"It all begins with hatred."

[yllus]

It all begins with hatred

There is an excellent editorial piece in the National Post today written by Irwin Cotler, (Member of Parliament for Mount Royal and Professor of Law (on leave) at McGill University) that contained two very lucid and realistic sections: One on the cause of the war, and one on the only possible solution.

Cause:

If we want to prevent further tragedies in the Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah war, we have to go behind the headlines and find the war's real root causes.

The trigger for the present hostilities on both Israel's southern border with Hamas and its northern border with Hezbollah was not only the kidnapping of three solders (and the killing of others), but deliberate and unprovoked attacks across internationally recognized borders since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005.

Even before this summer, attacks against Israel were common. For example, in the aftermath of Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, a Hezbollah group masquerading as UN personnel kidnapped three Israelis; in 2002, a Hezbollah group crossed the international boundary, infiltrated a kibbutz, fired on a school bus, and killed six persons. Since Israel withdrew from Gaza a year ago, over 1,000 rockets have rained down on Israeli towns such as Sderot. Overall, Israel has suffered over 1,100 civilian deaths from terror since 2000.

Meanwhile, UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which called for the disarming of all foreign militias on Lebanese territory (namely Hezbollah) in 2004, was never implemented. If this international undertaking had been enforced, there would be no war, and there would have been no Israeli or Lebanese civilian casualties. That is the unclouded truth.

But the true root causes of this war lie even deeper. In their covenants and declarations, Hamas and Hezbollah have called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews, wherever they may be. Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah states that "there's no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel."

This genocidal anti-Semitism, this culture of hatred -- this is where it all begins. In the words of U.S. Middle East expert Fouad Ajami following the 2002 terrorist massacre of Israeli civilians in Netanya sitting down for their Passover meal: "The suicide bomber of the Passover massacre did not descend from the sky; he walked straight out of the culture of incitement let loose on the land, a menace hovering over Israel, a great Palestinian and Arab refusal to let that country be, to cede it a place among the nations, he partook of the culture all around him -- the glee that greets those brutal deeds of terror, the cult that rises around the martyrs and their families."

Iran not only joins in these genocidal calls, but has become the leader in the campaign to have Israel "wiped off the map". Iran is not just a bystander to the conflict, but a principal actor and choreographer -- involved in the training, supplying, financing, harbouring and instigation of Hezbollah.

Herein lies another proximate root cause: Iran Supreme National Security Council Secretary, Ali Lanjari, met with Hezbollah leaders in Damascus on July 12 -- the very day that Hezbollah launched its attacks -- and the very day that Western nations threatened Iran with economic sanctions if Iran refused to curtail its nuclear program. It is all the more tragic that innocents are dying in Lebanon and Israel because of a proxy war apparently instigated and planned by Iran for its own cynical geopolitical games.

I can see the above being a subject of debate by those who denounce the true cause of the war being the presence of a Jewish nation in the Middle East. A solution based on this cause is impossible - Israel is a fait accomplit and, outside of its considerable ability to defend itself, has its existence guaranteed by the the United Nations. It's time that groups in the region recognized that and sought to quell violence outside of driving the Jews into the sea.

Solution:
So - let's talk solutions. Please take a look at the following eight points and list your commendations/criticisms of any/each:

Recognizing the war's root causes is important, not only to appreciate the basis for the conflict, but the framework for its resolution. That resolution should be organized around the following initiatives and undertakings:

1. A comprehensive and enduring ceasefire and framework for the cessation of hostilities must be put in place.

2. The central principle of UN Security Council Resolution 242 -- the recognition of all states, including Israel, to live within secure and recognized boundaries -- must be expressly reaffirmed. It is the continuing assault on this seminal UN Resolution and cornerstone of Canadian foreign policy that plagues the region.

3. That same UN Security Council Resolution 242 -- and others that followed -- also affirm the political independence and territorial integrity of Lebanon. This requires the implementation by the Lebanese government, with international assistance, of UN Security Council Resolution 1559. Hezbollah is a threat not only to the safety and security of Israel, but to a free and sovereign Lebanon. The status of a Hezbollah acting as a terrorist state within a state must end.

