Israel warns Hamas after rocket fire

[Lemon law]

Hamas is simple the Palestinian answer to Israeli terrorists and Robber Barrons, On the other hand Fatah, in the West Bank are the good nonviolent Uncle Tom Palestinians who hope to be rewarded for their virtues.

So at least we can credit the Pales for trying the good guy and the bad guy thing, they are trying both.

Now riddle us this, in the real world which of the two, Dr. Jeckle or Mr. Hyde does Israel like best, and which Palestinian behavior will result in a better future life? Will that better life be gained by the non violent Pal or the violent Pal Strategy?

Don't we all wish we could answer that in the affirmative for the non violent Palestinians, but when the real unavoidable current experience answer is, the Pals are fucked either way, we gotta ask, what does Israel want and will we ever make any progress towards just mid-east peace without demanding Israel get real.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Hamas is simple the Palestinian answer to Israeli terrorists and Robber Barrons, On the other hand Fatah, in the West Bank are the good nonviolent Uncle Tom Palestinians who hope to be rewarded for their virtues.

So at least we can credit the Pales for trying the good guy and the bad guy thing, they are trying both.

Now riddle us this, in the real world which of the two, Dr. Jeckle or Mr. Hyde does Israel like best, and which Palestinian behavior will result in a better future life? Will that better life be gained by the non violent Pal or the violent Pal Strategy?

Don't we all wish we could answer that in the affirmative for the non violent Palestinians, but when the real unavoidable current experience answer is, the Pals are fucked either way, we gotta ask, what does Israel want and will we ever make any progress towards just mid-east peace without demanding Israel get real.

In your case an attempt to answer this honestly; is no answer at all....
You don`t answer a question or even a series of question by trying to reverse the questions.....

You and I both know that the Palestinians fucked themselves by electing Hamas as their government! We also both know that niether Fatah nor Hamas can control the fringe groups that want no peace!
We also know that no Arab country will admit it, but other countries have their hands in this whole mess and would try to subvert any sort of peace agreement.
We also know that the United Nations is powerless to do anything about this small band of terrorists or some would call freedom fighters who owe no allegiance to anybody and thus cannot be controlled!

So please answer my question without your usual boo hoo for the Palestinians....

 

[EagleKeeper]

Above is a question that I posed over a month ago. I have included it again in detailed key issues so the rose colored glasses may come off.

Who can speak for the Palestinians and ensure that any agreement will be upheld?

How does one handle the proxie masters?

Do you expect that Hamas will honor any Fatah agreement?

What about Hezbollah in Lebanon - plan on ignoring them also?

What should Israel's responses be if the Palestinian's can not keep their end of the agreement which is expect to include no munitions being launched into Israel.

Do they treat each faction differently?

 

[Lemon law]

EK, you ask the wrong question and get the wrong answer, because nothing can guarantee any nation immunity from outside attack.

However for most nations, being attacked is not a real worry because their neighbors harbor no ill will towards them.

Israel on the other hand has earned the hatreds of ALL of its neighbors and 96% of 275 million Arabs hate Israel's guts. Initially it could be dismissed as part Arab nimby and part Arab anti-Semiticism, but at this point, we must also realize Israel is not only earning regional hatreds, but international condemnation as well. And that is the situation in 2010.

What about the longer term future for Israel? Will Israel rely on only fear of retaliation to deter aggression? That Israeli strategy may partially deter a surrounding Arab State, Hamas, or Hezbollah, but after 62 years of trying, Israel still experiences annoyance threat attacks on a constant basis, and also inspires others to keep the attackers funded. But the Israeli strategy of retaliation fails horribly with two types of entities. (1) The Stateless terrorists who wins if they can induce Israel to attack others for attacks they caused from another States territory. (2) External Status quo powers like Russia, China, the USA, and others who deal in the mid-east.
Most of them have far more military power than Israel, have bigger nuclear arsenals, and the missiles to deliver them at larger distances than anything in the Israeli arsenal. They don't fear Israel in any way, but when Israel keeps stirring up tensions in the mid-east, all of them are gradually realizing its time to muzzle the Israeli pitt bull before some mid-east war erupts and screws everyone. The larger world is invested in a just mid-east peace, and if Israel is that roadblock, its time to remove the Israeli road block.

But now lets ask, if we do form a Palestinian State, will attacks on Israel totally cease from within that Palestinian State. At the same time, we can't guarantee Israel won't stop its long standing aggression on its Arab neighbors either. But we can station peacekeeping troops and hope the aggression and hatreds dies down over time. And in most cases, that is what happens anyway, anywhere in the world.
After Apartheid ended in South Africa, we could have had a black on white bloodbath and avoided it, the former war torn Vietnams are unified and peaceful, and as aggression and violence is replaced with beating swords into plowshares, most peoples are happy to take the peace dividend. Why should Israel be any different?

Remove the reasons for the hatreds and violence, and the violence stops. Its been a constant through Human history.

