It is possible that Islam has a better understanding of God than Christianity

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Patently false. I never made that claim, and I defy you to show where I did.

I would show you AGAIN, but you will simply claim the universe does not exist as your way out of it again:

Show me that the universe actually did begin before you expect me to explain the beginning you don't even know to exist
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32994478&postcount=599

...or claim magic is preventing me from seeing it again:

Cerpin Taxt said:
How can you logically exclude the possibilty that you are being prevented from seeing it by a magical interferer?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32978287&postcount=387


Which is it this time? Or are you going to come up with the "universe popped into existance 5 seconds ago and all your memories of prior to then are made up" line again. That one was pretty classic. You obviously are learning a lot from young Earthers.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
126
I would show you AGAIN
More blatant dishonesty. You never cited the claim you attribute to me in the first place. You can't repeat something you've never accomplished.

...but you will simply claim the universe does not exist as your way out of it again:
Typical evasiveness. The question of whether the universe had a beginning or not was totally separate from the issue of the faith basis of your earlier claim. Your introduction of this irrelevant topic is a red herring.

Furthermore, I did not "claim the universe does not exist," I merely challenged you to demonstrate that the universe has a beginning -- a challenge which still remains unmet.

This is still another claim you have falsely attributed to me. You are a LIAR.


...or claim magic is preventing me from seeing it again:
In what language is a question a claim? It certainly isn't in English.

That is, of course, aside from the fact that this is also a claim for which I demanded a citation that you could never supply.

And THAT is, of course, aside from the fact that it is totally irrelevant to your inability to cite the earlier claim you falsely attributed to me.

Which is it this time? Or are you going to come up with the "universe popped into existance 5 seconds ago and all your memories of prior to then are made up" line again. That one was pretty classic. You obviously are learning a lot from young Earthers.
I never claim the "universe popped into existence 5 seconds ago and all your memories prior to then are made up." I merely asked how you could exclude it as a logical possibility, and you've never answered that question. This is yet another claim you have falsely attributed to me, and it is yet another red herring.
 
Last edited:

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
God has always punished the people of a nation for the actions of its leader. Sucks, but that is how it is. Makes you understand just how important your leaders are.

First of all, no he doesn't. I have read the bible cover to cover and there are many instances of Gods smite falling upon people who aren't leaders but lets assume that is correct. Would you call that a "just and merciful" entity that uses his power to punish the innocent children for the actions of a leader that they had no part in choosing? Of course your leaders are important but what understanding does that give to a people whose leader is chosen by birthright?

What would you think about making our own justice system more "God like"?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
First of all, no he doesn't. I have read the bible cover to cover and there are many instances of Gods smite falling upon people who aren't leaders but lets assume that is correct.

I did not claim God ONLY punished people whose leaders lead them astray.


Would you call that a "just and merciful" entity that uses his power to punish the innocent children for the actions of a leader that they had no part in choosing? Of course your leaders are important but what understanding does that give to a people whose leader is chosen by birthright?

Yes.
I do not understand your second question.


What would you think about making our own justice system more "God like"?

You mean follow the Torah? That only applies to Jews.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I promise not to repsond to any more of Cerpin's trolling, it is pulling the topic far off from its purpose. Back to the original topic:

Islam believes in a final judgement end of days as well, so it is not just Christianity (which has a slightly altered version of Judaism's end of ends, so Judaism has it to - Olam HaBa, the world to come). In Islam's version, all Jews are killed off, Jesus returns and proclaims that Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet. The last Imam returns (depending on which sect you are in), and the entire world is placed under an Islam Caliphate.

So having an end times scenario is not unique to Christianity (of the big three) and therefor is not a way in which Christianity understands God less. :)
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
126
You claim this is not possible in English. You are wrong.
It isn't. A claim may be implicit in a rhetorical question, but the question and the claim are not logically equivalent.

