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Israeli Soldiers Admit To Deliberately Killing Civilians In Gaza

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jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
18
81
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
the goal of the IDF is to avoid murdering innocent people
LMAO!
begging your pardon, is it your contention that if the IDF wanted to exterminate palestinian civilians on a mass basis that they somehow lack the capability?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,942
126
Originally posted by: cultgag
Agreed. Most of us as Americans will never be able to understand this war. I feel for civilians of both sides caught up in this war.
Yeah I agree with this. Back in 1999-2002 I listened intently as to what was going on there but now I'm just like wtf :confused: I think we should not spend any American money in that area at all. No rebuilding for Gaza, no support for Israel, just let them blow each other up till the end of time and hope they find some why to work it out.

Only thing good coming from Israel are the women and some good audio software.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
the goal of the IDF is to avoid murdering innocent people
LMAO!
begging your pardon, is it your contention that if the IDF wanted to exterminate palestinian civilians on a mass basis that they somehow lack the capability?
No, no of course not - they simply don't care about the civilians. The 'goal of the IDF' is fairly obviously to eliminate all resistance to the expansion of Israel.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
the goal of the IDF is to avoid murdering innocent people
LMAO!
begging your pardon, is it your contention that if the IDF wanted to exterminate palestinian civilians on a mass basis that they somehow lack the capability?
No, no of course not - they simply don't care about the civilians. The 'goal of the IDF' is fairly obviously to eliminate all resistance to the expansion of Israel.
And that's simply no way to win a war. You HAVE to win over the civilian population or else the war will last forever.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
774
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Atheus
Originally posted by: jonks
the goal of the IDF is to avoid murdering innocent people
LMAO!
begging your pardon, is it your contention that if the IDF wanted to exterminate palestinian civilians on a mass basis that they somehow lack the capability?
No, no of course not - they simply don't care about the civilians. The 'goal of the IDF' is fairly obviously to eliminate all resistance to the expansion of Israel.
And that's simply no way to win a war. You HAVE to win over the civilian population or else the war will last forever.
Well, you COULD commit mass genocide and try to hide it (like the IDF tried to do).
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
774
126
?Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.?


?I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.?


-Ariel Sharon
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
18
81
Originally posted by: Phokus

?I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.?
-Ariel Sharon
"I rape and then eat little boys."

- Phokus

Wow, making up quotes is easy! Ben Franklin hated Jews too!

Care to substantiate your cut and paste from anti-israeli sites? Or maybe post the truth which is that he never said that, and no one reported he said it?
http://www.camera.org/index.as...utlet=73&x_article=766

FABRICATED

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon

Source given: Ariel Sharon in an interview with General Ouze Merham in 1956

Investigation: This quote was found on hundreds of Arab Web sites, and indeed, seems to be a a staple of anti-Israel propaganda. It cannot be found, however, in any text book, news article, or published record, nor is there any mention or record of a General Ouze Merham anywhere else. (Another giveaway is that the term ?Palestinian? was not in use in 1956. It only came into vogue in the 1960's.)

Student columnist Mariam Sobh used the quote in her December 11, 2003 Daily Illinicolumn, but later had to apologize.

Summary: Fabricated quote, fabricated source.
Don't let this stop you though. The Internets are never wrong.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Craig234
This is sickening. To their credit, they at least have an investigative process we can only hope has soime honesty and does some good.

Unfortunately, the side here that almost undconditionally backs Israel will probably be mostly unaffected by the facts, continuing their demonization of Palestinians to justify it.
I'm not Pro Israel but wtf, how about Hamas, are they going to open up an investigation regarding their fighters killing innocent Israeli civilians? Also what's your opinion about all the innocent Palestinian civilians Hamas murdered in their power grab?
1. Read the second sentence in my post. The one that begins "To their credit....". That already made the same point you did about the fact the Palestinian side has issues too, that they don't even have the same sort of standards for dealing with the wrongs - as a resistance movement more than a government comparable to Israel (see later comments), it's to Israel's credit that they at least have some standards that this is wrong, and can possibly take corrective action - that needs ot be strengthened, though.

I've seen the usual propagandistic 'bad apple' posts - when they do it, their whole side is accountable, but when our side does it, it's 'bad apples', even if it was policy.

