It's a official now. Japan in a recession.

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ctedly-contracts-as-abe-weighs-tax-delay.html

They have basically created a trap by refusing to deal with the structural issues their economy is facing. Japan's massive government spending (relative to their GDP) and a negative population growth can't be solved by inflating their away currency and raising taxes. All they are doing is hurting the little guy/gal in Japan for little gain. Furthermore the confrontational pro-militarist government policies were pretty clear signs these guys were desperate to cover up the fact that they were to embark on a economic policy that was going to hurt the little guy. I guess they need and wanted the Japanese people to be distracted with their confrontations with China to so that they would ignore the damage they were doing to their currency and standard of living.

Japan unexpectedly sank into a recession last quarter as the world’s third-largest economy struggled to shake off the impact of an April sales-tax boost, raising the odds of a delay in a second bump in the levy.

Gross domestic product shrank an annualized 1.6 percent in the three months through September, a second straight drop -- matching the textbook definition of a recession. Unadjusted for price changes, the economy contracted an annualized 3 percent, the Cabinet Office said. Japanese stocks slumped.

“April’s sales tax completely destroyed Japan’s economy -- no part of Japan’s economy looks encouraging,” said Yoshiki Shinke, chief economist at Dai-ichi Life Research Institute, who had the weakest forecast in a Bloomberg News survey, with a 0.8% growth estimate for real GDP. “Today’s data will leave another traumatic memory for Japanese politicians about sales tax hikes.”

For Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, the report probably guarantees he will put off the tax increase scheduled for October 2015, a move that people familiar with the matter have said will trigger a snap election next month. Japan also tipped into a recession after a 1997 consumption-levy rise, leading to the fall of the government of the day.
Photographer: Tomohiro Ohsumi/Bloomberg

While exports and consumer spending returned to gains last quarter, they weren’t strong enough to offset the impact of a slump in the stocks of unsold goods -- a sign that companies were unwilling to boost production. Residential investment was another soft spot, while government spending had a positive impact on GDP.
Recession Blight

Nominal GDP, which is unadjusted for price changes, also shrank a second straight period, at least the fifth such recession in the past decade. The level, which is most important when considering tax revenue or corporate profits, is 7.9 percent below the peak reached in 1997, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

The April increase of the sales tax to 8 percent from 5 percent triggered in the second quarter the deepest contraction in more than five years. Etsuro Honda, an adviser to the prime minister, said last week that a 2015 value-added tax increase to 10 percent was out of the question if third-quarter growth were less than 3.8 percent.

“Japan is in recession -- was pushed into recession by the VAT hike,” Jesper Koll, head of Japan strategy at JPMorgan Chase & Co. in Tokyo, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. “Delay in the VAT hike is now a virtual certainty.”
Stocks Drop

The yen fell against the dollar after the data were released, briefly dropping below 117 per dollar for the first time since October 2007. The currency rose 0.5 percent to 115.70 as of 3:50 p.m. in Tokyo. The Topix index of shares fell 2.5 percent.

Abe is considering postponing the next tax increase until 2017, people familiar with the discussions said last week. While a general election isn’t due until 2016, he will call an early vote to get public backing for his move, people with knowledge of the talks said. Economy Minister Akira Amari told reporters today that the prime minister will make a decision tomorrow or later.

Today’s report comes two days before the Bank of Japan’s next policy meeting. Governor Haruhiko Kuroda last month led a divided board to expand what was already an unprecedentedly large monetary-stimulus program. Kuroda took the surprise decision as forecasts for inflation drifted lower, further away from his 2 percent target.
Living Costs

While the pace of consumer-price gains is running about 1 percent, that still amounts to a sea-change for households accustomed to modest deflation for about 15 years. The 3 percentage-point increase in the sales tax in April also pushed up the cost of living. With inflation outpacing wage growth, a further bump in the levy risked hurting consumption and undermining Abe’s support.

The median forecast for annualized real growth last quarter was 2.2 percent. The median estimate for nominal GDP was for a 0.4 percent advance.

Private inventories subtracted 0.6 percentage points from GDP in the quarter, indicating companies were unwilling to produce more amid economic weakness.

