers pricing, their last finding is that the Asus AM1A ITX is very good for overclocking, hence they are price gouging this item by about 50%.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...eId=1&name=AM1

ASUS's overclocking Mini-ITX board has always been more expensive (Since day 1 of the release) compared to the other AM1 boards. It also carries the same price premium at other retailers as well. So I would not call that price gouging.

P.S. Not all my prices were from Newegg, I used Amazon when they were cheaper than Newegg for the same item.

 

[Abwx]

ASUS's overclocking Mini-ITX board has always been more expensive (Since day 1 of the release) compared to the other AM1 boards.

In the US perhaps since the retailers seems to agressively search for opportunistic profits, remember Newegg pricing when coinmining was immediatly coin cashed with reals $!!

Here the AM1AI ITX cost almost the same as other lowly priced MBs, instead this is the DC input featured Asrock AM1H ITX that is used as lemon pressurizer...

http://www.ldlc.com/informatique/pieces-informatique/carte-mere/c4293/+fv160-10686.html

Price are with 20.6% VAT included, also that s not the cheaper site but it s quite representative of the local market pricing of the differents MBs.

Edit : low frequency items like the S2650 and particularly the S3850 make sense with such a MB, there s also the Asrock AM1B ITX that has all the overclocking features while being much more better than the Asus board since it has double the USB3 and SATA3 ports.

 

[cbn]

In the US perhaps since the retailers seems to agressively search for opportunistic profits, remember Newegg pricing when coinmining was immediatly coin cashed with reals $!!

Bitcoin mining is a little different because the price increase did not come from the video cards in question suddenly adopting advanced features.

With the ASUS Mini-ITX at least we can say the price increase has a justification based on a difference in feature set compared to other AM1 boards.

 

[cbn]

I wouldnt consider anything else than 4C for those low power APUs, the 2C can eventualy be used for very specific tasks and usages where very low power is a necessity, i can only see embedded applications making use of thoses lowish variants but for DT it s somewhat undersized unless you do only some surf and offices tasks.

I think the dual core is still very valid, but AMD needs to increase clocks.

I mean just look at what Apple and Nvidia are using for their top SOCs.....a dual core.

Furthermore, I have to imagine Apple focusing on increasing IPC and clocks in the future (rather than increasing cores) could play very nicely for them if they so choose to port classic x86 games over to iOS. (Think increased gaming console functions for Apple TV, etc)

 

[Abwx]

With the ASUS Mini-ITX at least we can say the price increase has a justification based on a difference in feature set compared to other AM1 boards.

It has absolutely no justification when you look at the competition offering, as said the Asrock AM1B ITX has all ocking features and it has 4 USB3, 4 SATA3 and at 30€ is 10% cheaper, in France, than the Asus board wich is a basic MB with ocking capabilities, but for the rest it s the same as the MSI and other rock bottom priced ITX MBs.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1B-ITX/

I think the dual core is still very valid, but AMD needs to increase clocks.

That s why i suggested this MB for whom is interested in those 2C, at about 2Ghz it should be good enough for basics uses.

 

[cbn]

It has absolutely no justification when you look at the competition offering, as said the Asrock AM1B ITX has all ocking features and it has 4 USB3, 4 SATA3 and at 30€ is 10% cheaper, in France, than the Asus board wich is a basic MB with ocking capabilities, but for the rest it s the same as the MSI and other rock bottom priced ITX MBs.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1B-ITX/

Well, in the United States, that motherboard costs more money too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157490 ($39.99 plus $5.39 shipping at Newegg)

That is a $11.39 premium over the MSI AM1 mini-ITX ($33.99 with free shipping) I listed in post #35

This compared to the ASUS Mini-ITX:

$46.99 plus $2.99 shipping at Newegg--> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...FUiGfgodPSQAtQ

$49.56 with free shipping at Amazon---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JB40498/...xtension-kb-20

$47.99 plus shipping (?? cost ??) at Tiger Direct ---> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...oLF79fJTDWZaCg

 

[cbn]

That s why i suggested this MB for whom is interested in those 2C, at about 2Ghz it should be good enough for basics uses.

Using the $31 with free shipping price for Sempron 2650 at Amazon--> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOMFFYM/...xtension-kb-20

and combining with the best price I could find for ASRock AM1B-ITX --> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157490 ($39.99 plus $5.39 shipping at Newegg)

The total cost would be $76.38. (which prices it beyond the territory of the 1037U boards I listed in post #35).

So that is a good deal more money than the MSI AM1 Mini-ITX and the Sempron 2650 which is $64.99.

Then there is no guarantee how much the Sempron 2650 processor will overclock by increasing base clock. Furthermore, I am concerned how much increasing base clock will affect PCIe, AHCI, etc.

Instead of this, higher stock clocks and unlocked multiplier on the dual core AM1 would be far better.

