Italy succumbed to russian influence as well? They have a Trump of their own now, Giuseppe Conte.

[Thebobo]

The downfall of european social democracies inches closer and closer and I am willing to bet Russia has a large hand in all of this. Just like the brexit vote, Turkey and of course our own election. World is becoming a scary place for democracy. Support journalist, get a subscription even online. Support organizations like the ACLU and Amnesty international.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/...vernment-conte-mattarella-five-star-lega.html

ROME — The populist parties that won Italy’s elections two months ago by demonizing the political establishment, the European Union and illegal migrants in often vulgar terms were granted the go-ahead on Wednesday to form a government, crystallizing some of the biggest fears of Europe’s leaders, who were already bracing for turbulence.

The rapid ascent of populists in Italy — the birthplace of Fascism, a founding member of the European Union, and the bloc’s fourth-largest economy — shattered the nation’s decades-old party system.

It also gave fresh energy to the nationalist impulses tugging at the Continent and moved the greatest threat to the European Union’s cohesion from newer member states on the periphery, such as Hungary and Poland, to its very core.

 

[pmv]

The Russians may well have stuck their oar in, but I'm a bit weary of the use of 'Russia' as an all-purpose excuse for everything that doesn't go according to plan in the West. Especially when bearing in mind the US's very, very long history of meddling ruthlessly in the internal affairs of other countries (very much including Italy, where the US intervened in politics heavily and consistently for whole cold-war era).

The EU is in good part the author of its own misfortunes.

 

[K1052]

If you don't like the current Italian government just wait about an hour.

 

[DrunkenSano]

When you have a giant influx of refugees that do not wish to adapt their social views and lifestyles to your countries, you will definitely see a rise in nationalism. It's not "Trump", it's human nature. Most people in the world are very resistant to change, especially change that was forced on them.

 

[realibrad]

You want to see some hardcore nationalism, look to Europe.

 

[UglyCasanova]

They’ve had a Trump if their own long before we did (Berlasconi sp?).

 

[Indus]

There's a big difference inbetween us and what happened in Italy.

No one got a majority in the Italian Parliament. And a parliament is designed with a "vote of no confidence". If enough people don't like the direction the country is going.. they are much easier to kick out than our system where we're stuck with someone for a fixed amount of time.

 

[Thebobo]

You all might be right but we'll see.

 

[Commodus]

They’ve had a Trump if their own long before we did (Berlasconi sp?).

Berlusconi -- and yeah, there are at least a few uncomfortable parallels beyond the gross corruption, like attempts to undermine the free press.

 

[pmv]

If you don't like the current Italian government just wait about an hour.

There's a big difference inbetween us and what happened in Italy.

No one got a majority in the Italian Parliament. And a parliament is designed with a "vote of no confidence". If enough people don't like the direction the country is going.. they are much easier to kick out than our system where we're stuck with someone for a fixed amount of time.

Yeah, that's quite true - this government might not last long enough to actually do anything very much. It's a pretty odd coalition for starters. One half wants to cut taxes, the other half wants more public spending...so they seem to have compromised by agreeing to do both!

 

[UNCjigga]

I'd hate to credit Russia for anything which the Italians have already demonstrated themselves to be quite capable of all on their own.

Also, I give The Union/Five Star marriage about a month...and I'm being very generous.

 

[Incorruptible]

So because the election doesn't go your way then Russia is responsible? OP You're a moron. Italy was allowing in lots of refugees who don't work, cause crime and want sharia law, of course the people voted against the leftist BS.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

So because the election doesn't go your way then Russia is responsible? OP You're a moron. Italy was allowing in lots of refugees who don't work, cause crime and want sharia law, of course the people voted against the leftist BS.

Sock puppet want a cracker?

 

[Greenman]

The downfall of european social democracies inches closer and closer and I am willing to bet Russia has a large hand in all of this. Just like the brexit vote, Turkey and of course our own election. World is becoming a scary place for democracy. Support journalist, get a subscription even online. Support organizations like the ACLU and Amnesty international.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/...vernment-conte-mattarella-five-star-lega.html

The Russians got brexit passed as well? I had no idea.
I wonder if I could get them to shut down the high speed rail for rich people that we're building here in California?

 

[trenchfoot]

The ghost of Mussolini lurks in the shadows.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I'd hate to credit Russia for anything which the Italians have already demonstrated themselves to be quite capable of all on their own.

