it's official, i'm a liberal now

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: senseamp
[GOP]You may not be able to affort the healthcare for your family, but look on the bright side. That healthcare you can't afford is the best in the world [/GOP]

You mean most costly in the world. Our Quality USA healthcare is rated fourteenth worldwide. With childcare belonging to a country in the 3rd world.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: senseamp
[GOP]You may not be able to affort the healthcare for your family, but look on the bright side. That healthcare you can't afford is the best in the world [/GOP]

You mean most costly in the world. Our Quality USA healthcare is rated fourteenth worldwide. With childcare belonging to a country in the 3rd world.

You seriously think that our childcare is on the same level as a 3rd world country?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: WHAMPOM

Originally posted by: senseamp
[GOP]You may not be able to affort the healthcare for your family, but look on the bright side. That healthcare you can't afford is the best in the world [/GOP]

You mean most costly in the world. Our Quality USA healthcare is rated fourteenth worldwide. With childcare belonging to a country in the 3rd world.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What of the millions who cannot afford the best doctor - should they receive lesser treatment because they cannot afford it? Why should you receive better cancer treatment/preventative healthcare than an individual who can't afford it?

The whole concept of "best" doctors is somewhat exclusive...there is no feasible way that the government, or any entity for that matter, can ensure that EVERYONE has access to the very best doctors...there are exceptional doctors, there are good doctors, and yes, probably even mediocre to poor doctors.

Using your example, how exactly do you intend to assure that anyone suffering from cancer can access the knowledge and resources of the somewhat exclusive population of doctors able to treat such diseases...you can't.

There is no doubt that the medical insurance industry requires reform...no argument there...insurance should be affordable for all, although I dont necessarily subscribe to the notion that health insurance is an inalienable right.

But above all else, I prefer the flexibility of choice, even if it costs me a bit more for that luxury...socialized or government run health care is not a good idea, period...the government should set the standards and regulations that ensure equitable treatment and fair practices, but let the insurance companies and medical professionals handle the rest.

 

[Siddhartha]

For people who lived or had parents who lived during the Great Depression, government programs that help everybody, not just you, friends, family, and people who look like you make sense. Because of the economic situation during that time alot of people loss jobs, savings, and property not just losers and slackers. For the Great Depression generation, everyone having access to decent paying jobs, healthcare, education, and proper nutrition are ethical and moral issues.

It is not easy for people born in the last two generations, who did not experience a global economic colapse, to understand this. Why should they pay to help other people? What is in it for them? They are doing okay so there must be something wrong or lacking with people who are having trouble.

 

[bctbct]

The whole system is based on greed

Doctors charge too much for their services. They overbook appointments/surgeries. They make mistakes and give poor care because of it.

Insurance companies charge charge too much for premiums.

Medical facilities waste money on unnecessary construction.

I havent had a regular doctor in 15 years. I prefer to go to a walk in medical clinic. I go when I want, seldom wait less than 20 min., see the same doc most times and it costs half as much.

The doc offeres free samples and everytime he writes a script he asks me about my prescription coverage keeping in mind cost.

Now this is not a state of the art faciltity like the local hosp. with glass and fountains, just space in a strip mall.

This is evidence to me that you can get quality care, at an afforable cost. BTW I have excellent insurance, but I do believe in limiting their cost to keep my premiums lower.

That is another subject, people who waste insurance coverage on every little ache and pain.

 

[Starbuck1975]

For the Great Depression generation, everyone having access to decent paying jobs, healthcare, education, and proper nutrition are ethical and moral issues.

The generation that grew up during the Great Depression, and fought WW2, is largely gone...although if you look across that demographic, a socially liberal agenda was never their priority.

If anything, their kids, the Baby Boomers, are the ones who embraced the concept of social liberalism...and they never experiences the Great Depression.

Doctors charge too much for their services. They overbook appointments/surgeries. They make mistakes and give poor care because of it.

Which correlates to the cost of achieving their education...do you have any idea how many years it takes, and how much it costs, to become a doctor?

Medical facilities waste money on unnecessary construction.

Now this is not a state of the art faciltity like the local hosp. with glass and fountains, just space in a strip mall.

Most of the decorative elements you see in hospitals are from donor and charitable funds the hospital receives.

That is another subject, people who waste insurance coverage on every little ache and pain.

THIS is the root of the problem...prevention is alwys better their care.

 

[bctbct]

Starbuck

Donations do not fund construction at hospitals, patients do

So if a person goes to the emergency room sunday because they feel bad and throw up, prevention would eliminate this?

Many doctors are greedy, they hope to make enough to retire in 20 years. I realize that becoming a doctor is hard work and costs a lot of money. Many still manage to work four days a week and take 6 wks vacation.

