Israel's worthless trip to America

[Dari]

America does not sell arms to Hamas

America does not support Hamas in any way

America has no influence on the people Hamas is buying their weapons from

The Bush Administration is at the i love you end of its rule

I have no idea what this "deal" is about but it looks like the Israelis feel they need to be seen doing something to bring this conflict to an end. So they come to Washington D.C. and sign something that won't change anything on the ground. All it implies is that they want to get out of Gaza as ASAP. What a pity considering it looks like Hamas was bucking.

link

US and Israel sign deal on Gaza

The US and Israel have signed a deal to halt the smuggling of arms into Gaza, in what Israel's foreign minister said was an important step towards peace.

The move followed a day of high-level talks in Washington and Egypt aimed at ending Israel's war with Hamas in Gaza.

Preventing arms smuggling from Egypt by Hamas is a key Israeli demand.

The BBC's Christian Fraser, who has managed to enter the Gaza Strip, says much damage can be seen and conditions for Palestinian families are tough.

Our correspondent, who finally got into Rafah from Egypt for the first time on Friday, says that while there have been targeted Israeli strikes in the town, there is much collateral damage as well, with a housing block and a playground among the sites affected.

Israel has been bombing heavily along the border area, with the aim of destroying tunnels running beneath the border between Gaza and Egypt.

Conditions for Palestinian families seeking refuge in a UN-run school in Rafah are very difficult, our correspondent says. Food and electricity supplies are limited and there is no running water.

'Vital component'

Israeli military officials said 40 overnight air strikes on Gaza targeted smuggling tunnels, rocket launching points, weapons stores and a militants' training camp.

The bodies of 23 people were later recovered in the Tel al-Hawa district of Gaza City, medics said.

Militants also continue to fire rockets into Israel. About 10 were launched on Friday but caused no injuries, the Israeli army said.

Speaking at the signing of the agreement with Israel in Washington, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she hoped it would ensure Gaza could "never again be used as a launch pad" for attacks on Israel.

The supply of arms to Hamas and other groups in Gaza was a "direct cause of the current hostilities", Ms Rice said.

"It is therefore incumbent upon us in the international community to prevent the rearmament of Hamas so that a ceasefire will be durable and fully respected," she said, adding that she was also concerned to end the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni described the memorandum of understanding as "a vital component for the cessation of hostilities".

'Final act'

Meanwhile, talks have continued in Cairo between Israeli and Egyptian officials aimed at reaching a ceasefire agreement.

Hamas was also invited back to Cairo on Friday for more talks, an official told the al-Jazeera network.


After meeting Palestinian Authority leaders in the West Bank, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called on Israel to end the fighting.

"I would like to see an immediate ceasefire," he said, adding that a deal between Israel and Hamas to stop the conflict might be possible within the next few days.

Israel has said any ceasefire must be "durable and sustainable".

Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said they would not accept Israeli conditions for a ceasefire.

Earlier, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told the BBC that Israel wanted a prompt end to the violence.

"The diplomacy now is in high gear. Hopefully we're entering the final act. We want this to be over as soon as possible," he said.

Meanwhile, a teenager reportedly died during anti-Israeli protests in the West Bank on Friday.

He was killed as violence broke out between demonstrators and Israeli soldiers in the West Bank town of Hebron, reports said. Clashes were also reported at the Qalandya checkpoint.

The Israeli army had earlier closed all access to the West Bank for the next two days following a call by Hamas for all Palestinians to observe what it called a day of wrath after Friday prayers.

The Palestinian Authority issued a similar call to action to followers of Fatah, a rival Palestinian faction to Hamas.

Health officials in Hamas-controlled Gaza say at least 1,105 Palestinians have been killed and 5,100 wounded since Israel launched an operation on 27 December to end rocket attacks against its people.

Thirteen Israelis - three of them civilians - have died, while 233 soldiers have been wounded, the Israeli army says.

Tens of thousands of mourners took to the streets of Gaza City for the funeral of a top Hamas leader, Said Siyam, who died when his brother's house in Gaza City was bombed on Thursday.

In Gaza City, the BBC's Hamada Abuqammar says Israeli artillery fire has continued, even during the daily humanitarian ceasefire, although the bombardment was not as intense as on Thursday.

He said the Quds hospital was now empty, after sick and wounded patients had to be evacuated from the building overnight because of a fire caused by a tank shell.

The senior UN official in Gaza, John Ging, meanwhile described as "total nonsense" claims by Israel that militants had fired from a UN compound shelled by Israel on Thursday.

