Israel

[replicator]

It isn't only that it is a holy land for both the Arabs and the Jews.

You need to take into consideration the living conditions of Palestinians under Israeli occupation.

They live in terrible conditions of poverty. They are subject to roadblocks and security checkpoints when they go to visit their relatives a few miles over. They aren't allowed to use the Highways, since they are only reserved for the settlers and Jews. Add to the operations by the IDF that have left many of innocent palestians dead, including hundreds of children.

That is what they grow up to. It is a focal point in the middle-east that drives hatred towards Israel and by association, the United States, who supply them with billions of dollars per year that is then spent on arms from US suppliers.

The injustice there just feeds the hatred of extremists and terrorists all over the world.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
The US gets blamed for everything Israel does....that is the only reason I care about it.

No, the US gets blamed for SUPPORTING Israel in everything Israel does, there is a difference.

Now Sharon (a well known terrorist) has decided NOT to give back some of the occupied land and the US applauds him.

Justice and law means nothing if you have the firepower to subdue those who protest.

Then, Israel can always say "see, we gave them back a lot of land, they are still attacking" and the US will of course support Israel when they bomb yet another civilian neighbourhood.

The TRUTH doesn't matter in this case, because the TRUTH is that 98000 of the 200000 Israelis gets to keep their occupied land. This is definently NOT a step towards peace and the US support means that US has given up on the peace plan.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Another reason it's important to Arabs is because of Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa mosque is the third most sacred place in Islam, the fact that it belongs to Israel does not sit well with them. But as Romans et al will tell you, its ONLY because Arabs hate Jews.

Arabs cannot tolerate the idea of a Jewish political entity in their geographical sphere because of the Muslim presumption to dominion over other groups.

To maintain the hatred of the Palestinian refugees against Israel, Arab propaganists invented a pedigree for them that was tied to the land

Yup, them pesky Muslims with their constant dreams of world domination... Can't be that Israel treats the Palestinians worse than animals, or the Jerusalem issue you blatantly ignored. Or the fact that to this day Isreal keeps stealing Palestinian land. No, has to be them Muslims.

Do some research about how the Jordanians treated the Palestinians. They have been treated far better by the Jews.

The Qur?an places Jews under Allah?s curse. This idea recurs in the Qur?an, which also says that Allah turned the Jews into detested beasts: "Say: ?O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?? Say: ?Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil; these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!?" (Sura 5:60).

Muslim radicals today routinely echo this language. Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi of the Palestinian Authority declared recently that Jews are "the enemies of Allah, the nation accursed in Allah?s book. Allah described [them] as apes and pigs."

 

[replicator]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Another reason it's important to Arabs is because of Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa mosque is the third most sacred place in Islam, the fact that it belongs to Israel does not sit well with them. But as Romans et al will tell you, its ONLY because Arabs hate Jews.

Arabs cannot tolerate the idea of a Jewish political entity in their geographical sphere because of the Muslim presumption to dominion over other groups.

To maintain the hatred of the Palestinian refugees against Israel, Arab propaganists invented a pedigree for them that was tied to the land

Yup, them pesky Muslims with their constant dreams of world domination... Can't be that Israel treats the Palestinians worse than animals, or the Jerusalem issue you blatantly ignored. Or the fact that to this day Isreal keeps stealing Palestinian land. No, has to be them Muslims.

Do some research about how the Jordanians treated the Palestinians. They have been treated far better by the Jews.

The Qur?an places Jews under Allah?s curse. This idea recurs in the Qur?an, which also says that Allah turned the Jews into detested beasts: "Say: ?O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?? Say: ?Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil; these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!?" (Sura 5:60).

Muslim radicals today routinely echo this language. Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi of the Palestinian Authority declared recently that Jews are "the enemies of Allah, the nation accursed in Allah?s book. Allah described [them] as apes and pigs."

What is that quote from the Quran supposed to prove? There are tons of things you can take from the talmud, or even that bible, that would be seemingly very hateful against other religions.

"Yebamoth 98a (pp.670-671). All Gentile children are animals."


What does this prove? That things can be taken out of context.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: replicator
It isn't only that it is a holy land for both the Arabs and the Jews.

You need to take into consideration the living conditions of Palestinians under Israeli occupation.

They live in terrible conditions of poverty. They are subject to roadblocks and security checkpoints when they go to visit their relatives a few miles over. They aren't allowed to use the Highways, since they are only reserved for the settlers and Jews. Add to the operations by the IDF that have left many of innocent palestians dead, including hundreds of children.

That is what they grow up to. It is a focal point in the middle-east that drives hatred towards Israel and by association, the United States, who supply them with billions of dollars per year that is then spent on arms from US suppliers.

The injustice there just feeds the hatred of extremists and terrorists all over the world.