4. A robust international protection and stabilization force will be required with the necessary composition, capacity, leadership and rules of engagement to enforce a ceasefire, and to assist the Lebanese government to extend its authority throughout Lebanon.

5. The international protection and stabilization force should also have a primary responsibility for the interdiction of weapons shipments to Hezbollah from both Iran and Syria.

6. The UN should also establish a supervisory force to locate and clear out Hezbollah's arms caches, bunkers and tunnels, many embedded in civilian areas.

7. The Hezbollah Al-Manar television station -- and other media that propagate a culture of hatred -- must be closed down.

8. A massive humanitarian effort for the reconstruction of Lebanon and the affected areas of Israel will be required, in which Canada can play an important contributory role.

The death of any innocent -- Israeli, Lebanese, Palestinian -- is a tragedy. It is urgent to act now for a just resolution and the prevention of further tragedies.

Points four and five, to me, are absolutely critical to the permanent end of violence emanating from Lebanon. Point seven kind of makes me blink, but realistically - you cannot allow a station making calls to murder people to continue.

So - what do you think?

 

[K1052]

Interesting, though I sincerely doubt the UN has the requisite will and cohesiveness to implement many (if any) of your points.

In my estimation the current situation will be allowed to limp on bloodily while everyone else continues to tend to their own interests.

 

[The Green Bean]

The only solution is to demilitarize the middle east for 50 years.

 

[blackangst1]

You cannot erase a man's spiritual hatred for another man by taking away his gun.

/thread

 

[5150Joker]

The solution is to relocate the entire mideast population to Mars. Planet earth will finally know peace.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
You cannot erase a man's spiritual hatred for another man by taking away his gun.

/thread

Spiritual hatred? You'll excuse me if I consider thinking adults to be able to rise above such mysticisms.

Before trying to close the thread, explain the demilitarization of the Provisional Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: blackangst1
You cannot erase a man's spiritual hatred for another man by taking away his gun.

/thread

Spiritual hatred? You'll excuse me if I consider thinking adults to be able to rise above such mysticisms.
Before trying to close the thread, explain the demilitarization of the Provisional Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland.

Im not going to attempt to explain anything...but your comment about thinking adults is a little naive considering what part of the world were talking about. Everything about their culture, government, and way of life is stepped in religion. To think otheriwse is folly. You are trying to sort this out with a "Western" head...one that has grown up in a country where everyone is equal and free. It just isnt that way in the middle east.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: blackangst1
You cannot erase a man's spiritual hatred for another man by taking away his gun.

/thread

Spiritual hatred? You'll excuse me if I consider thinking adults to be able to rise above such mysticisms.
Before trying to close the thread, explain the demilitarization of the Provisional Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland.

Im not going to attempt to explain anything...but your comment about thinking adults is a little naive considering what part of the world were talking about. Everything about their culture, government, and way of life is stepped in religion. To think otheriwse is folly. You are trying to sort this out with a "Western" head...one that has grown up in a country where everyone is equal and free. It just isnt that way in the middle east.

Thanks, but you're making assumptions about my "Western head" that are quite untrue. You are making the classic excuses that continue to mire the Middle East in problems.

There is no culture, government or way of life that required violence and hatred. Only scapegoating by a number of self-important clerics and 'royal' families whom find it convenient to focus the minds of their countrymen on outsiders as the problem, when they themselves are it.

The scenario plays out into eternity - charismatic leaders rally the poor/ignorant by centering their rage into a useful tool, which has the favourable byproduct of granting them a position of power. Hitler and the Jews. McCarthy and the Communists. Hugo Chavez and the U.S. Iran's Ayatollahs and the West. As the Communist Party of Russia found out, the balancing act of power upon fear and hate never lasts forever. They'll wake up someday.

In the meantime, we can work to curb the worst excesses of such violence. Disarming Hezbollah would be a wonderful start.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
The only solution is to demilitarize the middle east for 50 years.

Oo

A solution we can agree on, at least in theory.