 

[Abwx]

Well, in the United States, that motherboard costs more money too:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157490 ($39.99 plus $5.39 shipping at Newegg)

That is a $11.39 premium over the MSI AM1 mini-ITX ($33.99 with free shipping) I listed in post #35

This compared to the ASUS Mini-ITX:

$46.99 plus $2.99 shipping at Newegg--> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...FUiGfgodPSQAtQ

$49.56 with free shipping at Amazon---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JB40498/...xtension-kb-20

$47.99 plus shipping (?? cost ??) at Tiger Direct ---> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...oLF79fJTDWZaCg

The logical conclusion is that there s US retailers that are dishonnests as proved by the european prices, they cash as much as possible on desirable features at the expense of both consumer and manufacturer, here it can be found at 28-29€ 20% VAT included but for sure there is also some unscrupulous retailers.

http://www.reichelt.com/Motherboard...GROUPID=6132&ARTICLE=143079&SHOW=1&OFFSET=16&

Then there is no guarantee how much the Sempron 2650 processor will overclock by increasing base clock. Furthermore, I am concerned how much increasing base clock will affect PCIe, AHCI, etc.

Instead of this, higher stock clocks and unlocked multiplier on the dual core AM1 would be far better.

So better to rely on an Athlon 5150 or preferably a 5350, benches show that even the 3850 is much better, clocks can be increased by 50MHz using the multiplier wich work when increased by 0.5 but seems that it is not that easy to increase its frequency.

http://en.gecid.com/cpu/AMD_Sempron_2650_APU_review_and_performance_testing/

 

[cbn]

So better to rely on an Athlon 5150 or preferably a 5350, benches show that even the 3850 is much better, clocks can be increased by 50MHz using the multiplier wich work when increased by 0.5 but seems that it is not that easy to increase its frequency.

http://en.gecid.com/cpu/AMD_Sempron_2650_APU_review_and_performance_testing/

Athlon 5150 ($49.99, free shipping from Amazon--> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOMFAPG/...xtension-kb-20) and Athlon 5350 ($59.99, free shipping from Amazon--> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOMFAQ0/?tag=extension-kb-20 ) are considerably more expensive than the $31 Sempron 2650. So those processors won't work as low cost replacements

And Sempron 3850 (while only $5 more than the 2650 at $36 free shipping on Amazon--> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IOMFFUG/...xtension-kb-20 ) is even slower than Sempron 2650 in Web benchmarks:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8067/...athlon-53505150-and-sempron-38502650-tested/6

So the answer to the Intel Celeron J1800 and Intel Celeron 1087U is not be found in the existing AM1 line-up. We need something new from AMD to boost value.

 

[cbn]

Speaking of the J1800, I just noticed it even beats Athlon 5150 in all the web benchmarks I posted.

 

[Abwx]

Speaking of the J1800, I just noticed it even beats Athlon 5150 in all the web benchmarks I posted.

That s cool if your perspective is 1-2 years at very most but if you want to keep the PC for 5 years i wouldnt go 2C, besides you are focusing on CPU and completely downplaying the GPU side of things, Kabini is definitly more balanced than BTrail, the only offer that seems much better was the A8 7600 but price is substancialy higher for both the APU and ITX MB and the 45W TDP was too much for what i projected, too bad that the 35W socketed embedded variants do not exist in the consumer market despite being a potentialy better sell than the regular 45W device.

 

[cbn]

That s cool if your perspective is 1-2 years at very most but if you want to keep the PC for 5 years i wouldnt go 2C

My major point, if you read post #46, is that quad core is not always the answer. (dual core Sempron posting better web benchmark scores than Sempron 3850).

.....And web browsing differences between J1800, Sempron 2650, Sempron 3850 matter quite a bit at these very low power and performance levels.

besides you are focusing on CPU and completely downplaying the GPU side of things, Kabini is definitly more balanced than BTrail

Having a better iGPU is a bonus, but what for? If we are talking about basic needs for web browsing, then a better iGPU is a bonus only if the other processor has an insufficient iGPU.

Now as far as gaming goes, I'm sure the extra iGPU on Sempron 2650 is better, but then it is so poor in CPU. If AMD is going to equip these chips with so much GPU (in a relative sense), they might as well boost CPU clocks to match that (especially considering the AM1 heatsink has a fan on it and plenty of thermal headroom to accommodate the change.)

 

[Abwx]

My major point, if you read post #46, is that quad core is not always the answer. (dual core Sempron posting better web benchmark scores than Sempron 3850).

.....And web browsing differences between J1800, Sempron 2650, Sempron 3850 matter quite a bit at these very low power and performance levels.

As said it wont last, in the mid term softs will be more multithreaded and those wich wont wont need stellar IPS otherwise they wil be Mthreaded sooner rather than later.

Having a better iGPU is a bonus, but what for? If we are talking about basic needs for web browsing, then a better iGPU is a bonus only if the other processor has an insufficient iGPU.

Now as far as gaming goes, I'm sure the extra iGPU on Sempron 2650 is better, but then it is so poor in CPU. If AMD is going to equip these chips with so much GPU (in a relative sense), they might as well boost CPU clocks to match that (especially considering the AM1 heatsink has a fan on it and plenty of thermal headroom to accommodate the change.)

2C are not worth it, neither the 2650 nor the J1800, on the Quad core offering the entry level is the 5150, anything slower or with less cores is not a good buy on the mid term , let alone on a 5 years usage perspective, 4C at correct frequency are the only way to have decent use of the GPU, at least on the AMD part, on the Intel side a faster CPU is about of no help to even play basic games, in that respect using a 2650, 3850 or whatever BT is just wasting money, i could understand for some restricted usages, particularly using Linux, but overall i wouldnt advise lower than a 5350, i tested extensively such a config and it works very well, with a SSD it is largely superior to a mobile SB 4c/8t that a friend asked me to test to see why it was so sluggish in comparison, well , the SSD was making all the difference.