2. How many Israeli civilians has Hamas killed, and how many Palastenian civilians has Israel killed? Isn't it something like 'under 5' versus 'nearly 1000' the last couple years?

3. Which side are we more responsible for - who are we giving billions in military aid to every year? Only one side that we are responsible for.

4. Remember, Hamas was created with Israel's help, as they used the age old 'divide and conquer' approach to try to create a split among Palestinians to weaken the PLO.

It's not at all uncommon for a group in the situation of the Palestenians to get competig groups murdering one another. It's tragic, but how are you going to avoid it, when you have the pressures of things like the varying approaches to how to deal with the oppression from Israel, the people who will compromise more and those who will compromise less, each wanting to lead? The tensions are shown by how the people turned to Hamas when they felt Fatah was terribly corrupted and ineffective.

I think it's terrible how Hamas has murdered. You might imagine though there are huge pressures going on with the competition for power. COnsider how they have dealt with informers who cooperate with Israel over the years, since Israel is constantly working to create spies among the Palestinians, who among other things identify leadership for Israel to assassinate. It's a bloody, messy, tragic situation.

You can find in many political struggles violent periodds between competing groups. Even in our own Revolutionary war, there were Americans on both sides of the war.

It's not really framing the issue very accurately to try to treat it like two sides in a war, as if it's two states, when the sides are so hugely unequal in power.

It's more like a resistance movement with a semi-occupier who wants to be free of the occupation.

Remember how North Vietnamese were terrorists for using terrorism to remove the US's puppet regime in 'South Vietnam' - but how we conveniently forgot the history that South Vietnam itself was our creation to 'steal' half of Vietnam, so it's ok when we do it using our political and military strngth - the history of how we had happily supported the occupation of Vietnam by France for decades - even the fact that we were training terrorists and sending them into North Vietnam? But that wasn't how we saw the conflict, was it?

It reminds me a little of our 'outrage' over the Indians killing Custer's unit - forgetting why they were there, to massacre the Indians. Amazing how blinding bias can be.

As a rsistance movement, the Palestinians are better compared with the African National Congress in South Africa during the apartheid era, who were 'violent terrorists'; better compared with the Algerian resistance who murdered the French occupiers, including the family members there of the French occupation. Have you ever seen or read 'The Batle of Algiers'? It's a tragic, violent situation - and all too easy to be blinded by bias, hating the violence of the resistance while forgetting the injustices by the dominant power, but not noting that the only way that these unjust power situations seem to get changed is through the use of violent resistance. Even in the US, on a much smaller scale, it was the black riots of the late 1960's that got the attention of the nation's white government to form a national commission on the race issues, because the riots were intolerable, even as the whites condemned the lack of 'law and order', and belatedly embraced Martin Luther King's 'non-violent' approach, after years of the FBI trying to destroy and even kill him.

You could condemn every person killed by the ANC, by North Vietnam, by the Algerian resistance, by the FMLN in El Salvador, by the Palestinians - but how then do you suggest the larger injustes get addressed of the white Apartheid regime, the colonization of Vietnam, the colonization of Algeria, the setting up of a brutal puppet regime in El Salvador with death squads? How are YOU going to non-violently fix the injustices?

The topic in this thread is the inappropriate use of violence by Israel against Palestinian civilians. Why can't that be discussed without the 'ya but' response as if if any wrong by Israel is justified? Why can't you simply say 'yes, Israel was wrong if ths is true, and it's good to see justice being done'? What legitimate interest of Israel was served by the excessive killing of civilians? Are Palestinian lives worth nothing, so that if slaughtering 500 Palestenians saves a few lives in the Israeli forces, it's justified - is that the right way to have policies on the military who is invading/occupying a city? If so, you have justified every brutal occupation that's ever happened.

Did you see American troops slaughtering the civilians of Germay and Japan after WWII 'just to be safe from any resistance'? If you had, how would those occupations have gone? Oh, you might say, those were different - there were large populations in those nations, and it'd have been difficult to deal with the resistance had that happened. So, then, the question isn't the justice, but simply the logistics, that it's ok to slaughter if the power baance makes it work ok?

I said in my post I expected the response to this by some to be not to deal with the issue with Israel, but to just do a 'ya but' responmse demonizing the Palestinians.