Ever wonder why there are Palestinian refugees?

In 1947, before the vote to partition, there were 809,000 Palestinians. In 1949, after the war, there were 160,000 Arabs living in Israel. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ? 472,000. A second refugee population was created in 1967 after the war.

No mention is made of Jewish refugees who were forced out of Arab countries often with little more than the clothes on their back most of who were absorbed Israel.

Interestingly, Jordan was the only Arab country to welcome the Palestinians and grant them citizenship (to this day Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians as a group can become citizens). King Abdullah considered the Palestinian Arabs and Jordanians one people.

Why weren't the Palestinian refugees absorbed by their Arab neighbors?

One reason for maintaining this position was the conviction that the refugees could ultimately bring about Israel's destruction, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din:

It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel (Al-Misri, October 11, 1949).

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: replicator

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
Another reason it's important to Arabs is because of Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa mosque is the third most sacred place in Islam, the fact that it belongs to Israel does not sit well with them. But as Romans et al will tell you, its ONLY because Arabs hate Jews.

Arabs cannot tolerate the idea of a Jewish political entity in their geographical sphere because of the Muslim presumption to dominion over other groups.

To maintain the hatred of the Palestinian refugees against Israel, Arab propaganists invented a pedigree for them that was tied to the land

Yup, them pesky Muslims with their constant dreams of world domination... Can't be that Israel treats the Palestinians worse than animals, or the Jerusalem issue you blatantly ignored. Or the fact that to this day Isreal keeps stealing Palestinian land. No, has to be them Muslims.

Do some research about how the Jordanians treated the Palestinians. They have been treated far better by the Jews.

The Qur?an places Jews under Allah?s curse. This idea recurs in the Qur?an, which also says that Allah turned the Jews into detested beasts: "Say: ?O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?? Say: ?Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil; these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!?" (Sura 5:60).

Muslim radicals today routinely echo this language. Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi of the Palestinian Authority declared recently that Jews are "the enemies of Allah, the nation accursed in Allah?s book. Allah described [them] as apes and pigs."

What is that quote from the Quran supposed to prove? There are tons of things you can take from the talmud, or even that bible, that would be seemingly very hateful against other religions.

"Yebamoth 98a (pp.670-671). All Gentile children are animals."


What does this prove? That things can be taken out of context.

It proves the Muslim worldview of Christians and Jews and backs up my statement that Muslims seek dominion over non-Muslims.

The Qur?an also teaches that both Jews and Christians have incurred the curse of Allah (cf. Sura 5:60 and many others) for their refusal to receive Muhammad as a legitimate prophet and his Qur?an as a book from Allah.

Non-Muslim's living in Mulsim countries must by a poll tax (jizya).

The jizya is a special levy on non-Muslims, whose higher tax rates contributed much to the magnificent Islamic empires of old. It is not the Sharia?s only restriction on non-Muslims: according to classic Islamic law, non-Muslims in an Islamic state "are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar); are not greeted with "as-Salamu ?alaykum" [the standard Muslim greeting, "Peace be with you"]; must keep to the side of the street; may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims? buildings, though if they acquire a tall house, it is not razed; are forbidden to openly display wine or pork, . . . recite the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals and feastdays; and are forbidden to build new churches."

 

[replicator]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: replicator
It isn't only that it is a holy land for both the Arabs and the Jews.

You need to take into consideration the living conditions of Palestinians under Israeli occupation.

They live in terrible conditions of poverty. They are subject to roadblocks and security checkpoints when they go to visit their relatives a few miles over. They aren't allowed to use the Highways, since they are only reserved for the settlers and Jews. Add to the operations by the IDF that have left many of innocent palestians dead, including hundreds of children.

That is what they grow up to. It is a focal point in the middle-east that drives hatred towards Israel and by association, the United States, who supply them with billions of dollars per year that is then spent on arms from US suppliers.

The injustice there just feeds the hatred of extremists and terrorists all over the world.

Ever wonder why there are Palestinian refugees?

In 1947, before the vote to partition, there were 809,000 Palestinians. In 1949, after the war, there were 160,000 Arabs living in Israel. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ? 472,000. A second refugee population was created in 1967 after the war.

There are Palestinian refugees because they had their land taken by Israel. Why should it be the responsibility of the other Arab nations to take up the economic and social burdens and give Israel free reign over the occupied terrorities? I think it is stated quite clear in international law that it is Israel, the occupier, who has the responsibility of withdrawing from land they grabbed after the war.

 

[Riprorin]

There are Palestinian refugees because they had their land taken by Israel. Why should it be the responsibility of the other Arab nations to take up the economic and social burdens and give Israel free reign over the occupied terrorities? I think it is stated quite clear in international law that it is Israel, the occupier, who has the responsibility of withdrawing from land they grabbed after the war.