How's about you simply answer the question you were originally asked?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I did not claim God ONLY punished people whose leaders lead them astray.

Lead them astray? You act as if the people had a choice in their leader, they did not. I would wager that even speaking out against him would have resulted in torture and/or death.



So if tomorrow you commit some bad crime you think it is a perfectly reasonable punishment for the justice system to give your child the death penelty for your crimes? Really?

I do not understand your second question.

The people did not choose their leader. They could not have chosen their leader if they wanted to. They had absolutely no part in him being their leader or his actions. Knowing that you still think it is ok to kill not only the innocent but innocent children to punish someone for something that those innocents had absolutely no control over.

No offense but that is truly sick and evil.

You mean follow the Torah? That only applies to Jews.


No, I mean punishing innocent people who have absolutely no control over the person who did commit the crimes nor the ability to prevent that person to commit the crimes instead of the actual criminal. Do you think that should be an acceptable form of justice today?
 
Last edited:

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Lead them astray? You act as if the people had a choice in their leader, they did not. I would wager that even speaking out against him would have resulted in torture and/or death.

People of a nation tend to emulate their leaders. We even see it in the US. For a long time, our leaders spent more than they made, but individuals were more sensible. Now, individuals are like their government and we have the mess we are currently in.


So if tomorrow you commit some bad crime you think it is a perfectly reasonable punishment for the justice system to give your child the death penelty for your crimes? Really?

Obviously, many people today think it is fine to execute an unborn child for the crime of rape of that child's father, so don't think it is some odd view.

That said, give specific examples so I know what you are talking about.

A people are punished as a group for the actions of a group. If Afghanistan, as a hypothetical example only, were to harbor a man who planned some attacks against the US which killed thousands of US citizens, the people of Afghanistan would be punished for the actions of their government. Purely hypothetical, of course, but I am sure you can see such a thing happening.


The people did not choose their leader. They could not have chosen their leader if they wanted to. They had absolutely no part in him being their leader or his actions. Knowing that you still think it is ok to kill not only the innocent but innocent children to punish someone for something that those innocents had absolutely no control over.

No offense but that is truly sick and evil.

Not sick or evil at all. The people were punished as a whole for the crimes of their nation. This is a common and acceptable thing even today. I point to my hypothetical example, above.

No, I mean punishing innocent people who have absolutely no control over the person who did commit the crimes nor the ability to prevent that person to commit the crimes instead of the actual criminal. Do you think that should be an acceptable form of justice today?

It already is. Even the UN agrees that a people can be punished for the actions of their rulers. Other than the hypothetical example I already listed, I can give another purely hypothetical example.

Lets say Iran were to be developing nuclear weapons. Obviously they would never try to do this, but if they did, sanctions could be placed on the nation which would deprive the people of many goods and services until the leaders of the nation comply. Like I said, this is purely hypothetical, but it might happen sometime.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
2,617
5
81
Well now on the macro level that maybe true, but how about the exception at the quantum level where chaos reigns?

...oh no worries. In 50 years or so when the religious scholars understand quantum physics they will rewrite their religious views to conform to the new information. It's happened before, it will happen again.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
2,617
5
81
Sure I can, it is rather easy. I have personally dropped an item from a height and watched it fall to the Earth. I can say that gravity exists. I can repeat this a posteriori event over and over again.

I think you do not understand the term you are using.

Your experiment qualifies as not being faith-based? What about the Matrix?

I think you "think" the pencil fell to the Earth. Therefore that observation is faith-based. Stop worshiping gravity, you God-less heathen.
 

reallyscrued

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2004
2,617
5
81
I see irony in this statement.. but I am having a hard time understanding why.

If you just go calling everything faith-based and give a 'what-if' reason to back it up (ie: there is no empirical evidence God exists, but what if we, with our 3 pound brain, cannot begin to comprehend the universe!?!?!?!!1111), then Atheism would indeed be 'faith-based'.


It is not faith-based.