I was surprised to see you be one of the people doing that, especially raising an objection I'd already (I thought) implicitly addressed that I'm hardly saying Hamas lacks flaws.

But you can't answer every issue about one side by simply restating the same demonization of the other side, giving unlimited license to one side to do anything.

I await your answer to the bolded question above, to let me know how you can resolve injustices without the use of such violence.

IMO, as a powerful, pribiliged people, we have some bias for 'authority' and against 'resistance', because we have not much had to be in the shoes of the occupied.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: cultgag
Agreed. Most of us as Americans will never be able to understand this war. I feel for civilians of both sides caught up in this war.
Yeah I agree with this. Back in 1999-2002 I listened intently as to what was going on there but now I'm just like wtf :confused: I think we should not spend any American money in that area at all. No rebuilding for Gaza, no support for Israel, just let them blow each other up till the end of time and hope they find some why to work it out.

Only thing good coming from Israel are the women and some good audio software.
I'm going to give you credit that you were kidding, but I think it's a bad idea to joke about dehumanizing people that way when the dehumanization is such a core real issue there.

The inherent value of the human life involved on all sides needs to be a central principle, and it's frequently not, and the joke you made is all too often too real about people's views.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partionijng and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partionijng and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of ISreal to exist there might be some resolution.

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around everytime the Arabs got their courage up.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partionijng and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of ISreal to exist there might be some resolution.

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around everytime the Arabs got their courage up.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.

Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
141
116
Check out these t-shirts made for Israeli soldiers mocking the killing of Palestinian women and children.

A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) told Sky News Online, the t-shirts were printed on the private initiative of the soldiers and their designs "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless. This type of humour is unacceptable and should be condemned".
Sounds like IDF soldiers have this idea ingrained in their head that Palestinian civilians are good for target practice.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Check out these t-shirts made for Israeli soldiers mocking the killing of Palestinian women and children.

A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) told Sky News Online, the t-shirts were printed on the private initiative of the soldiers and their designs "are not in accordance with IDF values and are simply tasteless. This type of humour is unacceptable and should be condemned".
Sounds like some IDF soldiers have this idea ingrained in their head that Palestinian civilians are good for target practice.
Corrected for accuracy

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partionijng and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of ISreal to exist there might be some resolution.

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around everytime the Arabs got their courage up.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.

Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
60 years ago, the Arabs themsevles rejected Israel and were humiliated - had to call on the UN to protect their asses.

30 years ago the PLO duplicated the previous mistakes

Now Hezbollah and Hamas have duplicated the same mistakes.

Those that want to reject Israel are willing to sacrifice the local civilian population for their ego power trips. And they rule the local civilians by force and fear.


The leadership 30 years from now will hopefully realize that those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Israel is not going to sacrifice her safety for the wellbeing of the Palestinian civilians.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partionijng and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of ISreal to exist there might be some resolution.

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around everytime the Arabs got their courage up.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.

Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
60 years ago, the Arabs themsevles rejected Israel and were humiliated - had to call on the UN to protect their asses.

30 years ago the PLO duplicated the previous mistakes

Now Hezbollah and Hamas have duplicated the same mistakes.

Those that want to reject Israel are willing to sacrifice the local civilian population for their ego power trips. And they rule the local civilians by force and fear.


The leadership 30 years from now will hopefully realize that those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Israel is not going to sacrifice her safety for the wellbeing of the Palestinian civilians.
That's the thing though. They have the numbers and they have time. They can afford to fight this war of attrition. 300 million vs. 5 million aren't good odds. With Iran's nuclear weapons coming on stream within the next decade and both sides becoming more extreme, the future doesn't bode well for an Israel not at peace with her neighbors. The best case I can think of is an Israel under siege. So, unless she makes peace with the Arabs and try to win over the Arab civilian population I don't see Jews having much of a future in the Middle East.

You can talk about security all you want and speak in terms of weapons and enemies, but you will only have true security when you add the civilian dimension. Targeting and killing them like they're inhuman will only breed more hatred.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of ISreal to exist there might be some resolution.
Hamas has offered a long-term truce. Israel has refused to accept the offer, but continues its activities dominating the Palestinians and taking more land (and water, etc.)