From the previous quarter, private consumption rose 0.4 percent in the July-September period, compared with a 5 percent drop in the second quarter, today’s report showed. Capital spending dropped 0.2 percent in the quarter, compared with a 4.8 percent decline in the previous three-month period.
Trade Impact

Net exports, or shipments less imports, added 0.1 percentage point to GDP, after a 1 percent gain in the previous quarter, today’s data showed.

The government approved a 5.5 trillion yen extra budget in December to help the economy weather April’s tax hike. Finance Minister Taro Aso has signaled readiness to boost stimulus and Abe said last week he would consider compiling an extra budget depending on the economy.

The government is considering measures that may amount to 3 trillion to 4 trillion yen to support the economy, according to a Yomiuri newspaper report on Oct. 31.

Abe’s ruling Liberal Democratic Party is considering steps to protect against the impact of a weaker yen and higher energy prices as part of a campaign platform for a possible election, the Nikkei newspaper reported last week, without citing anyone.
Further Stimulus

A group of LDP lawmakers who want to delay the next bump in the sales levy estimate the government could have as much as 4.6 trillion yen available for economic stimulus if it doesn’t increase the sales tax next year.

Postponing the planned increase by about 18 months would add about 0.5 percent to growth, the group said in a discussion paper obtained by Bloomberg News. The lawmakers, led by lower house member Kozo Yamamoto, estimate that this expansion would have a bigger impact on the amount of tax raised than increasing the levy and risking another economic contraction.

In 1997, then-Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto oversaw a 2 percentage point boost in the consumption levy. The move cost him his job as Japan sank into a recession with consumption swooning against a backdrop of weakening demand abroad due to the Asian financial crisis.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
53,864
136
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ctedly-contracts-as-abe-weighs-tax-delay.html

They have basically created a trap by refusing to deal with the structural issues their economy is facing. Japan's massive government spending (relative to their GDP) and a negative population growth can't be solved by inflating their away currency and raising taxes. All they are doing is hurting the little guy/gal in Japan for little gain. Furthermore the confrontational pro-militarist government policies were pretty clear signs these guys were desperate to cover up the fact that they were to embark on a economic policy that was going to hurt the little guy. I guess they need and wanted the Japanese people to be distracted with their confrontations with China to so that they would ignore the damage they were doing to their currency and standard of living.

Well we both agree that the tax hike was a mistake. They should be running larger deficits. And inflation is a feature, not a bug. Deflation is devastating to the entire economy, the little guy included.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,313
2,767
126
you mean, a reception ?
Empfang-Deutschmeister-hotel-1.jpg


it's gotta be an awfully big reception to fit all of japan in it
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
No, definitely a feature. Japan and other developed countries are all trying to create inflation, and correctly so. We should all be hoping for more inflation.

Then you should be happy beef, chicken, pork,, have skyrocketed in price.

Inflation is fine when it does not outpace wages.

Wages and inflation have to grow at the same percentage.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Well we both agree that the tax hike was a mistake. They should be running larger deficits. And inflation is a feature, not a bug. Deflation is devastating to the entire economy, the little guy included.

I guess there really is no upper limit to the amount of deficits you'd call for, to infinity and beyond. No matter how wrong you have shown to be for going on 3 decades now, I guess "more deficit spending" is going to be your always and forever answer until Japan and everyone else completely implodes like the Ottoman Empire. Tell me, who exactly do you think should get fucked over when you repudiate the debt since that seems to be your aim?

japan-govt-spend.jpg


debt-to-gdp-countries.png
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
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I guess there really is no upper limit to the amount of deficits you'd call for, to infinity and beyond. No matter how wrong you have shown to be for going on 3 decades now, I guess "more deficit spending" is going to be your always and forever answer until Japan and everyone else completely implodes like the Ottoman Empire. Tell me, who exactly do you think should get fucked over when you repudiate the debt since that seems to be your aim?

You of course know that's not my aim, and as has been discussed in the past my call for deficits is completely dependent on the economic situation.

