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Israeli Concentration Camps... 7 Palestinian Fulbright Scholars may lose scholarships - trapped in their own country

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
2
0
[commentary]Nice of Israel to learn so well from The Nazis and Supremacists... Got to keep those Palestinians DOWN and POOR[/commentary]
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Inte...tory?id=4964329&page=1
Seven Palestinian scholars may lose their prized Fulbright scholarships to attend American universities because Israel won't let them out of the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians are clearly angry at Israel for its refusal to let them leave, but they are also annoyed at the United States for being unable to influence its Mideast ally Israel to crack open its Gaza blockade just enough to let the seven students and their books out of the area.

"I am so disappointed with the U.S.," Abdulrahman Abdullah told ABC News today from the town of Rafah in the Gaza Strip. "They say they want to help us create a Palestinian state by the end of the year, and they can't get me a visa? I can't believe it."

Israel has sealed the Gaza Strip because it is controlled by the militant group Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, and because the area is frequently used to launch missile attacks on Israeli border towns.

The border is opened only to allow in essential foods, medicine and oil
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
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Yeah, this is BS. I know quite a few friends of mine who are angry at this situation. Hopefully after the joke Olmert gets kicked out they can actually take a progressive path towards Palestine in letting the people who want to better themselves they tools to be able too.


Edit: Your title is misleading, and is akin to saying "All of America wants to kill every Muslim!". Israel has internal politics just as every country does and not everyone agrees with everything the government is doing (even less so because of the troubles surrounding Olmert).
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
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Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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I agree that this is complete bullshit... I hope to see someone (Rice?) step in and fix this.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
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Originally posted by: JS80
So why don't they just leave through Egypt?
From an article less biased and more informative article.

Egypt has also kept its one crossing with Gaza closed, but in January, Hamas militants blew up a stretch of the border wall and thousands of Palestinians flooded through the frontier. One of them was Abu Kawik's sister. Abu Kawik decided to stay, she said, because she was afraid that leaving Gaza illegally would jeopardize her chances of getting the scholarship.
And Israel closed the border not because Hamas is in power like the article claims. But because of attacks coming from people who cross the border and kill Israeli citizens.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Those concentration camps were created by the Arabs for the Palestinians.

And the militants want them to stay as such to justify their cause.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,118
3,656
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
[commentary]Nice of Israel to learn so well from The Nazis and Supremacists... Got to keep those Palestinians DOWN and POOR[/commentary]
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Inte...tory?id=4964329&page=1
Seven Palestinian scholars may lose their prized Fulbright scholarships to attend American universities because Israel won't let them out of the Gaza Strip.
That is the price their people pay for committing acts of war.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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The Palestinians would be so much better off if they would just stop fighting the Israelis and try to live peacefully. Their goal should be to try to become the next Japan by being model prisoners and doing what the Japanese did in the decades after World War II, but perhaps their IQ's aren't high enough to even attempt anything like that.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
We never vote against Israel and we give them 3x more free money than others.. I would say those actions are interventions or a sort... eh?
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
We never vote against Israel and we give them 3x more free money than others.. I would say those actions are interventions or a sort... eh?
In general theory perhaps, but that is not the case here.

To complain about interventionist foreign policy in a case in which we are not interfering seems a little off base.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dahunan
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
We never vote against Israel and we give them 3x more free money than others.. I would say those actions are interventions or a sort... eh?
In general theory perhaps, but that is not the case here.

To complain about interventionist foreign policy in a case in which we are not interfering seems a little off base.
Don't mind them, they are part of the Anything the United Stated of Israel does is wrong and is our fault team.

If you want to blame anyone, blame that moron Olmert. It's not like Bush called up the IDF and was all "lulz, keep em in dere, don't want no dirty arabs studying here! lulz"
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
Why should we have any say at all? We shouldn't have the kind of alliance with Israel that calls for the students to even ask us to intervene. And it has nothing to do with being anti-Israel, as I don't think we should have that kind of relationship with any country, and I especially don't think we should be handing out money to any of these countries either. I'm sorry, but our government was never meant to be a charity organization, and I don't think a lot of these countries need that money anyway.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - Jefferson
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
Why should we have any say at all? We shouldn't have the kind of alliance with Israel that calls for the students to even ask us to intervene. And it has nothing to do with being anti-Israel, as I don't think we should have that kind of relationship with any country, and I especially don't think we should be handing out money to any of these countries either. I'm sorry, but our government was never meant to be a charity organization, and I don't think a lot of these countries need that money anyway.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - Jefferson
You still ignored the question of how this resembles an interventionist policy in any way at all.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
Why should we have any say at all? We shouldn't have the kind of alliance with Israel that calls for the students to even ask us to intervene. And it has nothing to do with being anti-Israel, as I don't think we should have that kind of relationship with any country, and I especially don't think we should be handing out money to any of these countries either. I'm sorry, but our government was never meant to be a charity organization, and I don't think a lot of these countries need that money anyway.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - Jefferson
You still ignored the question of how this resembles an interventionist policy in any way at all.
No, I really didn't. See part in bold.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
What the hell are you talking about?