Having done a lot of doctoring from a work injury I can tell you from my experiences that there are a few great docs, and a bunch of lousy docs.

This is probably one sector where you get what you pay for does not apply.

 

[theblackbox]

Sorry, i have been out of pocket as far as the web goes. Here is some more info.

Before I left I thoroughly researched changing groups within the 62 day gap, with coverage for pre exisiting conditions. It was my mistake not to further investigate the lack of changing from a group to individual plan that the gap does not cover the change in the same fashion.
I researched my cobra benefits, it would have cost me a little over 900$ a month to maintain cobra coverage for both of us.
I went to an independant agent to shop for the best offer, not just one insurance company, i also researched offerings from different companies directly.
I did not anticipate that we would be denied due to an existing precondition. Further, if I insured myself for 130$ a month, my wife for 500+ a month under the ship ( a ship is a group of peope that can not be normally insured so they form a group of sorts, usually with much higher premiums, typically uninsurable or high risk people), and we pay out of pocket for her insulin and pump supples, about 200$ a month, it would be a little less then cobra benefits.
We would have no problems paying these premiums but why should we, when someone else unemployed can get better benefits through the state or the government without paying such high fees.
It would be like going to a used car dealer and seeing a 1000$ car sitting on the lot, and after they check your credit and find out you have a credit rating well over 800 and make enough interest off what you have in the bank to live comfortably without touching the principle of your account, they charge you 10,000$ for the same car.
I'm sorry if you don't find this unfair.
I'm sure other people work lower paying jobs and feel they work harder then i do or my wife does, but what does that have to do with anything. Starting and running an animal hospital isn't exactly easy, and starting and maintaining a profitable small business providing jobs to a town or city and being able to sell it and walk off with a great amount of security for the next 2-10 years isn't easy either, if it were simple and not hard work, I am sure everyone would be doing it, and the failure rate of upstart small businesses wouldn't be so high.
But hey, what do i know. infohawk as lumped me into a group and assigned me a past, without even knowing much about me.
I've consistently voted (when i voted) for what seemed to be the best cand. regardless of party. I backed brown in 04 (sure he wasn't on gop ticket), and back in my earlier days Perot.

I also realize that the high cost of medicine is directly tied into the isurance preiums doctors pay for their practice, i am acutely aware of this. The coverage wwe had to put on my wife just for malpractice on pets is an indicator that its astronomical when it comes to people.

The reason i am becoming more liberal is that the party that supports national healthcare is more liberal. I can't say I am becoming a democrat because i don't label things so simply as republican/democrat as some seem to, since you could have liberal rep. and conservative democrats.
I however don't see the republicans pushing healthcare, unless it's the careless health of other countries through military conquest for hopeless causes.

Back to our planning. We had planned this for some time, we just didn't have the whole picture. All we were looking for was catastrophic coverage, we are fine with paying for doctor visits and prescription drugs, we didn't use our insurance much when i had it, the security of the coverage was what we were interested in so if something bad were to occur.
If my wife had not been diabetic, this would not have been a concern.
And i wil stress, we are more then willing to PAY a reasonable premium. We have no problem with that, but what we have been presented is less then reasonable. Money is not an issue, but if you ever become wealthy you realize that you maintain wealth by making smart decisions, and applying some sort of principle in saving and not spending over the top.
Maybe i don't sit and read the political news everyday and stay on top of every little thing, but life is to short and there is too much to do instead of just reading articles and formuating opinion about what the rest of the world should do, i can only answer for what I do and what I have put into the system. A lot of what I have put in to the system. Now i think it's fair to ask for some of the benefits that I have helped pay for and payed so much for through taxes on me, the clinic and such.
I don't have the idealistic live at home 18 year old go to college and preach that i know everything about life to everyone i can life, I live on the beach (in a house, thanks) after planning a multi-year vacation, and travel plan for relocation to colorado springs in 2009, after seling our practice, our house, and leaving what we had behind us. Hard work, planning, and time have made it possible to do this, and now i spend my time hiking, camping, kayaking, beachcombing(although the shells in sc are somewhat lacking) and preparing our thru hike next year, and our trip afterwards. I didn't just one day quit my job, this was coming for well over 5 years. We had a plan, we just didn't cover every base it seems and foresee the one inconvienance, the insurance companies and their lack of coverage for what they feel is a high risk, even in catastrophe insurance.

and vic:

"he OP doesn't sound very liberal to me. He sounds like a member of the privileged class who, upon voluntarily quitting jobs and cashing out a business to take an extended vacation, is upset that he can't fleece the public any further. Naturally, Dave & Circle Jerk, Inc. start dancing along with a Rich Republican when he starts blowing one of their tunes, even if it's just in his own selfish interests. "

do you think that i am priviledged because we worked hard to make a small business successful? That we took a small investment and made something of it, and on average provided 4-5 jobs for the community at the clinic, and charged fair fees and took in animals the owners couldn't afford to keep in order to save the animals life? The amount of money we lost when someone could only afford 40$ instead of 100$, or the people in the community that only had their social security income that we worked out plans with and reduced fees. If you think thats fleecing the public, i feel sorry for you. I don't come from money, and everything I have I worked for, so don't label me as something i am not.