Japan needs to run ever larger deficits until inflation expectations increase. End of story.

What's odd is that you're trying to say that calls for deficit spending have been proven wrong. I would have thought that the economic outcomes over the past 5 years would have shown you that they were right so utterly conclusively that you wouldn't dare try to make that argument again.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
You of course know that's not my aim, and as has been discussed in the past my call for deficits is completely dependent on the economic situation.

Japan needs to run ever larger deficits until inflation expectations increase. End of story.

What's odd is that you're trying to say that calls for deficit spending have been proven wrong. I would have thought that the economic outcomes over the past 5 years would have shown you that they were right so utterly conclusively that you wouldn't dare try to make that argument again.

Feel free to point out even a single example where you've EVER called for anything but "stimulus" deficit spending, unless it was in the context of spending it a different way (welfare vs. military spending). No, it's always the "check is in the mail" promise that once the recession/slowdown/deflation/whatever ends, then you'll finally back off the stimulus - in other words never.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
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Feel free to point out even a single example where you've EVER called for anything but "stimulus" deficit spending, unless it was in the context of spending it a different way (welfare vs. military spending). No, it's always the "check is in the mail" promise that once the recession/slowdown/deflation/whatever ends, then you'll finally back off the stimulus - in other words never.

I certainly haven't in the last five years or so, as econ 101 tells us that we should be pursuing stimulus. As I've said before, we should continue widespread deficit spending until inflation happens.

Stop trying to straw man my position.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
I certainly haven't in the last five years or so, as econ 101 tells us that we should be pursuing stimulus.

Economics 101:

We should be building factories and infrastructure. The government should be working to ensure the middle class as a stable income for future generations.

We should not be printing money out of thin air to enrich a certain demographic.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I certainly haven't in the last five years or so, as econ 101 tells us that we should be pursuing stimulus. As I've said before, we should continue widespread deficit spending until inflation happens.

Stop trying to straw man my position.

It's not a strawman, it's reality. Just like "collective action problems" your entire method of argument relies on creating a reality bubble where you rationalize away any approach other than your own. In the Japan example especially it makes you look not only ridiculous but completely out of touch with reality. Japan has basically done exactly what you advocated for more or less 30 years and is worse off now than ever, with only a 250% debt-GDP ratio to show for it. You've been wrong for decades and are now urging them to continue on with the same leech bloodletting approach which has failed. No amount of stimulus spending is going to save Japan, period. The sooner you recognize and acknowledge that the better.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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Economics 101:

We should be building factories and infrastructure.

We should not be printing money out of thin air.

Japan has been building "infrastructure" for decades with nothing to show for it but a 3rd lost decade. Are you determined to join Eskimospy in the "let's see how wrong I can be about Japan" club?
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Japan has been building "infrastructure" for decades with nothing to show for it but a 3rd lost decade. Are you determined to join Eskimospy in the "let's see how wrong I can be about Japan" club?


Japan has also been outsourcing a lot of its manufacturing to China.

That sucking sound of our jobs going to china is not only affecting us, it is affecting the rest of the world.

The rest of the world is going into a recession because china has our jobs. The end result will be to continue to print money out of thin air.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
53,864
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It's not a strawman, it's reality. Just like "collective action problems" your entire method of argument relies on creating a reality bubble where you rationalize away any approach other than your own.

I like how you're now putting things that are irrefutable facts about the world in scare quotes.

In the Japan example especially it makes you look not only ridiculous but completely out of touch with reality. Japan has basically done exactly what you advocated for more or less 30 years and is worse off now than ever, with only a 250% debt-GDP ratio to show for it.

This is incorrect. Japan has never done what has been advocated, which is to create expectations of relatively high future inflation. Saying they have done what I would advocate is a straw man. Explicitly.

You've been wrong for decades and are now urging them to continue on with the same leech bloodletting approach which has failed. No amount of stimulus spending is going to save Japan, period. The sooner you recognize and acknowledge that the better.