If we were to force Israel to let these guys leave THEN we would be interventionist. Instead we are doing nothing, which is what I thought you would want. Make up your mind.
Why should we have any say at all? We shouldn't have the kind of alliance with Israel that calls for the students to even ask us to intervene. And it has nothing to do with being anti-Israel, as I don't think we should have that kind of relationship with any country, and I especially don't think we should be handing out money to any of these countries either. I'm sorry, but our government was never meant to be a charity organization, and I don't think a lot of these countries need that money anyway.

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." - Jefferson
You still ignored the question of how this resembles an interventionist policy in any way at all.
No, I really didn't. See part in bold.
Well that has nothing to do with the OP :confused: , and you've already made your stance clear in the hundreds of anti-Isral threads that have graced these forums. So in other words you have no real reason on how this is the US's fault but wanted the chance to bitch about Israel some more?

The students asking the US to intervene is not representative of the US policy with Israel, but representative of the US being the country offering the scholarships.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Oh, I posted in anti-Israeli threads? :confused:

If you can find anything I have said here at ATPN that was anti-Israel, I'd be really surprised.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Oh, I posted in anti-Israeli threads? :confused:

If you can find anything I have said here at ATPN that was anti-Israel, I'd be really surprised.
Still ignoring the fact you have yet to actually show why the OPs story was the result of interventionist strategy. :roll:
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: bamacre
Oh, I posted in anti-Israeli threads? :confused:

If you can find anything I have said here at ATPN that was anti-Israel, I'd be really surprised.
Still ignoring the fact you have yet to actually show why the OPs story was the result of interventionist strategy. :roll:
Yeah, I will have to concede that my original point here was off base.

But, I stand by the fact that our relationship with not only Israel but other countries as well is, in the long run, harmful to our country. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being friends and trading with others, but entangling alliances get us in trouble more than they are a benefit.
 

punchkin

Banned
Dec 13, 2007
852
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
[commentary]Nice of Israel to learn so well from The Nazis and Supremacists... Got to keep those Palestinians DOWN and POOR[/commentary]
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Inte...tory?id=4964329&page=1
Seven Palestinian scholars may lose their prized Fulbright scholarships to attend American universities because Israel won't let them out of the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians are clearly angry at Israel for its refusal to let them leave, but they are also annoyed at the United States for being unable to influence its Mideast ally Israel to crack open its Gaza blockade just enough to let the seven students and their books out of the area.

"I am so disappointed with the U.S.," Abdulrahman Abdullah told ABC News today from the town of Rafah in the Gaza Strip. "They say they want to help us create a Palestinian state by the end of the year, and they can't get me a visa? I can't believe it."

Israel has sealed the Gaza Strip because it is controlled by the militant group Hamas, which refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist, and because the area is frequently used to launch missile attacks on Israeli border towns.

The border is opened only to allow in essential foods, medicine and oil
I guess you missed the part where you're a CRAZY NUTJOB for comparing Israel to the Nazis, for failure to lift a military blockade due to the plight of several students in an AREA CONTROLLED BY A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
This is a real tear-jerker and sad, but the palestinians need to understand that Jews are paranoid about their security and won't let anyone attack them and get away with it. The Palestinians need to get rid of both Hamas and fatah, or Hamas just needs to modernize its policies towards Israel.
 