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around everytime the Arabs got their courage up.
Funny, I thought their position had something to do with the placement of a Jewish homeland to say 'sorry for the Holocaust' by the West in their lands, not Europe's.

Regardless, they've offered that truce and Israel has rejected it.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.
While Israel insists on continuing repressions, will Palastenians want to live with Israel?

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.
Nice blind propaganda. Demonize them so you can avoid any reasonable discussion.

Originally posted by: Dari
Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
At least there is a good sized proportion of Israel that's much more reasonable, who we can hope increases in power.

There's a bit of chicken and egg in the repression being reduced, allowing for Palestinian leaders to get public support for more peace efforts.

'Stop opposing Israel and the repression might be reduced'. 'Stop oppressing Palestinians and the opposition to Isrsel might get reduced.'

If the Palestenians simply say they will delcare a truce with Israel, they seem to ask what pressure do they have to put on Israel to not oppress them? The lesson of 2008 for them was that they did agree to a truce in exchange for promises to change the emargo, and that Israel did not keep its end of the bargain, taking the truce and keeping the embargo.

Might almost make you think Israel doesn't mind there being a conflict that gives them a pretext for the measures they're taking.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Obama personally approves the murder of civilians on Pakistani soil, what's the difference, other than one is an issue of domestic control and the other could be construed as an international act of war on a sovereign country?

Oh, I'm not expecting any (honest) response from the OP.
Confirmed.

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Craig234
/snip

You're right. I demand Hamas end their occupation of the Jewish lands, their vast military domination and partitioning and checkpoints and especially their settlements.
Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of Israel to exist there might be some resolution.

Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLo, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around every time the Arabs got their courage up.

Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.

Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
60 years ago, the Arabs themselves rejected Israel and were humiliated - had to call on the UN to protect their asses.

30 years ago the PLO duplicated the previous mistakes

Now Hezbollah and Hamas have duplicated the same mistakes.

Those that want to reject Israel are willing to sacrifice the local civilian population for their ego power trips. And they rule the local civilians by force and fear.


The leadership 30 years from now will hopefully realize that those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Israel is not going to sacrifice her safety for the wellbeing of the Palestinian civilians.
That's the thing though. They have the numbers and they have time. They can afford to fight this war of attrition. 300 million vs. 5 million aren't good odds. With Iran's nuclear weapons coming on stream within the next decade and both sides becoming more extreme, the future doesn't bode well for an Israel not at peace with her neighbors. The best case I can think of is an Israel under siege. So, unless she makes peace with the Arabs and try to win over the Arab civilian population I don't see Jews having much of a future in the Middle East.

You can talk about security all you want and speak in terms of weapons and enemies, but you will only have true security when you add the civilian dimension. Targeting and killing them like they're inhuman will only breed more hatred.
There are 5 Arab nations that interface with Israel.

Egypt and Jordan have made peace.

Syria is a sore loser.
Lebanon is controlled by Iran/Syria.
The Palestinian shave continued to elect leadership that wants war/conflict, not prosperity.

Syria is not crazy enough to take on Israel on its own.
Lebanon is weak and also the actual government has nothing to gain, nor the desire/capability.

The Palestinians are the major thorn.
Abbas is able to realize that conflict will lead nowhere and cause hardship on the people.
Hamas needs the conflict to justify them staying in power.
They are just an extension of Arafat and the PLO.

 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,023
5,106
126
Israel is either an occupier or an apartheid state, depending on whether you view Palestenian territories as independent or parts of Israel. I don't think we should be supporting either.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Maybe if Hamas acknowledge the right of Israel to exist there might be some resolution.
Hamas has offered a long-term truce. Israel has refused to accept the offer, but continues its activities dominating the Palestinians and taking more land (and water, etc.)

What truce has Hamas offered - they have told Israel that they would no longer shell ISrael, but they would also not stop anyone that wished to. that is not the voice of a responsible government. Hamas knows when launchers are set up - to allow it to happen and then blame Israel for retailiation is justa way of trying to fool those thatare on the fence. Hamas has nevertried to maintain a truce and then compalined that after they broke the truce, that Israel retaliates.

Why should Israel have to sit on her hands for 6 months while Hamas be allowed to shell Israel and/or allow the shelling.