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I am confused on that you would not use the threads that were setup for this
Until the situation dies down, there is not a need for the complete P&N first page to be full of incidents

Please come back in a week when things have stabilized.

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy

 

[Zebo]

Yup terrible terrible leadership Israel has. They'll be gone too soon like Bush.

 

[JS80]

Dari's worthless post to ATPN.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Dari
America does not sell arms to Hamas

America does not support Hamas in any way

America has no influence on the people Hamas is buying their weapons from

The Bush Administration is at the i love you end of its rule

I have no idea what this "deal" is about but it looks like the Israelis feel they need to be seen doing something to bring this conflict to an end. So they come to Washington D.C. and sign something that won't change anything on the ground. All it implies is that they want to get out of Gaza as ASAP. What a pity considering it looks like Hamas was bucking.

It's not about changing the current situation on the ground. The US is involved because we give a load of money to Egypt and can use that as influence over Egypt to actually commit to shutting down the arms smuggling routes between Egypt and Gaza. Despite what some in here may claim, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Gazans. They'd much rather have a peaceful solution but any such solution must provide some guarantees that those smuggling routes are shut down.

 

[Bulk Beef]

I have no idea what this "deal" is about

That about sums it up.

 

[filetitan]

Originally posted by: Bulk Beef

I have no idea what this "deal" is about

That about sums it up.

lol

 

[BrownTown]

I guess the point is that the USA and Israel agreed they wouldn't accept any peace unless Egypt agreed to stop the smuggling.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
I guess the point is that the USA and Israel agreed they wouldn't accept any peace unless Egypt agreed to stop the smuggling.

The sooner Egypt steps up to the plate and stops this illegal underground tunnel smuggling thing, the sooner Gaza will run out of weapons, food, and medicine. Only then can the final solution be implemented, and there shall be peace.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
America does not sell arms to Hamas

America does not support Hamas in any way

America has no influence on the people Hamas is buying their weapons from

The Bush Administration is at the i love you end of its rule

I have no idea what this "deal" is about but it looks like the Israelis feel they need to be seen doing something to bring this conflict to an end. So they come to Washington D.C. and sign something that won't change anything on the ground. All it implies is that they want to get out of Gaza as ASAP. What a pity considering it looks like Hamas was bucking.

It's not about changing the current situation on the ground. The US is involved because we give a load of money to Egypt and can use that as influence over Egypt to actually commit to shutting down the arms smuggling routes between Egypt and Gaza. Despite what some in here may claim, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Gazans. They'd much rather have a peaceful solution but any such solution must provide some guarantees that those smuggling routes are shut down.

The Egyptians won't stop anything because America has nothing on them. What are they going to threaten them with, an election in which the Muslim Brotherhood could easily win? Stop paying them their yearly bribe so they can become destabilized?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Dari
The Egyptians won't stop anything because America has nothing on them. What are they going to threaten them with, an election in which the Muslim Brotherhood could easily win? Stop paying them their yearly bribe so they can become destabilized?

That yearly bribe is a significant amount. Everyone has their price. Egypt does and has for some time.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
The Egyptians won't stop anything because America has nothing on them. What are they going to threaten them with, an election in which the Muslim Brotherhood could easily win? Stop paying them their yearly bribe so they can become destabilized?

That yearly bribe is a significant amount. Everyone has their price. Egypt does and has for some time.

True, but considering America's strategic failure ("The road to peace in the Middle East goes through Baghdad") in that region leaves us humbled and our options extremely limited.

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
America does not sell arms to Hamas

America does not support Hamas in any way

America has no influence on the people Hamas is buying their weapons from

The Bush Administration is at the i love you end of its rule

I have no idea what this "deal" is about but it looks like the Israelis feel they need to be seen doing something to bring this conflict to an end. So they come to Washington D.C. and sign something that won't change anything on the ground. All it implies is that they want to get out of Gaza as ASAP. What a pity considering it looks like Hamas was bucking.

It's not about changing the current situation on the ground. The US is involved because we give a load of money to Egypt and can use that as influence over Egypt to actually commit to shutting down the arms smuggling routes between Egypt and Gaza. Despite what some in here may claim, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Gazans. They'd much rather have a peaceful solution but any such solution must provide some guarantees that those smuggling routes are shut down.

Bullshit. More than one quarter of the Knesset members openly support the "Greater Israel" ideology, meaning from the Euphrates to the Nile. The rest of them continue to support the ongoing colonization of the West Bank. They don't want peace, contrary to what their propaganda machine may say, they want the continued oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people, in the hopes that we'll all pick up and leave.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
The Egyptians won't stop anything because America has nothing on them. What are they going to threaten them with, an election in which the Muslim Brotherhood could easily win? Stop paying them their yearly bribe so they can become destabilized?

