...it just hit me

[mPartialOb]

It just hit me while I was reading the testimony from scores of Vietnam Vets who witnessed war crimes.

The Kerry critics who attack him for 'stabbing soldiers in the back' don't really think he is lying. There's no way they could be so blind as to think that US troops did not commit atrocities. There is no way they could ignore the mountains of evidence.

They think Kerry betrayed his fellow soldiers by TALKING. And the soldiers most betrayed, are the ones who committed the atrocities. You don't go blabbing to Congress just because some Gooks got roughed up. What happened in Vietnam STAYS in Vietnam, no matter how grossly inhuman...no matter how "un-American".

To them, Kerry is the tattletale who went to the principal.

And because he violated the 'code', they impugn his patriotism, belittle his bravery, question his wounds, and impugn his character.

Kerry didn't betray the troops...he betrayed the WAR PIGS by forcing them to own up to the nightmare they created...and the depravity that was a product of that nightmare.

What his attackers don't get, is that only after much soul-searching Kerry made the conscious decision that he HAD to stop the madness...that he HAD to get his buddies out...that he could NOT ignore their pleas for him to "do something". Kerry felt that he was compelled to use the leverage of the war crimes that were being reported to him to help get the soldiers home. There was no other choice.

What Kerry's critics either distort or fail to comprehend is that he was testifying AGAINST the government, FOR the soldeir. Kerry cited the atrocities and amoral behavior in Vetnam as an indictment of the suits in Washington's war gone bad. He was saying "look what you have done !"..."look how you have allowed these brave young men to degenerate and become corrupted by YOUR war !".

He took no pride in doing so and put his future career at great risk. In 1971 he suffered the barbs and stings of those who called him "un-American" and preferred to ignore the soldiers desperate pleas in favor of nationalism....and he is suffering them again in 2004.

But it is HE who has to sleep at night with the consequences of the choice he made. He alone carries that burden. And he sleeps quite well, thank you.

He has seen all this many times before....and he will not be impeded by that which he has long ago conquered.

 

[Orsorum]

Interesting thoughts. Welcome!

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: mPartialOb
It just hit me while I was reading the testimony from scores of Vietnam Vets who witnessed war crimes.

The Kerry critics who attack him for 'stabbing soldiers in the back' don't really think he is lying. There's no way they could be so blind as to think that US troops did not commit atrocities. There is no way they could ignore the mountains of evidence.

They think Kerry betrayed his fellow soldiers by TALKING. And the soldiers most betrayed, are the ones who committed the atrocities. You don't go blabbing to Congress just because some Gooks got roughed up. What happened in Vietnam STAYS in Vietnam, no matter how grossly inhuman...no matter how "un-American".

To them, Kerry is the tattletale who went to the principal.

And because he violated the 'code', they impugn his patriotism, belittle his bravery, question his wounds, and impugn his character.

Kerry didn't betray the troops...he betrayed the WAR PIGS by forcing them to own up to the nightmare they created...and the depravity that was a product of that nightmare.

What his attackers don't get, is that only after much soul-searching Kerry made the conscious decision that he HAD to stop the madness...that he HAD to get his buddies out...that he could NOT ignore their pleas for him to "do something". Kerry felt that he was compelled to use the leverage of the war crimes that were being reported to him to help get the soldiers home. There was no other choice.

What Kerry's critics either distort or fail to comprehend is that he was testifying AGAINST the government, FOR the soldeir. Kerry cited the atrocities and amoral behavior in Vetnam as an indictment of the suits in Washington's war gone bad. He was saying "look what you have done !"..."look how you have allowed these brave young men to degenerate and become corrupted by YOUR war !".

He took no pride in doing so and put his future career at great risk. In 1971 he suffered the barbs and stings of those who called him "un-American" and preferred to ignore the soldiers desperate pleas in favor of nationalism....and he is suffering them again in 2004.

But it is HE who has to sleep at night with the consequences of the choice he made. He alone carries that burden. And he sleeps quite well, thank you.

He has seen all this many times before....and he will not be impeded by that which he has long ago conquered.

as a former soldier, let my say..your a more than a little off in left field there. i just have to ask, do you really believe all that?

 

[myusername]

So are you saying that you unapologetically support atrocities?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: mPartialOb
It just hit me while I was reading the testimony from scores of Vietnam Vets who witnessed war crimes.

The Kerry critics who attack him for 'stabbing soldiers in the back' don't really think he is lying. There's no way they could be so blind as to think that US troops did not commit atrocities. There is no way they could ignore the mountains of evidence.