I joined the army straight out of high school because i couldn't afford to go to college on my own, when my father died in the hospital (without insurance 10 years ago) it drained everything my family had, which wasn't much. I worked meaningless jobs until i found myself and what my future was. I have been succesful because i applied myself and worked hard.

So i don't know where you get off with that priveleged crap.

Some peope earn a living.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: theblackbox
and vic:

"he OP doesn't sound very liberal to me. He sounds like a member of the privileged class who, upon voluntarily quitting jobs and cashing out a business to take an extended vacation, is upset that he can't fleece the public any further. Naturally, Dave & Circle Jerk, Inc. start dancing along with a Rich Republican when he starts blowing one of their tunes, even if it's just in his own selfish interests. "

do you think that i am priviledged because we worked hard to make a small business successful? That we took a small investment and made something of it, and on average provided 4-5 jobs for the community at the clinic, and charged fair fees and took in animals the owners couldn't afford to keep in order to save the animals life? The amount of money we lost when someone could only afford 40$ instead of 100$, or the people in the community that only had their social security income that we worked out plans with and reduced fees. If you think thats fleecing the public, i feel sorry for you. I don't come from money, and everything I have I worked for, so don't label me as something i am not.

I joined the army straight out of high school because i couldn't afford to go to college on my own, when my father died in the hospital (without insurance 10 years ago) it drained everything my family had, which wasn't much. I worked meaningless jobs until i found myself and what my future was. I have been succesful because i applied myself and worked hard.

So i don't know where you get off with that priveleged crap.

Some peope earn a living.

Good for you. So do I. You're exactly the kind of person that the "liberals" hate the most. I used the word "privileged" on purpose, because that's exactly what the socialists will call you when you don't agree with them 100% (don't you know? according to the socialists, no one "earns" a living, our elite masters grant this privilege selectively and unfairly, and those who are so privileged owe a debt of their lives to the rest of society). And yet you will join the socialists when it convenient to you. Shame...

 

[theblackbox]

Just because some idealogy you may take from one group is good or fair, doesn't mean you take all their idealogy.
Even as a small business owner, the idea of nationalized health care isn't a bad idea. Small businesses pay a premium for group insurance since they can't table the number of employees corporations can. Even when you join a small business group that consolidates for a group, the cost of insurance is still high to insure or offer that option to your employees.
But just because national health care would benefit me (selfish), i would think it would in turn benefit other people less able ot afford health care. Odd how when you have a bunch of people trying to get something for themselves, when it happens it benefits others. Sometimes, selfish interests help a lot of people. The few people that were selfishly looking after their interests in the american colonies helped to found a country where now we can talk about this, have this, and live this. Their selfish interest created change. If people were interested in something, i doubt much change would happen, especially if they garnished nothing from it.
I still believe in the small business model, and i have no problems with private large companies, as they do provide jobs for peple, even though they can become corrupt. I don't think the government should get involved in every aspect and over regulate.
I believe in open borders, and giving everyone a fair shake, this country was founded on that principle, and it's worked for a long time, and we are still around, and that diversity is our strength.
I don't think i'd be a good socailist, but some ideas aren't all bad.

 

[daniel49]

Your lack of planning is not my emergency. The rational thing to have done was keep your job even if in a limited capacity to meet your medical needs.

The system is far from perfect, far to expensive, and insurance is the One industry I actually favor regulation in.
That being said neither do I want a country with a multitude of deadbeats expecting the Govt. to care for them from the cradle to the grave. Govt. is by definition inefficant, wasteful, slow, and and tends to produce little else besides excuses.

For those who can't work the elderly, the handicapped, the person who is just temporarily down on thier luck. We should and do provide services, that being said there is always room for improvement and new ideas in this area.

If you are able bodied and can work you should work. Helping to bear that burden.
If you are just lazy and want to leech off the system, I have no sympathy for you.

Another good point raised by someone up above in the thread was, don't overuse your insurance.
If you have a sniffle and your chests congested, do you really need to charge a $100.00 office visit to your plan to hear the doctor tell you to take a decongestant?
Common sense will play a part in keeping the costs down as well.

 

[senseamp]

It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

The issue is that there is very little selfless about wanting national health care. It's like if I claimed to be selfless while I demanded that you make my mortgage payments.

And please don't argue that 2 wrongs make a right. That's as much a fallacy as is the false dilemma of "liberals" and "conservatives."

Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

 

[BoomerD]

Myself, I'd like to see some kind of "fall-back" type of medical insurance. let companies keep offereing their employees group benefits, (and make it illegal for them to drop that coverage to take advantage of this) that covers those who have NO insurance options. Won't cover routine doctor's visits for things like a cold, flu, or other minor medical issues, no ELECTIVE plastic surgery, anything like that. Just major medical type of insurance. For most of my life, I was covered by my union's excellent insurance plan. Rated as one of the top 5 on the west coast, and in the top 10 in the country. Sure, we paid for it, and costs went up every year, (skyrocketing since 2001) but we had NO annual deductible, and a minimal co-pay per visit. I got hurt in 2003, and the docs won't let me return to my usual work, and there's nothing in my trade that I can do with my limitations. After 1 year, my insurance ran out with my union plan. To get coverage for my wife & I, (both over 50) with high annual deductibles, and 40% co-pays, we're looking at between $700 and $1000/month for insurance, depending on the carrier and a few minor options in the plan...THAT's fvcking outrageous! In 2000, a comparable plan would have run less than $100/month.
It's past time that we do something in this country to provide basic medical coverage for those who have no other coverage.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Many doctors are greedy, they hope to make enough to retire in 20 years. I realize that becoming a doctor is hard work and costs a lot of money. Many still manage to work four days a week and take 6 wks vacation.

This is where I have to disagree...my brother is currently in residency...the poor kid spent six grueling years going through school, and is up to his neck in student loans because med school ain't cheap...then there were nearly two years of high stress preparing for all the exams to get his various certifications...now, as a resident, he works six days, sometimes seven, days a week...12+ hour shifts, night shifts, etc. He is not living the glamorous doctor lifestyle.

To achieve the "doctor" lifestyle, he will spend nearly 10 years busting his ass and burning himself out...if, at the end of that road, there is a huge payoff, well...there are rewards for hard work in this life.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Many doctors are greedy, they hope to make enough to retire in 20 years. I realize that becoming a doctor is hard work and costs a lot of money. Many still manage to work four days a week and take 6 wks vacation.

This is where I have to disagree...my brother is currently in residency...the poor kid spent six grueling years going through school, and is up to his neck in student loans because med school ain't cheap...then there were nearly two years of high stress preparing for all the exams to get his various certifications...now, as a resident, he works six days, sometimes seven, days a week...12+ hour shifts, night shifts, etc. He is not living the glamorous doctor lifestyle.

To achieve the "doctor" lifestyle, he will spend nearly 10 years busting his ass and burning himself out...if, at the end of that road, there is a huge payoff, well...there are rewards for hard work in this life.

my comments about greed were more about them seeing so many patients in a day that they are half way out the door to see the next patient when you are trying to talk to them.

 

[Starbuck1975]

my comments about greed were more about them seeing so many patients in a day that they are half way out the door to see the next patient when you are trying to talk to them.

I think that is more a function of location and doctor shortages then one of greed.

 

[Paddington]

It sounds like you got exactly what you deserved.

Enjoy your multi-year work free vacation. I hope you find "all that the U.S. has to offer". But don't expect to get free healthcare.

 

[ranmaniac]

There's plenty of Americans who find work anyway they can, temping etc with no health,dental, vision insurance. I temp, and pay out-of-pocket for health insurance, it sucks, but that's the way things are unfortunately.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

The issue is that there is very little selfless about wanting national health care. It's like if I claimed to be selfless while I demanded that you make my mortgage payments.

And please don't argue that 2 wrongs make a right. That's as much a fallacy as is the false dilemma of "liberals" and "conservatives."

Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

It is perfectly legitimate to want national health care for selfish reasons. That is my point. Not that it's selfless. Conservatives expect liberals to be selfless, why they worship selfishness. I think everyone should vote their own self interest and not unilaterally surrender their position because the other side calls it selfish.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic
Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

Like the Republican solution has been so succesful :roll:

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic
Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

Like the Republican solution has been so succesful :roll:

The Democrat solutions will be better?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic
Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

Like the Republican solution has been so succesful :roll:

The Democrat solutions will be better?

Maybe, maybe not but will be different.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

The issue is that there is very little selfless about wanting national health care. It's like if I claimed to be selfless while I demanded that you make my mortgage payments.

And please don't argue that 2 wrongs make a right. That's as much a fallacy as is the false dilemma of "liberals" and "conservatives."

Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

It is perfectly legitimate to want national health care for selfish reasons. That is my point. Not that it's selfless. Conservatives expect liberals to be selfless, why they worship selfishness. I think everyone should vote their own self interest and not unilaterally surrender their position because the other side calls it selfish.

Socialists claim to be selfless, when in fact they're as selfish as the worst spoiled brat. That was my point.