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Israeli Soldiers Admit To Deliberately Killing Civilians In Gaza

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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Glad to see the truth finally coming out. I think the only way the Israeli government will reform their murderous ways is if their own citizens hear these horror stories...unarmed women and children being ripped apart by Israeli sniper fire.

Text

The Israeli army has been forced to open an investigation into the conduct of its troops in Gaza after damning testimony from its own front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to ?cold-blooded murder?.

The revelations, compiled by the head of an Israel military academy who declared that he was ?shocked? at the findings, come as international rights groups are calling for independent inquiries into the conduct of both sides in the three-week Israeli offensive against Palestinian Islamists.

The soldiers? testimonies include accounts of an unarmed old woman being shot at a distance of 100 yards, a woman and her two children being killed after Israeli soldiers ordered them from their house into the line of fire of a sniper and soldiers clearing houses by shooting anyone they encountered on sight.

?That?s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn?t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him,? one soldier told Danny Zamir, the head of the Rabin pre-military academy, who asked him why a company commander ordered an elderly woman to be shot.

"I gathered the graduate students of the course who fought in Gaza, to hear their impressions from the fighting. I wasn't prepared for any of the stuff I heard there. I was shocked,? Mr Zamir said. ?I think that the writing was on the wall, but we just didn't want to see it, we didn't want to face it."

One non-commissioned officer told Mr Zamir, himself a deputy battalion commander in the reserves, that the army ?fired a lot of rounds and killed a lot of people in order for us not to be injured or shot at.

"When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey? I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself ? how is this reasonable?"

The same unnamed NCO said that his commanding officer ordered soldiers on to a rooftop to shoot an old woman crossing a main street during the fighting, which a Palestinian rights groups said left 1,434 people dead, 960 of them civilians.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,? the NCO said. ?I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out? It was cold-blooded murder."

Another NCO recounted a military blunder that led to a mother and her two children being shot dead by an Israeli sniper. "We had taken over the house? and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left? The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot? you can say he just did what he was told? he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them.

"I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them," the soldier said.

The soldiers? accounts were submitted anonymously at a meeting at the academy around a month ago. The Israel army said that it had started an investigation, but that this was the first time it had heard such testimony, despite having debriefed troops itself.

Breaking The Silence, an organisation of former soldiers who gather witness accounts from troops in the Palestinian territories, said that its own investigation into Operation Cast Lead, as the war was known in Israel, had revealed a similar picture of the fighting.

?It?s definitely in line with what we are hearing,? said one of the researchers.

Another disturbing element reported by the soldiers was the role of military rabbis in distributing booklets that framed the fighting as a religious war. ?All these articles had a clear message: we are the Jewish people, we have come to the land by miraculous means, and now we have to fight to remove the Gentiles who are getting in our way and preventing us from occupying the Holy Land? a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war,? said one soldier.

There were also accounts of soldiers being ordered to throw all the furniture out of Palestinians? homes as they were taken over.

?We simply threw everything out the windows to make room and order. The entire contents of the house flew out the windows: refrigerator, plates, furniture. The order was to remove the entire contents of the house.?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
345
126
This is sickening. To their credit, they at least have an investigative process we can only hope has soime honesty and does some good.

Unfortunately, the side here that almost undconditionally backs Israel will probably be mostly unaffected by the facts, continuing their demonization of Palestinians to justify it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,521
4,198
126
For a long time now God has been switching Palestinian and Israeli fetuses, one for the other, and laughing his ass off as the children grow up trying to kill their parents and denouncing everything they stand for.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
2
0
OK. So shit happens in war, and some soldiers take it too far. Look at the US in Vietnam for starters. Hell look at Abu-Graihb (sp?).

Yes it's horrible, yes it should be dealt with, yes those soldiers should be stripped of their military rank and shoved into prison. But of no surprise whatsoever, and I wouldn't color the entire Israeli military with these acts any more than I would color all of the Vietnam vets with the acts of the relative minority who committed atrocities.

I must also point out that if Hamas had held off on the rockets, none of this would have happened. They called down the thunder (for the... how many times are they up to now?) and apparently didn't expect something of this magnitude. Again. Morons.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,713
3,169
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton
The source of the article is The Times UK, an established UK daily (some consider it the paper of record for the UK). Are you trying to question the validity of the information in the article?
Most papers and news sources from GB have been biased against Israel for decades!
So if it was me I would say Hell YES!!! I am going to question the validity of your source!

Plus if you so a search for artcles on this subject all that comes up is sources that have an anti -- israel stance!