They think Kerry betrayed his fellow soldiers by TALKING. And the soldiers most betrayed, are the ones who committed the atrocities. You don't go blabbing to Congress just because some Gooks got roughed up. What happened in Vietnam STAYS in Vietnam, no matter how grossly inhuman...no matter how "un-American".

To them, Kerry is the tattletale who went to the principal.

And because he violated the 'code', they impugn his patriotism, belittle his bravery, question his wounds, and impugn his character.

Kerry didn't betray the troops...he betrayed the WAR PIGS by forcing them to own up to the nightmare they created...and the depravity that was a product of that nightmare.

What his attackers don't get, is that only after much soul-searching Kerry made the conscious decision that he HAD to stop the madness...that he HAD to get his buddies out...that he could NOT ignore their pleas for him to "do something". Kerry felt that he was compelled to use the leverage of the war crimes that were being reported to him to help get the soldiers home. There was no other choice.

What Kerry's critics either distort or fail to comprehend is that he was testifying AGAINST the government, FOR the soldeir. Kerry cited the atrocities and amoral behavior in Vetnam as an indictment of the suits in Washington's war gone bad. He was saying "look what you have done !"..."look how you have allowed these brave young men to degenerate and become corrupted by YOUR war !".

He took no pride in doing so and put his future career at great risk. In 1971 he suffered the barbs and stings of those who called him "un-American" and preferred to ignore the soldiers desperate pleas in favor of nationalism....and he is suffering them again in 2004.

But it is HE who has to sleep at night with the consequences of the choice he made. He alone carries that burden. And he sleeps quite well, thank you.

He has seen all this many times before....and he will not be impeded by that which he has long ago conquered.

Good post. :beer:

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: mPartialOb
It just hit me while I was reading the testimony from scores of Vietnam Vets who witnessed war crimes.

The Kerry critics who attack him for 'stabbing soldiers in the back' don't really think he is lying. There's no way they could be so blind as to think that US troops did not commit atrocities. There is no way they could ignore the mountains of evidence.

They think Kerry betrayed his fellow soldiers by TALKING. And the soldiers most betrayed, are the ones who committed the atrocities. You don't go blabbing to Congress just because some Gooks got roughed up. What happened in Vietnam STAYS in Vietnam, no matter how grossly inhuman...no matter how "un-American".

To them, Kerry is the tattletale who went to the principal.

And because he violated the 'code', they impugn his patriotism, belittle his bravery, question his wounds, and impugn his character.

Kerry didn't betray the troops...he betrayed the WAR PIGS by forcing them to own up to the nightmare they created...and the depravity that was a product of that nightmare.

What his attackers don't get, is that only after much soul-searching Kerry made the conscious decision that he HAD to stop the madness...that he HAD to get his buddies out...that he could NOT ignore their pleas for him to "do something". Kerry felt that he was compelled to use the leverage of the war crimes that were being reported to him to help get the soldiers home. There was no other choice.

What Kerry's critics either distort or fail to comprehend is that he was testifying AGAINST the government, FOR the soldeir. Kerry cited the atrocities and amoral behavior in Vetnam as an indictment of the suits in Washington's war gone bad. He was saying "look what you have done !"..."look how you have allowed these brave young men to degenerate and become corrupted by YOUR war !".

He took no pride in doing so and put his future career at great risk. In 1971 he suffered the barbs and stings of those who called him "un-American" and preferred to ignore the soldiers desperate pleas in favor of nationalism....and he is suffering them again in 2004.

But it is HE who has to sleep at night with the consequences of the choice he made. He alone carries that burden. And he sleeps quite well, thank you.

He has seen all this many times before....and he will not be impeded by that which he has long ago conquered.

Those with very little conscience and morals sleep very well at night.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Dari

Those with very little conscience and morals sleep very well at night.

good point. but it does not matter, to a dem it is better to smear and slander the soldiers who bled and died in vietnam than the man who is capitalizing on it for his political gain, then deride bush for a few seconds of 911 video when 22 families felt "inspired" by bush's ad.

proof of what you said i guess.

 

[IGBT]

Only God knows how many more Americans and Vietnamese died because of Kerry?s ego-trip activism. Every time you visit that black memorial with nearly 70,000 names in Washington, D.C., remember that some of them died because John Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy in order to advance his own celebrity, wealth and power.



Whenever Kerry now prates that the first duty of a Commander-in-Chief is to protect the lives of our soldiers, this hypocrite should be spit on by everyone present in remembrance of all the American soldiers Kerry helped our enemies to kill.