 

[MotF Bane]

Israel on the other hand has earned the hatreds of ALL of its neighbors and 96% of 275 million Arabs hate Israel's guts. Initially it could be dismissed as part Arab nimby and part Arab anti-Semiticism, but at this point, we must also realize Israel is not only earning regional hatreds, but international condemnation as well. And that is the situation in 2010.

Yeah, existing earns hatred.

 

[Lemon law]

Yeah, existing earns hatred.

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Will you be happier if I said Israel keeps building up and up existing the hatreds, its the same thing. Fear never inspires love or acceptance. As everyone and their brother in law searches for other ways to skin the Israeli cat, eventually their best and brightest will find effective other ways.

 

[EagleKeeper]

EK, you ask the wrong question and get the wrong answer, because nothing can guarantee any nation immunity from outside attack.

However for most nations, being attacked is not a real worry because their neighbors harbor no ill will towards them.

Israel on the other hand has earned the hatreds of ALL of its neighbors and 96% of 275 million Arabs hate Israel's guts. Initially it could be dismissed as part Arab nimby and part Arab anti-Semiticism, but at this point, we must also realize Israel is not only earning regional hatreds, but international condemnation as well. And that is the situation in 2010.

What about the longer term future for Israel? Will Israel rely on only fear of retaliation to deter aggression? That Israeli strategy may partially deter a surrounding Arab State, Hamas, or Hezbollah, but after 62 years of trying, Israel still experiences annoyance threat attacks on a constant basis, and also inspires others to keep the attackers funded. But the Israeli strategy of retaliation fails horribly with two types of entities. (1) The Stateless terrorists who wins if they can induce Israel to attack others for attacks they caused from another States territory. (2) External Status quo powers like Russia, China, the USA, and others who deal in the mid-east.
Most of them have far more military power than Israel, have bigger nuclear arsenals, and the missiles to deliver them at larger distances than anything in the Israeli arsenal. They don't fear Israel in any way, but when Israel keeps stirring up tensions in the mid-east, all of them are gradually realizing its time to muzzle the Israeli pitt bull before some mid-east war erupts and screws everyone. The larger world is invested in a just mid-east peace, and if Israel is that roadblock, its time to remove the Israeli road block.

But now lets ask, if we do form a Palestinian State, will attacks on Israel totally cease from within that Palestinian State. At the same time, we can't guarantee Israel won't stop its long standing aggression on its Arab neighbors either. But we can station peacekeeping troops and hope the aggression and hatreds dies down over time. And in most cases, that is what happens anyway, anywhere in the world.
After Apartheid ended in South Africa, we could have had a black on white bloodbath and avoided it, the former war torn Vietnams are unified and peaceful, and as aggression and violence is replaced with beating swords into plowshares, most peoples are happy to take the peace dividend. Why should Israel be any different?

Remove the reasons for the hatreds and violence, and the violence stops. Its been a constant through Human history.

1) What agression does Israel have against her neighbors that has not been provoked. Israel has had to be on the defensive since day one from attacks by the Arab nations and the Palestinians.

2) A state is responsible for what happens within it's borders. Granted Hamas wants to have it both ways and Lebanon is scared stiff.

3) International condimnation is from those that are spoon fed from the media without having to walk a mmile in those shoes. Few live with the threat of a missle of suicide bomber and have sworn enemies planning their death living across the street

However, you are choosing again to avoid the hard questions - passing the onus onto Israel

 

[Lemon law]

As EK accuse me by saying, "However, you are choosing again to avoid the hard questions - passing the onus onto Israel" My reaction is that its a case of EK doing the same.

The point being EK, can Israeli maintain their present military hegemony forever? The only reason Israel is able to have that hegemony now is Uncle Sucker subsidizing Israel. But with a population weight disadvantage of 275 v 5.5, and all the weight of Arab money the Arabs have and Israel does not, can Israel win any future arms race in the mid-east? Worse yet, Iran has developed quite a bit of home grown arms manufacturing ability, while Israel may have turned Turkey from a friend to an enemy. Its also my understanding that Egypt and other mid-east countries will acquire approved nuclear reactors, and with a reactor, a friendly or unfriendly government can extract plutonium from spent fuel rods to make nuclear weapons. And even if Israel may be able to stop or delay Iran from acquiring and using nuclear reactors, how much longer before a terrorist group like Al-Quda gets a hold of a loose nuke.

IF Israel chooses to be mid-east asshole number one, Israel makes it self target #1.
And also risks igniting an Arab arms race Israel can't possibly match over time. And if Israel choose to define their situation as the strongest calls the tune, as soon as the military hegemony shifts to the Arabs, why should the Arabs not push all the Jews into the sea?

It strikes me that the best Israeli scenario is to become a nation with defined border everyone respects, and at peace with its neighbors. And instead, Israel is moving away from that at a time when Israel's negotiating position will never in future be as strong as it is now. And with world guarantees from the USA and other nations, and Arab State would have to be crazy to break a future peace and attack Israel.