But I would tend to believe that itis true. For no other reason than there are bound to be some bad apples in every basket!!

lolol
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
This is sickening. To their credit, they at least have an investigative process we can only hope has soime honesty and does some good.

Unfortunately, the side here that almost undconditionally backs Israel will probably be mostly unaffected by the facts, continuing their demonization of Palestinians to justify it.
I'm not Pro Israel but wtf, how about Hamas, are they going to open up an investigation regarding their fighters killing innocent Israeli civilians? Also what's your opinion about all the innocent Palestinian civilians Hamas murdered in their power grab?
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
0
Originally posted by: irishScott
I must also point out that if Hamas had held off on the rockets, none of this would have happened. They called down the thunder (for the... how many times are they up to now?) and apparently didn't expect something of this magnitude. Again. Morons.
Israel has broken many cease-fire agreements as well with their assassination of top leaders from various groups. Hamas is not the only instigator here, it's tit-for-tat.
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,702
1
0
the soldiers are for the most part young people who've grown up in a "state of siege", most of them know someone who'e been on the receiving end of a Hamas military attack.

they are taught to hate Arabs.

then they have chaplains like this counseling them
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058758.html

most of the Israeli soldiers don't realize that their own training is similar to that received by young Muslims in a Madrassa learning Jihad.

then they're handed a weapon and given promotions for killing extra people - usually, and punished in case they listent to their conscience.

the Israeli military attack that started on Dec. 27, 2008, had a few conscientious objectors, and they are not well-treated.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Obama personally approves the murder of civilians on Pakistani soil, what's the difference, other than one is an issue of domestic control and the other could be construed as an international act of war on a sovereign country?

Oh, I'm not expecting any (honest) response from the OP.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: irishScott
I must also point out that if Hamas had held off on the rockets, none of this would have happened. They called down the thunder (for the... how many times are they up to now?) and apparently didn't expect something of this magnitude. Again. Morons.
Israel has broken many cease-fire agreements as well with their assassination of top leaders from various groups. Hamas is not the only instigator here, it's tit-for-tat.
Any clue on why the assassinations occur and what those groups represent?

 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
571
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Glad to see the truth finally coming out. I think the only way the Israeli government will reform their murderous ways is if their own citizens hear these horror stories...unarmed women and children being ripped apart by Israeli sniper fire.

Text

The Israeli army has been forced to open an investigation into the conduct of its troops in Gaza after damning testimony from its own front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to ?cold-blooded murder?.

The revelations, compiled by the head of an Israel military academy who declared that he was ?shocked? at the findings, come as international rights groups are calling for independent inquiries into the conduct of both sides in the three-week Israeli offensive against Palestinian Islamists.

The soldiers? testimonies include accounts of an unarmed old woman being shot at a distance of 100 yards, a woman and her two children being killed after Israeli soldiers ordered them from their house into the line of fire of a sniper and soldiers clearing houses by shooting anyone they encountered on sight.

?That?s the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn?t have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him,? one soldier told Danny Zamir, the head of the Rabin pre-military academy, who asked him why a company commander ordered an elderly woman to be shot.

"I gathered the graduate students of the course who fought in Gaza, to hear their impressions from the fighting. I wasn't prepared for any of the stuff I heard there. I was shocked,? Mr Zamir said. ?I think that the writing was on the wall, but we just didn't want to see it, we didn't want to face it."

One non-commissioned officer told Mr Zamir, himself a deputy battalion commander in the reserves, that the army ?fired a lot of rounds and killed a lot of people in order for us not to be injured or shot at.

"When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey? I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself ? how is this reasonable?"

The same unnamed NCO said that his commanding officer ordered soldiers on to a rooftop to shoot an old woman crossing a main street during the fighting, which a Palestinian rights groups said left 1,434 people dead, 960 of them civilians.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story,? the NCO said. ?I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out? It was cold-blooded murder."

Another NCO recounted a military blunder that led to a mother and her two children being shot dead by an Israeli sniper. "We had taken over the house? and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left? The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot? you can say he just did what he was told? he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them.

"I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them," the soldier said.

The soldiers? accounts were submitted anonymously at a meeting at the academy around a month ago. The Israel army said that it had started an investigation, but that this was the first time it had heard such testimony, despite having debriefed troops itself.

Breaking The Silence, an organisation of former soldiers who gather witness accounts from troops in the Palestinian territories, said that its own investigation into Operation Cast Lead, as the war was known in Israel, had revealed a similar picture of the fighting.

?It?s definitely in line with what we are hearing,? said one of the researchers.