Text

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: IGBT
Only God knows how many more Americans and Vietnamese died because of Kerry?s ego-trip activism. Every time you visit that black memorial with nearly 70,000 names in Washington, D.C., remember that some of them died because John Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy in order to advance his own celebrity, wealth and power.



Whenever Kerry now prates that the first duty of a Commander-in-Chief is to protect the lives of our soldiers, this hypocrite should be spit on by everyone present in remembrance of all the American soldiers Kerry helped our enemies to kill.






Text

Bullsh!t, if anything Kerry and the Anti War Protestors prevented more deaths by forcing the morally corrupt Nixon Administration to bring an end to that hienous war.

 

[Gravity]

Kerry is similar to Clinton in that he spoke out about our soldiers during war. Kerry is slightly more honorable then BC due to the fact that he actually served in uniform. BC slandered our boys/country from the UK.

Other similarities? Anyone waiting for Kerry's girlfriend to return from S. America?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Today's version of . . . "Vietnam: The Just War" and how it was lost by traitors at home.

Only God knows how many more Americans and Vietnamese died because of Kerry?s ego-trip activism. Every time you visit that black memorial with nearly 70,000 names in Washington, D.C., remember that some of them died because John Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy in order to advance his own celebrity, wealth and power.

Let me start by saying you actually belittle . . . not honor . . . the men and women that died in Vietnam by not having the decency to cite the ACTUAL number of names on the Memorial. But I'm sure you really believe you honor all of them and the extra 11, 765 were due to Kerry.:disgust: I hear Bush was so honored to serve his country that he exited the National Guard at the earliest opportunity . . . to go to business school. Can you imagine how many lives (American and Vietnamese) could have been saved if Robert McNamara had 1/10 the moral constitution of John Kerry?

 

[IGBT]

All President Bush has to do is to run against Kerry?s record as a senator for the last 20 years.

Simply publish Kerry?s voting record and campaign contributions, together with his quotations on his political positions ? and voters will see for themselves just what a fraud the Massachusetts? liberal really is.

To top it off, Kerry is now getting financial help from New Jersey?s sleaziest politician? Senator Bob Torricelli, another liberal loser. Torricelli was forced to step down in his bid for reelection two years ago because he was so far behind in the polls, that the state?s liberal Democrat party replaced the ?Torch? with a retired, 78-year-old NJ senator, Frank Lautenberg.








Text

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Gravity
Kerry is similar to Clinton in that he spoke out about our soldiers during war.

You don't think those atrocities happened in Nam? Most of the soldiers there were draftees who didn't want to be there but had no real choice. A lot of them spent their time when not on duty getting high or drunk. When it came to the Vietnamese civilians those American soldiers had as little regard for them as the South Vietnamese Army did. Guys I know who were over there wouldn't have thought twice about unloading his gun into a hutch if they thought that it might prevent them from getting killed themselves.

Instances like My Lai were not isolated cases. Though it might not have been the norm you can bet that incidents like that happen a lot more than the Government at the time admitted too. You see these were not the same kind of Soldiers who are in the Armed Forces today. Like I said earlier, for the most part they were draftees and not the sons of America's Elite like the Dub. They weren't looking for glory or to protect the American Way, they were just trying to survive and if that meant some non combatants were killed either by accident or maliciously, well that was the price of having conscripts fight in a war they had no reason to actually support or even understand.

Unlike those who were drafted I lucked out as my 18th birthday fell on the first year they stopped the draft. In fact I was real lucky as I had a single digit lottery number and I surely would have been shipped to Nam. I could only imagine how horrible it would have been to be stuck over in that sh!thole, fighting for a government who was more the enemy than the guys in the Black Pajamas employing women and children to throw grenades in gathering places of off duty GIs

Kerry is slightly more honorable then BC due to the fact that he actually served in uniform.

Yet he is vastly more honorable than the Dub

Anyone waiting for Kerry's girlfriend to return from S. America?

That's like saying "Is anyone waiting for your mother to come up for air?"

 

[chess9]

There were atrocities in 'Nam, no doubt. Kerry probably overstated his case in '72 and '73 for the EXTENT of them. We just don't know and few people want to find out.

What you say may have a grain of truth in it, but really the whole 'Nam experience is much deeper and complex. 'Nam was the first war where our soldiers came home to face ridicule and shame. A lot of guys are angry about it, and for different reasons. Some guys are pissed they went and we didn't win. Some are pissed they went and no one appreciated it. Some are pissed they went.

You can't boil down that experience into a few words or paragraphs. I didn't intend to above, and I'm sure you didn't either.

War Pigs?