That yearly bribe is a significant amount. Everyone has their price. Egypt does and has for some time.

As has the rest of the Arab world. The majority of their rulers just sit around their TVs and "feel bad about it."

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
America does not sell arms to Hamas

America does not support Hamas in any way

America has no influence on the people Hamas is buying their weapons from

The Bush Administration is at the i love you end of its rule

I have no idea what this "deal" is about but it looks like the Israelis feel they need to be seen doing something to bring this conflict to an end. So they come to Washington D.C. and sign something that won't change anything on the ground. All it implies is that they want to get out of Gaza as ASAP. What a pity considering it looks like Hamas was bucking.

It's not about changing the current situation on the ground. The US is involved because we give a load of money to Egypt and can use that as influence over Egypt to actually commit to shutting down the arms smuggling routes between Egypt and Gaza. Despite what some in here may claim, Israel doesn't want to wipe out the Gazans. They'd much rather have a peaceful solution but any such solution must provide some guarantees that those smuggling routes are shut down.

Bullshit. More than one quarter of the Knesset members openly support the "Greater Israel" ideology, meaning from the Euphrates to the Nile. The rest of them continue to support the ongoing colonization of the West Bank. They don't want peace, contrary to what their propaganda machine may say, they want the continued oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people, in the hopes that we'll all pick up and leave.

I was talking about Gaza, not the West Bank.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dari
The Egyptians won't stop anything because America has nothing on them. What are they going to threaten them with, an election in which the Muslim Brotherhood could easily win? Stop paying them their yearly bribe so they can become destabilized?

That yearly bribe is a significant amount. Everyone has their price. Egypt does and has for some time.

As has the rest of the Arab world. The majority of their rulers just sit around their TVs and "feel bad about it."

More like crocodile tears. Palestinians are their pawns and the useful Palestinian idiots in power continue to allow the Palestinian people to be used and abused by those Arab leaders. There never should have been violence in the first place and if people want to see the real source of this conflict they should eye the Arab leaders that led them down this path of destruction starting decades ago.

 

[Lemon law]

First of all, I think the thesis of this thread is only somewhat true, namely "Israel's worthless trip to America." To the extent Israel has to share with America, their plans for a cease fire, with the Israel a de facto ally of the USA, such a trip is necessary at such a stage of the current Gaza conflict, but on the other hand, the timing bad. Because in a matter of a few days, GWB will be leaving Washington, and it would not be kosher for GWB to make any US commitments beyond the few remaining days he has left in office. And then one of the main new deciders will be President Obama, and barring major low probability events like assassination, death by natural causes, or removal by impeachment, we are then talking at least the next four year or eight year unknowable future. And also somewhat asking who will be the first US President to revoke the semi black check we have written to Israel for the past forty plus years. A US policy that has alienated the 300 million populations of surrounding Arab States, while it has made the entire mid-east a political tinderbox. its complicated our Iraqi occupation, and has adversely affected the cause of peace and stability. Worse yet, up until GWB, the Arab states still saw the USA, even though they felt the USA was too pro-Israeli, as a viable peace partner, but with the GWB lies about WMD, and abuses in ABu-Ghrab, the Arab states no longer trust the USA as a viable, truthful, or trustworthy peace partner.

We can somewhat choose to hopefully look at the current Israeli incursion into Gaza, as something that will end rocket attacks coming from Gaza, or look at it as just the latest chapter in a longer struggle that will go on, and on, and on until some just solution is reached. Basically the record of the past 60 years. And we must also take into account the comment of " More than one quarter of the Knesset members openly support the "Greater Israel" ideology, meaning from the Euphrates to the Nile. The rest of them continue to support the ongoing colonization of the West Bank. They don't want peace, contrary to what their propaganda machine may say, they want the continued oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people, in the hopes that we'll all pick up and leave." And if there is any validity to that, or even the perception of that, Arab States may fear current Israeli military hegemony, but fear inspires no love, and it also becomes in Arab national interests not to assimilate that Palestinians either because it keeps Israel pinned down while Arab States are more than willing to fund even more Stateless terrorists.

But if we look at the past 3000 years or so of history, the area now called Israel has changed hands almost countless times, and in that larger sweep of history, 60 years is but a moment, and its difficult for me to see Israel lasting another 60 years if Israel keeps building up hatreds while trying to gobble ever yet more land.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I was talking about Gaza, not the West Bank.