Since Arab leader provoked the exodus, shouldn't they have accepted the refugees?

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: replicator

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: replicator
It isn't only that it is a holy land for both the Arabs and the Jews.

You need to take into consideration the living conditions of Palestinians under Israeli occupation.

They live in terrible conditions of poverty. They are subject to roadblocks and security checkpoints when they go to visit their relatives a few miles over. They aren't allowed to use the Highways, since they are only reserved for the settlers and Jews. Add to the operations by the IDF that have left many of innocent palestians dead, including hundreds of children.

That is what they grow up to. It is a focal point in the middle-east that drives hatred towards Israel and by association, the United States, who supply them with billions of dollars per year that is then spent on arms from US suppliers.

The injustice there just feeds the hatred of extremists and terrorists all over the world.

Ever wonder why there are Palestinian refugees?

In 1947, before the vote to partition, there were 809,000 Palestinians. In 1949, after the war, there were 160,000 Arabs living in Israel. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure ? 472,000. A second refugee population was created in 1967 after the war.

There are Palestinian refugees because they had their land taken by Israel. Why should it be the responsibility of the other Arab nations to take up the economic and social burdens and give Israel free reign over the occupied terrorities? I think it is stated quite clear in international law that it is Israel, the occupier, who has the responsibility of withdrawing from land they grabbed after the war.

but with Israels UN veto'ing power bed buddy the United States of Busherica, they needn't worry about such trivial international laws. Afterall they don't apply to the USA and Israel. And we wonder why we are so loved the world over

 

[0roo0roo]

its just a continuation of an age old scape goating. convenient for those in power in corrupt states. oh blame the jews... don't concentrate on what matters to you and your children under your own government.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its just a continuation of an age old scape goating. convenient for those in power in corrupt states. oh blame the jews... don't concentrate on what matters to you and your children under your own government.

What government, what state? there is no Palestinian state or country, as long as Israel occupies part of a would be palestinian coutnry there will never be, and as long as they do, Palestinians have the right to attack to get them out of there.

When the Israelis have made a complete withdrawal from all occupied territories i will see the Israelis as true to their word and non-hostile, i will support international efforts to make sure peace is kept if neccessary then, as of now, the Israelis occupy land that isn't theirs and that is against international law.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its just a continuation of an age old scape goating. convenient for those in power in corrupt states. oh blame the jews... don't concentrate on what matters to you and your children under your own government.

What government, what state? there is no Palestinian state or country, as long as Israel occupies part of a would be palestinian coutnry there will never be, and as long as they do, Palestinians have the right to attack to get them out of there.

When the Israelis have made a complete withdrawal from all occupied territories i will see the Israelis as true to their word and non-hostile, i will support international efforts to make sure peace is kept if neccessary then, as of now, the Israelis occupy land that isn't theirs and that is against international law.

thats funny... since b4 1967 they weren't occupying the westbank and gaza, those were under jordan and egypt. yet there wasn't strong calls for independence from those two countries, let alone terrorism against them. no, it was against israel. they don't want a state, they want all the land. there was NO peace. the fact that they supported several wars against israel and lost.. well thats lost on them apparently. they still want ALL the land. never has a people lost 3 wars got to dictate its borders. let alone ones who sided with hitler and the evil empire. look at germany. east germany is now part of poland. parts of west germany.. france. oh we should have those countries give it back right!!??

as for true to their word? the plo's official charter was never changed to even recognize a state of israel of any kind. let alone hamas who has a mission to destroy all of israel. these are the honest brokers of peace israel has to deal with.

 

[Riprorin]

but with Israels UN veto'ing power bed buddy the United States of Busherica, they needn't worry about such trivial international laws. Afterall they don't apply to the USA and Israel. And we wonder why we are so loved the world over

Since you appear to worship the UN, explain these points to me and maybe I'll become a believer too:

-The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

-Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429
were directed against Israel.

-The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by
the Jordanians.

-The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated
the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

-The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like
policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
Wall.

-Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP
ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its just a continuation of an age old scape goating. convenient for those in power in corrupt states. oh blame the jews... don't concentrate on what matters to you and your children under your own government.

What government, what state? there is no Palestinian state or country, as long as Israel occupies part of a would be palestinian coutnry there will never be, and as long as they do, Palestinians have the right to attack to get them out of there.