Yet, it'll never come to pass. To disarm a country would mean forcing it. Force equates to war when they resist all other forceful options.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: yllus
Thanks, but you're making assumptions about my "Western head" that are quite untrue. You are making the classic excuses that continue to mire the Middle East in problems.

There is no culture, government or way of life that required violence and hatred. Only scapegoating by a number of self-important clerics and 'royal' families whom find it convenient to focus the minds of their countrymen on outsiders as the problem, when they themselves are it.

The scenario plays out into eternity - charismatic leaders rally the poor/ignorant by centering their rage into a useful tool, which has the favourable byproduct of granting them a position of power. Hitler and the Jews. McCarthy and the Communists. Hugo Chavez and the U.S. Iran's Ayatollahs and the West. As the Communist Party of Russia found out, the balancing act of power upon fear and hate never lasts forever. They'll wake up someday.

In the meantime, we can work to curb the worst excesses of such violence. Disarming Hezbollah would be a wonderful start.

Disarming Hezbollah? Who should be doing that? US have been trying to ?disarm? terrorists in Iraq for how many years now and look how much US has accomplished. If history teaches us anything, we should have learn that changes have to come from within. If Lebanese government were strong enough, they would have been the best agent to disarm Hezbollah. But Israel has pretty much taken Lebanese government out of commission, and at the same time strengthen the support for Hezbollah. It is now pretty much impossible for Lebanese government to do anything in the foreseeable future. If someone else try to disarm Hezbollah, they will have to fight Hezbollah in Lebanon, create lot of damage in Lebanon, and very possibly end up strengthening Hezbollah even more, just like Israelis have done. Remember Hezbollah can cause terror even with fertilizer or knifes. The organization can function as a terrorist organization as long as there is an endless supply of poor, uneducated Arabs who hate Israel or the West. If you go and destroy Lebanese infrastructure and economy, you will only be creating more soldiers for Hezbollah.

So I disagree with your opinion. The most important thing right now is not disarming Hezbollah, it is to stop the attack on Lebanon and help them recover their economy. Hezbollah is gonna be there, and they will do their thing. But as Lebanon gets stronger and people get wealthier, less and less people are going to listen to Hezbollah. Eventually, they will become just like one of those hate group in the US, they can talk crap all they want and people just gonna treat them like nut job.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
The only solution is to demilitarize the middle east for 50 years.

Oo

A solution we can agree on, at least in theory.

Yet, it'll never come to pass. To disarm a country would mean forcing it. Force equates to war when they resist all other forceful options.

trying to imagine the size of the box that would hold all the weapons in the Mideast:shocked:
Would it be maybe 10 feet high and cover the state of Kansas in volume???(wild guess)

They have found enough weapons caches in Iraq alone the last 3 years, I am suprised that the country didn't sink from the sheer weight of them

 

[Lemon law]

Absolute hogwash----what drives this crisis is Israels refusal to address the right to return. That and initial arab anti-sematism---what Canada mentions is only a later point in history---and by no stretch a root cause or an explanation.----but what does drive this is a deepening hate that can only be defused by Israel addressing the right to return---and its Israel military that allows both denial and collective punishment that is now the heart of the problem----and all this present crisis does is starkley reveal the human tradgedy of collective punishment-----because its now clear that Israel must greatly expand collective punishment to maintain its balance of terror.---as the other side will also escalate this as the rockets range gets longer.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
You cannot erase a man's spiritual hatred for another man by taking away his gun.

/thread

It's quite the opposite. Spiritual Hatred never caused a war, ever. It's just a lame, blind excuse some journalists use when reporting from distant countries instead of doing their job and understanding the real reasons behind armed conflicts. There are rational interests every time a war break out, no matter who's fighting them, no matter where it is fought. Always.

A ton of books have been debunking this "ancient hatred" sillyness, and I highly recommend "The Graves are not yet full" by Bill Berkeley, analyzing 6 African wars where the ancient hatred paradigma was used by the media to explain the causes that originated them, while in fact a little bit of research would have provided pefectly rational explanations.

 

[Czar]

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