And he is talking about how Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are kept defenceless as Israel colonizes the West Bank out from under them.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
More like crocodile tears. Palestinians are their pawns and the useful Palestinian idiots in power continue to allow the Palestinian people to be used and abused by those Arab leaders. There never should have been violence in the first place and if people want to see the real source of this conflict they should eye the Arab leaders that led them down this path of destruction starting decades ago.

Sure, there was nothing violent about Israeli militias and terrorists drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes, but the Arab nations sending in their armies to stop that conquest is where the problems started.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
But if we look at the past 3000 years or so of history, the area now called Israel has changed hands almost countless times...

If only you could learn to count with your toes as well as your fingers, you would be able to count high enough.

Furthermore, this is the first time in history that the existing population is being kept oppressed and defenceless as the land is colonized out from under them, and at least arguably more horrific than anything which came before it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I was talking about Gaza, not the West Bank.

And he is talking about how Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank are kept defenceless as Israel colonizes the West Bank out from under them.

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you but not every utternace of "Gaza" is an opening for some of you to jump up on your "poor, defenseless, oppressed Palestinians" sopabox.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
More like crocodile tears. Palestinians are their pawns and the useful Palestinian idiots in power continue to allow the Palestinian people to be used and abused by those Arab leaders. There never should have been violence in the first place and if people want to see the real source of this conflict they should eye the Arab leaders that led them down this path of destruction starting decades ago.

Sure, there was nothing violent about Israeli militias and terrorists drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes, but the Arab nations sending in their armies to stop that conquest is where the problems started.

Just like Arabs drove out hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries both in the deep past and reletively recently?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...exodus_from_Arab_lands

There are more sides to the story than the single side you present.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you but not every utternace of "Gaza" is an opening for some of you to jump up on your "poor, defenseless, oppressed Palestinians" sopabox.

I am just trying to come down from your 'fuck Palestinians in the ass and make them like it' soapbox.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Just like Arabs drove out hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries both in the deep past and reletively recently?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...exodus_from_Arab_lands

Is that a two wrongs make right argument?

Regardless, the claim that the recent deportation of Jews from Arab lands justifies the Israel's displacement hundreds of thousands of Palestinians which came before it is a flagrant reversal of cause and effect.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
There are more sides to the story than the single side you present.

Obviously, I present the side to counter the absurd arguments which people like yourself make.

 

[gingermeggs]

those ak47 copies you see them holding are made in china.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
those ak47 copies you see them holding are made in china.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow what an insight, Gaza is really shooting in a barrage of AK-47 rounds, and that why Israel is so worked up. At this rate, every square inch of the entire State of Israel will be ass deep in depleted Ak-47 bullets.

But in relative terms if you are wishing for the that gift that the giftie ge ye, the rational pray for for American made jet fighters, American made smart bombs, and American made tanks given free gratis.

And your brilliant insight point was, what gingermeggs?

 

[kylebisme]

Here is a report from a Korean reporter showing some peaceful protesting over in the West Bank, and Israel's response to such efforts, that our news never shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2UE4GWfB58

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Here is a report from a Korean reporter showing some peaceful protesting over in the West Bank, and Israel's response to such efforts, that our news never shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2UE4GWfB58

She is mildly attractive. I'm glad they spared her life.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you but not every utternace of "Gaza" is an opening for some of you to jump up on your "poor, defenseless, oppressed Palestinians" sopabox.

I am just trying to come down from your 'fuck Palestinians in the ass and make them like it' soapbox.

The Palestinians have fucked themselves in the ass for a long time by being pawns of the Arab world. I wish them the best but have little hope when they elect militants as their leaders and teach their children hate. They don't need guns, they need a Ghandi to lead them from darkness.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Just like Arabs drove out hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries both in the deep past and reletively recently?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...exodus_from_Arab_lands

Is that a two wrongs make right argument?

Regardless, the claim that the recent deportation of Jews from Arab lands justifies the Israel's displacement hundreds of thousands of Palestinians which came before it is a flagrant reversal of cause and effect.

I'm merely pointing out both sides of the story. That's an issue you've once again attempted to completely deflect. While you incessantly whine about the treatment of one particular side you neglect the other completely, almost contemptuously. I recognize both sides and that one is really no better than the other. So, tell me. Who is being more fair about this?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
There are more sides to the story than the single side you present.

Obviously, I present the side to counter the absurd arguments which people like yourself make.

No. You present absurd arguments to those you can't counter because of your blatant bias to one side.