Nov 3, 2004
10,491
22
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: bamacre
Oh, I posted in anti-Israeli threads? :confused:

If you can find anything I have said here at ATPN that was anti-Israel, I'd be really surprised.
Still ignoring the fact you have yet to actually show why the OPs story was the result of interventionist strategy. :roll:
Now people resent the USA because they EXPECT us to be able to intervene in Israeli policy because of our interventionist policies
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: bamacre
Oh, I posted in anti-Israeli threads? :confused:

If you can find anything I have said here at ATPN that was anti-Israel, I'd be really surprised.
Still ignoring the fact you have yet to actually show why the OPs story was the result of interventionist strategy. :roll:
Now people resent the USA because they EXPECT us to be able to intervene in Israeli policy because of our interventionist policies
Except they expected the US to intervene because the US gave them the scholarships...
 

DerekWilson

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2003
2,921
4
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Just another example of our interventionist foreign policy that leads to more resentment towards the USA.
Check -- to further explain ... they couldn't be pissed at the US if we didn't pump money and soldiers into their country and if we adopted a policy of letting every nation act in her own best interest. It would make any sense to expect us to be able to do something, even if we are the ones that granted the scholarships (aside from maybe extending the timeframe to be considerate of a special circumstance) if we were not involved.

That's not to say that Americans who supported other countries cultures or groups couldn't send money or physically go and get involved ... in fact, those methods of support are more effective in bringing about a desired result anyway.

It's just that government involvement implies consent and support of the entirety of the American people (both as an elected body and because of the Logan Act), doesn't often accomplish the goals it sets out to accomplish, and is giving away our tax dollars to both sides of many conflicts helping to escalate aggression rather than forcing nations to focus on their own well being by removing the crutch of foreign aid.

This is as true of the Palestinian and Israeli conflict as any other: we pump money into Israel and into other nations that support militant Palestinian organizations (thus indirectly funding them).

...
...

To take a step back, Israel should have every right to do what Israel thinks is necessary to defend itself -- of course it should be encouraged to act in a reasonable and humane fashion at the same time.

It is a crappy situation, but we shouldn't get involved. And it's good that we aren't in this situation. But the tension that is revealed when Palestinians call for US intervention comes from the fact that we often take the opportunity to involve ourselves in the business of other nations.

Our refusal to get involved is not a matter of policy -- it is a simple choice not to help these people when we are able to exert influence over Israel, have done so in the past, and do not now. This should /not/ be how it is. We should not have the discretion to get involved or not as we see fit -- we should leave internal affairs of other nations to those other nations.

As pertains to the OP, I'm not a fan of oppression either. But Israel and Palestinians are a tough group to arbitrate, and Israel can choose to do what it likes -- even if you disagree I would disagree with anyone who says America needs to get involved.

As I said, what America can (and probably should) do is extend some consideration to the students and not let this situation cause them to lose their Fulbright scholarships.

As for others going back and forth with bamacre on this ... I don't think he's saying that the situation in the Gaza strip has been caused by American interventionism. I think what he is saying is that the quote demonstrating Palestinian disappointment with the US not getting involved can only be justified because the US maintains a policy of interventionism, and further that this is a bad thing because it pisses people off when we don't use our discretion to get involved in their local crisis. This DOES relate to the OP (despite bamacre himself incorrectly stating that his original point was off base) because the OP contains a quote showing how upset the inhabitants of the Gaza strip can get at America because of our foreign policy in spite of the fact that Israel can and should be ultimately and exclusively responsible for its internal affairs.

A policy of non-intervention would make this not a choice on America's part not to get involved (as we are choosing currently), but a matter of policy. Making it a matter of administrative discretion is dangerous because whether or not we show favoritism to one country or another we open ourselves to appear to favor one country or another. This degrades our national security by pissing off everyone (everyone always feels like they are getting the short end of the stick) and can serve well to inspire the cause of depraved individuals who support the use of terrorism.

the comment on how this demonstrates the lack in our foreign policy is valid wrt the OP not because our foreign policy caused the problem but because it is very clear in the quote just how our foreign policy makes other's expect us to behave (that we should intervene and if we do not it is only choice and acquiescence), and that because of that expectation, when we choose not to intervene in a particular situation, we deeply hurt and anger people.

Except they expected the US to intervene because the US gave them the scholarships...
Actually, I doubt that is true ... As I mentioned above, the US could easily extend some consideration in this case by not allowing the scholarships to be revoked until the situation is resolved and the students can make it back. Why did the Palestinians not go here first? Because our interventionist policies encourage people to think that we can and should get involved in these situations.

If the concern was really for the students and we hadn't encourage people to rely on our interventionism, then the call would be on America to treat the students with consideration not to change Israel's policies no matter how good or bad they may be.
 

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