-Robert

 

[Jhhnn]

Those with very little conscience and morals sleep very well at night.

Yeh, according to all accounts, Dubya sleeps like a baby.

Vietnam was a very, very bitter lesson for America, one not yet fully understood or appreciated, as is witnessed by the usual knee-jerk condemnations from the "My country right or wrong" crowd. Few who weren't of military service age at the time have the vaguest understanding of the deep quandry posed by our involvement. On the one hand, we wanted to support freedom and democracy, while on the other hand we'd have to engage in contrary conduct to achieve that theoretical end. Basically, we could get out or demean ourselves by killing more Vietnamese and American GI's than we allegedly saved.

Kerry didn't have to speak out against the war, not at all. He could have simply pursued the life of wealth and privilege to which he was born, turned his back on the whole thing. His position at the time wasn't really very popular, particularly with those in authority, but he chose to pursue it as a matter of conscience. Bleating the line that his actions contributed to the deaths of our troops is an extreme misrepresentation of what really happened- lives were lost because Johnson, Nixon et al sent our troops to Vietnam, and no other.

Here's the text of Kerry's remarks to Congress in 1971-

http://pages.xtn.net/~wingman/docs/kerryst.htm

And here's what he said about the use of military force in general, not too long ago-


"You have to ask the right questions before you send young people to fight and die," he said. "You have to know what your endgame is.

"You have to know that you've exhausted the remedies available to you before you go. You have to build up the consent of the people in the country. You have to try to build alliances in the world and do it right."

From here-

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2004/02/17/news/front/7968990.htm

Speaking of Endgame, how are we doing in our latest adventure of conquest, Iraq? Maybe we're approaching such a thing in Afghanistan- No? Maybe we had a plan that attempted to deal with all the contingencies? Uhh, no, not exactly, but they're free, free to do whatever we want...

 

[thevigmaster]

Originally posted by: mPartialOb
It just hit me while I was reading the testimony from scores of Vietnam Vets who witnessed war crimes.

The Kerry critics who attack him for 'stabbing soldiers in the back' don't really think he is lying. There's no way they could be so blind as to think that US troops did not commit atrocities. There is no way they could ignore the mountains of evidence.

They think Kerry betrayed his fellow soldiers by TALKING. And the soldiers most betrayed, are the ones who committed the atrocities. You don't go blabbing to Congress just because some Gooks got roughed up. What happened in Vietnam STAYS in Vietnam, no matter how grossly inhuman...no matter how "un-American".

To them, Kerry is the tattletale who went to the principal.

And because he violated the 'code', they impugn his patriotism, belittle his bravery, question his wounds, and impugn his character.

Kerry didn't betray the troops...he betrayed the WAR PIGS by forcing them to own up to the nightmare they created...and the depravity that was a product of that nightmare.

What his attackers don't get, is that only after much soul-searching Kerry made the conscious decision that he HAD to stop the madness...that he HAD to get his buddies out...that he could NOT ignore their pleas for him to "do something". Kerry felt that he was compelled to use the leverage of the war crimes that were being reported to him to help get the soldiers home. There was no other choice.

What Kerry's critics either distort or fail to comprehend is that he was testifying AGAINST the government, FOR the soldeir. Kerry cited the atrocities and amoral behavior in Vetnam as an indictment of the suits in Washington's war gone bad. He was saying "look what you have done !"..."look how you have allowed these brave young men to degenerate and become corrupted by YOUR war !".

He took no pride in doing so and put his future career at great risk. In 1971 he suffered the barbs and stings of those who called him "un-American" and preferred to ignore the soldiers desperate pleas in favor of nationalism....and he is suffering them again in 2004.

But it is HE who has to sleep at night with the consequences of the choice he made. He alone carries that burden. And he sleeps quite well, thank you.

He has seen all this many times before....and he will not be impeded by that which he has long ago conquered.

i think this is an insightful and far reaching analysis for the current war in iraq....

 

[CaptnKirk]

Some guys are pissed they went and we didn't win. Some are pissed they went and no one appreciated it. Some are pissed they went.

I'm not - I'm glad I went, it gave me a valuable experience to a part of my life that I otherwise would not have been exposed to.
I'm glad I survived and returned - there is a lot to be learned by living day to day and sometimes hour to hour when it's unpredictable.
I sorrow for those who didn't make it, those who's lives ended alone in a jungle on the opposite side of the world from their comfort.