Also, I give The Union/Five Star marriage about a month...and I'm being very generous.

Uh, you do realize you're literally talking like Turmp, right? Because Americans have shown themselves to be quite capable of voting in Republicans that fuck America over all on their own too. The sad fact is, a lot of countries are on thin margin for voting in shitty politicians, and it often doesn't take that much to tip things in the wrong direction.

The Russians got brexit passed as well? I had no idea.
I wonder if I could get them to shut down the high speed rail for rich people that we're building here in California?

If I'm not mistaken, yes, there actually was evidence that Russia meddled in that similarly to how they did it in the US (via social media campaigns and deliberately stirring up division).

 

[Exterous]

I think this has less to do with Russia and more of a rise in Nationalism in general. It doesn't help that southern Italy has not shared the same economic growth that the north has seen, with valid criticisms on both sides of that argument. Still 5 star has a shaky record of leadership behind them so its possible this will pass if they continue to prove to be ineffective

https://www.wsj.com/articles/italia...t-has-spotty-record-governing-rome-1520933400

 

[Thebobo]

So because the election doesn't go your way then Russia is responsible? OP You're a moron. Italy was allowing in lots of refugees who don't work, cause crime and want sharia law, of course the people voted against the leftist BS.

 

[Thebobo]

I think this has less to do with Russia and more of a rise in Nationalism in general.

And imo that's in part due to the russians. Just a hunch but in 10 20 years we might find out how much they have spread their tentacles, now where is my Aluminum foil.

 

[Indus]

That was friday. On monday, NEW ELECTIONS.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...seppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

See the advantage of a parliament system over our own clusterfuck?

 

[UNCjigga]

That was friday. On monday, NEW ELECTIONS.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...seppe-conte-fails-to-form-populist-government

See the advantage of a parliament system over our own clusterfuck?

Basically what everyone predicted. I did say I was being way too generous giving this government a month...

 

[Gryz]

And imo that's in part due to the russians. Just a hunch but in 10 20 years we might find out how much they have spread their tentacles, now where is my Aluminum foil.

You are completely fucking nuts. And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

 

[Thebobo]

You are completely fucking nuts. And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

You are completely fucking nuts. And you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

 

[pmv]

I believe the Russians have _attempted_ to meddle in European politics. But, they are not all-powerful bogeyman and I doubt their meddling even comes anywhere close to the US's meddling in Europe during the cold-war and beyond. It seems a cop-out to blame all adverse developments in Western politics on the all-powerful Russians. They are 'Upper Volta with missiles', as someone once said (or, now, with missiles and fossil fuels, that will eventually run dry). Their meddling would have zero effect if the West wasn't in a crisis entirely of it's own making.

What I do find curious is the level of sympathy for Putin from various groups and individuals in the West. The people who constantly pop up on the web and on phone-ins. Often here they seem to be UKIP types, but sometimes they come across as being on the left.

A little bit of it I think is a (not unreasonable) distrust of cold-war sabre-rattling and cynicism after the lies we were told over Iraq.

Up to a point I agree with that skepticism about just how serious a threat Russia is. There are plenty who are constantly declaring the enemy-de-jour to be the new Hitler (Nasser, Saddam, Milosovic, Ahmadinajad, Assad...). Anyone someone in the West wants to bomb for any reason, suddenly becomes the next Nazi-Germany-level danger, no matter how minor a threat they might be. Nasser got compared to Hilter in speeches in the commons just before Suez, and recently there was Hillary 'bomber' Benn ludicrously invoking the Spanish civil war and the International Brigades to justify throwing more bombs around in Syria.

But I also think a part of the outright fandom that seems to crop up in relation to Putin is not due to paid Russian bots, it's down to a scary tendency of people in a crisis to admire any 'strong' male leader. It's almost homoerotic, I reckon. And that is, after all, one of the major roots of the fascist mindset.

One can distrust warmongering without having any illusions about the kind of man Putin is.

We seem to be a a scary era generally, just as in the 30s there seems to be a desire for the strong manly leader to save us. It's disturbing to me.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

If you don't like the current Italian government just wait about an hour.

The Italians love this stuff. They have a history of embracing authoritarians and their corruption. This isn't a new "Trump", this is a continuation of business as usual.