I have no dog in this race. If the sides were flipped my opinion wouldn't change. Would yours? I bet it would.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Palestinians have fucked themselves in the ass for a long time by being pawns of the Arab world. I wish them the best but have little hope when they elect militants as their leaders and teach their children hate. They don't need guns, they need a Ghandi to lead them from darkness.

Palestinians never asked to have their homeland colonized out from under them by militant ethnic nationalist movement. How exactly have you shifted the onus on to them here?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm merely pointing out both sides of the story. That's an issue you've once again attempted to completely deflect.

What issue? I have no reason to deflect any of what you mentioned, or any other facts.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
While you incessantly whine about the treatment of one particular side you neglect the other completely, almost contemptuously.

Your callous disregard for the current misstreatment of one particular side speaks for itself.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I recognize both sides and that one is really no better than the other. So, tell me. Who is being more fair about this?

The one of us who isn't trying to blame the victim.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
No. You present absurd arguments to those you can't counter because of your blatant bias to one side.

What arguments of are you suggesting I haven't addressed?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I have no dog in this race. If the sides were flipped my opinion wouldn't change. Would yours? I bet it would.

I don't doubt you do belive as much. However, my positions on this conflict are shard with many Israelis, and many others from all backgrounds all over the world. Here is a rundown on the solution to this conflict, from a notable Israeli:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/avnery

Your position on the other hand only exists in any notable quantity in Israel in the US, were propaganda portrays this conquest of Palestine to blame the victims and shift the onus to stop it on to them. If you don't think you have a dog in this, then you are being taken for a ride.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Palestinians have fucked themselves in the ass for a long time by being pawns of the Arab world. I wish them the best but have little hope when they elect militants as their leaders and teach their children hate. They don't need guns, they need a Ghandi to lead them from darkness.

Palestinians never asked to have their homeland colonized out from under them by militant ethnic nationalist movement. How exactly have you shifted the onus on to them here?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm merely pointing out both sides of the story. That's an issue you've once again attempted to completely deflect.

What issue? I have no reason to deflect any of what you mentioned, or any other facts.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
While you incessantly whine about the treatment of one particular side you neglect the other completely, almost contemptuously.

Your callous disregard for the current misstreatment of one particular side speaks for itself.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I recognize both sides and that one is really no better than the other. So, tell me. Who is being more fair about this?

The one of us who isn't trying to blame the victim.

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
No. You present absurd arguments to those you can't counter because of your blatant bias to one side.

What arguments of are you suggesting I haven't addressed?

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I have no dog in this race. If the sides were flipped my opinion wouldn't change. Would yours? I bet it would.

I don't doubt you do belive as much. However, my positions on this conflict are shard with many Israelis, and many others from all backgrounds all over the world. Here is a rundown on the solution to this conflict, from a notable Israeli:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/avnery

Your position on the other hand only exists in any notable quantity in Israel in the US, were propaganda portrays this conquest of Palestine to blame the victims and shift the onus to stop it on to them. If you don't think you have a dog in this, then you are being taken for a ride.

I put sentences in paragraphs for a reason. Attempt to address them as such instead of parsing everything I write.

You start off with a red herring of a response with "Palestinians never asked...."

Well...duh. Where is it written that we ask for and grant permission for everything that befalls us in life? I don't believe I've ever seen such guarantees anywhere. No doubt the hundreds of thousands of Jews didn't asked to be kicked out of Arab countries either.

As far as blaming the victim, they deserve the blame. At least you can point to Israelis that speak out against their own. Where are the Palestinians that speak out against Hamas' brutal treatment of their own people? While Gaza wasn't anything great prior to Hamas, at least Palestinians could eek out a living there. Once Hamas took over they draggedd that place straight to the hellhole it is today. Instead of spending money to help their people they build a couple of hospitals and spend the rest on arming themselves with missiles to lob into Israel. There wouldn't be blockades and border closings if not for Hamas' actions. They brought it upon themselves.

If there is ever to be peace there has to be a concerted effort on BOTH sides. So stop pretending that the onus is on Israel and they are the major roadblock. If anything, Israel has shown the far greater likelyhood of making concessions towards peace. What have the Palestinians shown? They elect miltant groups that blatantly call for the destruction of Israel. Yeah, that will take them a long way towards peace.

 

[Lemon law]

There is a little insincerity with THC merely asserting, "I have no dog in this race. If the sides were flipped my opinion wouldn't change. Would yours? I bet it would."

Somewhat the better question to ask would be to have TLC to switch places with a Palestinian living in Gaza, and walk for 40 years in those shoes.
I would then bet my bottom dollar the THC position would change.