From Eisenhower - to Kennedy - to Johnson - to Nixon, passing the baton of engagement as the cause and effect changed with
each successive administration in an attempt to perpetuate a corrupt government in a foriegn land by military force.
It was a civil war thay had been continuing since the French Colonialism days - Michelin Rubber Plantations, Huge Tea Plantations.
The control of the single largest rice producing area in the world, the Mekong Delta - whoever controls the stomach controls the population.

Unfortunately we had turned our political backs on these people before, and failed to follow through with those precious commitments.

Anyone who has been into that region of South East Asia also knows that Japan had pretty much invaded and occupied Viet Nam,
both the North and the South - and westward into Siam (Thailand) and was bombing and straffing that area of China weekly or daily.
The beach at Cam Rahn Bay has several of the Japanese concrete bunkers from 1938 to 1940 strewn up and down the coastline.

 

[chess9]

Capt:

Oh, I agree with that analysis 110%

The Vietnamese hate the Japanese for sure and with good reason. Some people think dropping two A bombs on the Japanese was too good for them. (I'm not one of them, though.)

As I said, I didn't intend to roll the experiences of an entire generation into a few pithy phrases. Maybe I shouldn't have gone as far as I did. I'm sorry if I may have offended you.

I didn't go to 'Nam, but I served and am glad I did. Like you, it gives me a greater appreciation for the freedoms many take for granted. All the men and women who served are heroes in my book. America must have people willing to serve their country, but we MUST have politicians who are very careful about using our boys to fight for every hare-brained cause they dream up.

-Robert

 

[nutxo]

Im beginning to think we have "seminar posters" , kind of like seminar callers, hitting these boards.

 

[Nietzscheusw]

Brainwashed US americans still proud of having served...german nazis were also proud to have served Hitler.
You killed millions of innocent human beings!
You are a people of serial killers!
Every one of you who served in Vietnam is as worthless as Hannibal Lecter.
At least his murderous life could be considered as a work of art.
You were just little obedient employees turned serial killers.
Because you did not have the guts to become independant serial killers?
US mass-media owned by corporations that also have stakes in the military industry can be thanked by your little minds which refuse to face themselves as the scums of the Earth. Mass-media say you served. Generals say you served. Corrupt politicians say you served. You repeat. Obedient forever. In murders as in opinions.
The US empire would collapse if you were not brainwashed. It could not have started the largest war of the just begun 21st century.
U.S.A. - United Serial killers of America

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
U.S.A. - United Serial killers of America

That would be U.S.K.A there Nitzo

CkG

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw

Brainwashed US

Hey frog , explain to us all the great things France accomplished in Indochina, Suez and Algeria. Begin.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
Brainwashed US americans still proud of having served...german nazis were also proud to have served Hitler.
You killed millions of innocent human beings!
You are a people of serial killers!
Every one of you who served in Vietnam is as worthless as Hannibal Lecter.
At least his murderous life could be considered as a work of art.
You were just little obedient employees turned serial killers.
Because you did not have the guts to become independant serial killers?
US mass-media owned by corporations that also have stakes in the military industry can be thanked by your little minds which refuse to face themselves as the scums of the Earth. Mass-media say you served. Generals say you served. Corrupt politicians say you served. You repeat. Obedient forever. In murders as in opinions.
The US empire would collapse if you were not brainwashed. It could not have started the largest war of the just begun 21st century.
U.S.A. - United Serial killers of America

\

Hey tard boy, enable your profile so we can make fun of whatever shithole you crawled out of.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: Nietzscheusw
Brainwashed US americans still proud of having served...german nazis were also proud to have served Hitler.
You killed millions of innocent human beings!
You are a people of serial killers!
Every one of you who served in Vietnam is as worthless as Hannibal Lecter.
At least his murderous life could be considered as a work of art.
You were just little obedient employees turned serial killers.
Because you did not have the guts to become independant serial killers?
US mass-media owned by corporations that also have stakes in the military industry can be thanked by your little minds which refuse to face themselves as the scums of the Earth. Mass-media say you served. Generals say you served. Corrupt politicians say you served. You repeat. Obedient forever. In murders as in opinions.
The US empire would collapse if you were not brainwashed. It could not have started the largest war of the just begun 21st century.
U.S.A. - United Serial killers of America

Hey tard boy, enable your profile so we can make fun of whatever shithole you crawled out of.

France.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Dari

Those with very little conscience and morals sleep very well at night.

good point. but it does not matter, to a dem it is better to smear and slander the soldiers who bled and died in vietnam than the man who is capitalizing on it for his political gain, then deride bush for a few seconds of 911 video when 22 families felt "inspired" by bush's ad.

proof of what you said i guess.

Better to stay at home in the National Guard while your betters die in the real army.