Of course the fact that the Hamas, Fatah, PLO, etc are just extension of Arab bitterness for loss of face in the fact that little Israel slapped them around every time the Arabs got their courage up.
Funny, I thought their position had something to do with the placement of a Jewish homeland to say 'sorry for the Holocaust' by the West in their lands, not Europe's.

Regardless, they've offered that truce and Israel has rejected it.

the Arabs agreed to Israel and then attacked the moment the Brits were out of the picture.
How many times have the Arabs attacked? How many times has Israel attacked the Arab nations?


Until Hamas decides that they want to live with Israel, will the Palestinians that are living under Hamas domination have a chance.
While Israel insists on continuing repressions, will Palestinians want to live with Israel?

This becomes a tit for tat. The Palestinians on the West Bank have a higher standard than those in Gaza. Why - check the leadership. the Palestinians ask for land from Israel. When given, the Arabs keep attacking. What is the incentive for Israel to give up more land? the Hamas word is meaningless - that has been demonstrated multiple times.

But Hamas wants their power through conflict, the Palestinian people are just pawns.
Nice blind propaganda. Demonize them so you can avoid any reasonable discussion.

Hamas took control of Gaza via military force; Hamas has executed their Palestinian political oppponents. Hamas has taken supplies meant forthe Palestinian people stating that the supplies may be going to their political opponents.

All the above is documented.
Hamas is the problem for the Palestinians, not the Palestinians themselves. The ones in Gaza are sheep being led around by rings in their nose (at the point of AK47).


Originally posted by: Dari
Notice how it was the PLO 30 years ago; Hamas today. Who will it be tomorrow? You can't keep fighting forever, with ever more deadly enemies. Furthermore, seeing how many kids Palestinians and extremist (Orthodox) Jews are having, I see this conflict becoming far more partisan, religious and deadlier, with the secular Jews staying in Europe and America.
At least there is a good sized proportion of Israel that's much more reasonable, who we can hope increases in power.

There's a bit of chicken and egg in the repression being reduced, allowing for Palestinian leaders to get public support for more peace efforts.

'Stop opposing Israel and the repression might be reduced'. 'Stop oppressing Palestinians and the opposition to Israel might get reduced.'

If the Palestinians simply say they will declare a truce with Israel, they seem to ask what pressure do they have to put on Israel to not oppress them? The lesson of 2008 for them was that they did agree to a truce in exchange for promises to change the embargo, and that Israel did not keep its end of the bargain, taking the truce and keeping the embargo.

Might almost make you think Israel doesn't mind there being a conflict that gives them a pretext for the measures they're taking.

The end to the embargo was continguent of a couple of issues. Hamas failed on both.
Note that Israel at least allows supplies in to those that profess to exterminate her.

Hamas smuggles in weapons instead of supplies for the people. that is concern for the local population?


You are welcome to parrot Snowman's talking points for justification of Palestinian actions.

The bottom line is Hamas does not care about the Palestinian population, they care about their own power and the Palestinians affort great media coverage to those that want to root for the underdog no matter what happened.

The Arabs have not cared for the Palestinians, only Israel has attempted to improve their life. And the Palestinians want to punish Israel for the success in standing up.

 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,699
3,165
126
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Dari
Is anyone really surprised the Israelis do this? All they have to do is say "Look, the other side is much worse."
Every military/law enforcement will have some bad apples.

Conflict is uses as an excuse or a way to exhibit such behaivor.

The difference is: Is it a part of the training system or a few slip under the screeners.
In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not. Don't get me wrong, Israel is in a precarious situation with all those hostile peoples surrounding her. But I've seen enough to judge the Israeli military to be closer to her enemies when it comes to respecting the laws of war. Hell, they have a habit of killing American citizens too.

Add the fact that they also spy on my country (America), I will never visit Israel.
Dari are so blinded you have n clue??
The spyng is tit for tat....you hav to be a complete moron if you think we don`t spy on Israel!!

Also I want to break this news to you gently--NOBODY CARES IF YOU VISIT ISRAEL!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,699
3,165
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Obama personally approves the murder of civilians on Pakistani soil, what's the difference, other than one is an issue of domestic control and the other could be construed as an international act of war on a sovereign country?

Oh, I'm not expecting any (honest) response from the OP.
Does Obama personally approe of the murder of civilains.....
Do youhave a link or are you just being the village idiot?
 

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