This is also incorrect, and at odds with textbook macroeconomics. Japan needs to continue to commit to much higher deficits and much more money printing with the promise that they will not relent until they have sustained, higher than average inflation. What Japan has incorrectly done for years (and did yet again earlier this year) is at the first sign of improvement to relent and start pushing austerity again.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Japan has also been outsourcing a lot of its manufacturing to China.

So what? There's absolutely no economic value-add in having your widget produced by someone in Shenzen vs. San Francisco. Whether you like it or not if you either don't have the ability or willingness to be the worker with the best overall value proposition then you won't get the job - the only difference is now your competition is not just people who you went to high school with but Jose in Guatamala as well. For a while labor coasted by on the productive increases allowed by capital investment into technology and such (e.g. computers, etc.) and that's reaching the point of diminishing returns.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
This is also incorrect, and at odds with textbook macroeconomics. Japan needs to continue to commit to much higher deficits and much more money printing with the promise that they will not relent until they have sustained, higher than average inflation. What Japan has incorrectly done for years (and did yet again earlier this year) is at the first sign of improvement to relent and start pushing austerity again.

Why don't you just skip the middleman and advocate for a debt jubilee? If your entire plan basically comes down to fucking over creditors and inflate away the value of their holdings why do it slowly and indirectly?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
53,864
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Why don't you just skip the middleman and advocate for a debt jubilee? If your entire plan basically comes down to fucking over creditors and inflate away the value of their holdings why do it slowly and indirectly?

Because you're trying to create a modest increase in inflation expectations (to maybe 3-4%), not cause massive disruptions to the economy?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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So what? There's absolutely no economic value-add in having your widget produced by someone in Shenzen vs. San Francisco. Whether you like it or not if you either don't have the ability or willingness to be the worker with the best overall value proposition then you won't get the job - the only difference is now your competition is not just people who you went to high school with but Jose in Guatamala as well. For a while labor coasted by on the productive increases allowed by capital investment into technology and such (e.g. computers, etc.) and that's reaching the point of diminishing returns.

That is the fault of our government and its Free-Trade insanity. American economic power and independence and standard of living has more or less imploded in the last two decades. Why conservatives would celebrate and revel in America's failure defies my understanding.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
So what? There's absolutely no economic value-add in having your widget produced by someone in Shenzen vs. San Francisco.

Wow, just wow. I thought you were smarter than that.

That factory is not going to pay property and school taxes?

Those workers are not going to buy gas to go to work? Tires, oil, parts for their cars? Those workers are not going to buy homes?

Who is more likely to buy a home, a middle class worker or someone on welfare?
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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I like how you're now putting things that are irrefutable facts about the world in scare quotes.



This is incorrect. Japan has never done what has been advocated, which is to create expectations of relatively high future inflation. Saying they have done what I would advocate is a straw man. Explicitly.



This is also incorrect, and at odds with textbook macroeconomics. Japan needs to continue to commit to much higher deficits and much more money printing with the promise that they will not relent until they have sustained, higher than average inflation. What Japan has incorrectly done for years (and did yet again earlier this year) is at the first sign of improvement to relent and start pushing austerity again.

Japan is a scary scenario for me given they have driven their debt\GPD ratio up so high. What would you do? Print more money or cut taxes to increase deficit spending?

Also I wonder if what we are witnessing is partially a result of their shrinking population and refusal to open their borders to immigration.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
53,864
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Japan is a scary scenario for me given they have driven their debt\GPD ratio up so high. What would you do? Print more money or cut taxes to increase deficit spending?

I would do both. An actual goal of this is to make people think that Japan will eventually monetize some part of its debt through inflation. Inflation really is the goal. (modestly higher than normal inflation)

Also I wonder if what we are witnessing is partially a result of their shrinking population and refusal to open their borders to immigration.

I think it is. Japan has seen some pretty strange cultural and demographic changes in the past few decades.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Inflation really is the goal. (modestly higher than normal inflation)

How is that going to help an aging population on a fixed income?

How is higher than normal inflation going to help the average worker whos wages have stagnated?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,299
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How is that going to help an aging population on a fixed income?

How is higher than normal inflation going to help the average worker whos wages have stagnated?

It will help everyone if you can pull the country out of the liquidity trap.