Another disturbing element reported by the soldiers was the role of military rabbis in distributing booklets that framed the fighting as a religious war. ?All these articles had a clear message: we are the Jewish people, we have come to the land by miraculous means, and now we have to fight to remove the Gentiles who are getting in our way and preventing us from occupying the Holy Land? a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war,? said one soldier.

There were also accounts of soldiers being ordered to throw all the furniture out of Palestinians? homes as they were taken over.

?We simply threw everything out the windows to make room and order. The entire contents of the house flew out the windows: refrigerator, plates, furniture. The order was to remove the entire contents of the house.?
It's a good thing that the israeli soldiers who reported this had the conscience to do so.

Does Hamas have such moral limitation?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
571
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Craig234
This is sickening. To their credit, they at least have an investigative process we can only hope has soime honesty and does some good.

Unfortunately, the side here that almost undconditionally backs Israel will probably be mostly unaffected by the facts, continuing their demonization of Palestinians to justify it.
I'm not Pro Israel but wtf, how about Hamas, are they going to open up an investigation regarding their fighters killing innocent Israeli civilians? Also what's your opinion about all the innocent Palestinian civilians Hamas murdered in their power grab?
:thumbsup:
 

cultgag

Member
Aug 27, 2007
87
0
0
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: irishScott
I must also point out that if Hamas had held off on the rockets, none of this would have happened. They called down the thunder (for the... how many times are they up to now?) and apparently didn't expect something of this magnitude. Again. Morons.
Israel has broken many cease-fire agreements as well with their assassination of top leaders from various groups. Hamas is not the only instigator here, it's tit-for-tat.
Agreed. Most of us as Americans will never be able to understand this war. I feel for civilians of both sides caught up in this war.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Is anyone really surprised the Israelis do this? All they have to do is say "Look, the other side is much worse."
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Dari
Is anyone really surprised the Israelis do this? All they have to do is say "Look, the other side is much worse."
Every military/law enforcement will have some bad apples.

Conflict is uses as an excuse or a way to exhibit such behaivor.

The difference is: Is it a part of the training system or a few slip under the screeners.

 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Dari
Is anyone really surprised the Israelis do this? All they have to do is say "Look, the other side is much worse."
Every military/law enforcement will have some bad apples.

Conflict is uses as an excuse or a way to exhibit such behaivor.

The difference is: Is it a part of the training system or a few slip under the screeners.
In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not. Don't get me wrong, Israel is in a precarious situation with all those hostile peoples surrounding her. But I've seen enough to judge the Israeli military to be closer to her enemies when it comes to respecting the laws of war. Hell, they have a habit of killing American citizens too.

Add the fact that they also spy on my country (America), I will never visit Israel.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,268
3,802
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Glad to see the truth finally coming out. I think the only way the Israeli government will reform their murderous ways is if their own citizens hear these horror stories...unarmed women and children being ripped apart by Israeli sniper fire.
I'm glad we can all accept taking criminal incidents and using them to generalize an entire country. How about them Muslims?

Saying it's "their murderous ways" IS generalizing it to reflect the nation, is it not?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
571
126
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Atreus21
Originally posted by: Dari

In Israel's case, senior officers have to be forced to do investigations. This happens more often than not.
Which certainly can't be said for Hamas. They endorse the kind of violence that Israel must be forced to investigate.
It can't be a good day when an Israeli general is being compared to a Hamas fighter rather than someone like Gen. Petraeus. But this seems to be the expected response from those that defend these actions. Sad.

EDIT: And the Hamas men, just like Al Qaeda did with Bush, are luring Israel into committing these atrocities so they can be on the same footing. No commander of a reputable Army should fall for that.
 

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: jpeyton
The source of the article is The Times UK, an established UK daily (some consider it the paper of record for the UK). Are you trying to question the validity of the information in the article?
Most papers and news sources from GB have been biased against Israel for decades!
So if it was me I would say Hell YES!!! I am going to question the validity of your source!
Did it ever occur to you that the reason Israel takes a lot of flak from our media is because they deserve it? Perhaps it is your own media which is biased? I know which has the most to gain that's for sure...
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
18
81
Big picture, this is the aberration, not the norm. As opposed to the people they are fighting for whom this IS the goal. No argument, this is illegal behavior and needs to be addressed, never ignored. But the two sides are not equal.

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatla.../03/haaretz_expose.php

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not equating the morality of the IDF to that of Hamas. The goal of Hamas is to murder innocent people; the goal of the IDF is to avoid murdering innocent people. But when the IDF fails to achieve its goal, and ends up inflicting needless destruction and suffering, it sullies not only its own name, but the name of the Jewish state. It risks making a just cause -- Jewish nationhood -- seem unjust, and it ultimately endangers what it is supposed to protect.
 

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