When the Israelis have made a complete withdrawal from all occupied territories i will see the Israelis as true to their word and non-hostile, i will support international efforts to make sure peace is kept if neccessary then, as of now, the Israelis occupy land that isn't theirs and that is against international law.

thats funny... since b4 1967 they weren't occupying the westbank and gaza, those were under jordan and egypt. yet there wasn't strong calls for independence from those two countries, let alone terrorism against them. no, it was against israel. they don't want a state, they want all the land. there was NO peace. the fact that they supported several wars against israel and lost.. well thats lost on them apparently. they still want ALL the land. never has a people lost 3 wars got to dictate its borders. let alone ones who sided with hitler and the evil empire. look at germany. east germany is now part of poland. parts of west germany.. france. oh we should have those countries give it back right!!??

as for true to their word? the plo's official charter was never changed to even recognize a state of israel of any kind. let alone hamas who has a mission to destroy all of israel. these are the honest brokers of peace israel has to deal with.

Look at the employment rate, the per capita income, the number of universities and hospital, etc. under Jordanian occupation versus under Israeli occupation. Palestinians are treated better by Jews that their own people!

I recall that Israel wanted to move Palestinians living in squalid conditions in Gaza into better housing and they were BLOCKED by the UN.I wish I could recall the resolution number.

The "Palestinians" are fodder for Arabs who are hell-bent on destroying Israel.

 

[rickn]

When did I say worshop the UN? As a whole, I think it's a very ineffective group, but it's all we got. And the UN does do good work in other areas.

The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council

oh I know. the non-permanent members pass resolutions against Israel all the time. Once the resolutions gets to the permanent members of the security counsel, the US vetos, the rest abstain.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: rickn
When did I say worshop the UN? As a whole, I think it's a very ineffective group, but it's all we got. And the UN does do good work in other areas.

The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council

oh I know. the non-permanent members pass resolutions against Israel all the time. Once the resolutions gets to the permanent members of the security counsel, the US vetos, the rest abstain.

The historical record shows that the U.S. has often opposed Israel in the Council.

By the way, Israel is America's most reliable UN ally: Israel voted with the U.S. 92.6 percent of the time in 2002, behind only Palau and the Marshall Islands, and outpacing the support levels of major U.S. allies such as Great Britain, France and Canada by more than 30 percent.

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: rickn
When did I say worshop the UN? As a whole, I think it's a very ineffective group, but it's all we got. And the UN does do good work in other areas.

The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council

oh I know. the non-permanent members pass resolutions against Israel all the time. Once the resolutions gets to the permanent members of the security counsel, the US vetos, the rest abstain.

The historical record shows that the U.S. has often opposed Israel in the Council.

pin pricks.

 

[Gaard]

Let me go OT for just a moment please...

-The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

Holy cow! Is that true Rip? I was just thinking as I read this that, according to Dari, any Article VII resolution (that's any resolution passed by the Security Council and not the General Assembly) is enforceable by force from any UN member, even if every other UN member is against it.

 

[rickn]

there are the 5 permanent members, 15 non-permanent members, the rest is the general assembly, resolutions passed by the 6 permanent members are to be enforced by all members of the security council. there was never 97 resolutions passed against Israel by the permanent members, thus the resolutions are effectively killed.

*edited for mistake, 5 permanent members*

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: rickn
there are the 5 permanent members, 15 non-permanent members, the rest is the general assembly, resolutions passed by the 6 permanent members are to be enforced by all members of the security council. there was never 97 resolutions passed against Israel by the permanent members, thus the resolutions are effectively killed.

*edited for mistake, 5 permanent members*

Are you sure about this? If that were the case, there'd be no reason to give the non-permanent members a vote, right?

 

[rickn]

I yanked this from the UN website

****
Each Council member has one vote. Decisions on procedural matters are made by an affirmative vote of at least nine of the 15 members. Decisions onsubstantive matters require nine votes, including the concurring votes of all five permanent members. This is the rule of "great Power unanimity", often referred to as the "veto" power

Under the Charter, all Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council. While other organs of the United Nations make recommendations to Governments, the Council alone has the power to take decisions which Member States are obligated under the Charter to carry out.
****

my numbers were messed up, there are 15 total security council members

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: chess9
Ok, rip, steal a few acres in Manhattan then if it isn't significant.

-Robert

actually the vast majority of america was "stolen" however, it does not stop some americans from telling others not to "steal" land though...and the historical fact the jews had the land before arabs did is somehow inconsequential.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

but with Israels UN veto'ing power bed buddy the United States of Busherica, they needn't worry about such trivial international laws. Afterall they don't apply to the USA and Israel. And we wonder why we are so loved the world over

Since you appear to worship the UN, explain these points to me and maybe I'll become a believer too:

-The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

-Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429
were directed against Israel.

-The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by
the Jordanians.

-The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated
the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

-The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like
policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western
Wall.

-Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP
ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL

yup, its called 1 billion + muslims and their countries..some very very oil rich countries to boot throwing their weight around against 6 million jews the un is just a forum...