Look at what happened to Kuwait, crazy Saddam dared to attack it, but where is Saddam now? But Kuwait is still there.

Or we can look at it another way, if Israel relies on military hegemony only, its totally certain that they will lose everything, the only question is how many more years can they hold out.

But if Israel acts more friendly and helps a future Palestinian State form, there is an excellent chance that Israel can become an accepted and valuable part of the mid-east.

 

[EagleKeeper]

above is a question that i posed over a month ago. I have included it again in detailed key issues so the rose colored glasses may come off.

Who can speak for the palestinians and ensure that any agreement will be upheld?

How does one handle the proxie masters?

Do you expect that hamas will honor any fatah agreement?

What about hezbollah in lebanon - plan on ignoring them also?

What should israel's responses be if the palestinian's can not keep their end of the agreement which is expect to include no munitions being launched into israel.

Do they treat each faction differently?

again

 

[BoberFett]

Maybe it's just me and my desire for simplicity, but wouldn't the best option just be Muslims and Jews living as neighbors? Why can't we all just get along?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Maybe it's just me and my desire for simplicity, but wouldn't the best option just be Muslims and Jews living as neighbors? Why can't we all just get along?

Egos of the Arabs and Palestinians that want revenge for their mistakes.

Many are willing - but you have the troublemakers that make it difficult. Then you have people that are pressured to support the troublemakers.
It is easier for them to play ostrich.

 

[Jhhnn]

Egos of the Arabs and Palestinians that want revenge for their mistakes.

Many are willing - but you have the troublemakers that make it difficult. Then you have people that are pressured to support the troublemakers.
It is easier for them to play ostrich.

Oh, please. The other side of the story is that the Israelis refuse to rein in the settler faction, insist on taking more of what they covet, what little the pals still have. They want more. They're not done yet. They'll take until there's nothing left to take, if they can. Slowly and methodically, with no regard for the notion of peace at all.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Oh, please. The other side of the story is that the Israelis refuse to rein in the settler faction, insist on taking more of what they covet, what little the pals still have. They want more. They're not done yet. They'll take until there's nothing left to take, if they can. Slowly and methodically, with no regard for the notion of peace at all.

Both sides have problems.

However, it is the Muslim side that continues to insist that Israel be destroyed.

If Israel wanted to destroy the Pals overtly or covertly, they would have.

 

[Lemon law]

Both sides have problems.

However, it is the Muslim side that continues to insist that Israel be destroyed.

If Israel wanted to destroy the Pals overtly or covertly, they would have.

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Please, EK, quit being a totally one sided Israeli fan boy twit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Point granted, in 1948 the surrounding Arab Sates tried to exterminate Israel, they were wrong then, got dope slapped, but where does your delusion come from that Arab States will never change. The point is and remains, the Annapolis conference proved that the Arab States are prepared to recognize Israel and their right to exist.

But yes, EK, you are totally correct, Israel can ape Hitler and exterminate all the Palestinians. Do you advocate they do it the efficient way by building gas ovens to recycle the Palestinians into fertilizer or do you have a better idea?

And killing new born Palestinian infants is always so much more morally elevating for Israelis. Maybe you EK should marry your beliefs to actions by casting that first stone!

Measure your courage, do you have the guts to kill an adult female Palestinian or will you wimp out by only only killing defenseless Palestinian infants?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

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Please, EK, quit being a totally one sided Israeli fan boy twit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Point granted, in 1948 the surrounding Arab Sates tried to exterminate Israel, they were wrong then, got dope slapped, but where does your delusion come from that Arab States will never change. The point is and remains, the Annapolis conference proved that the Arab States are prepared to recognize Israel and their right to exist.

But yes, EK, you are totally correct, Israel can ape Hitler and exterminate all the Palestinians. Do you advocate they do it the efficient way by building gas ovens to recycle the Palestinians into fertilizer or do you have a better idea?

And killing new born Palestinian infants is always so much more morally elevating for Israelis. Maybe you EK should marry your beliefs to actions by casting that first stone!

Measure your courage, do you have the guts to kill an adult female Palestinian or will you wimp out by only only killing defenseless Palestinian infants?

I'm fairly sure that the day when you stop being an extremist suicide bomber apologist for an organisation that EXPLICITLY states that they want genocide of the Jews a proper discussion can be had with you...

Until that day arrives you fucktard, i'm going to ignore you.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm fairly sure that the day when you stop being an extremist suicide bomber apologist for an organisation that EXPLICITLY states that they want genocide of the Jews a proper discussion can be had with you...

Until that day arrives you fucktard, i'm going to ignore you.

That's inaccurate and inflammatory. While Hamas has called for an islamic state, that's not the same as genocide, nor is it relevant to the passage form the Koran wrt the end of days. It's the islamic equivalent of the christian rapture. Israeli clerics have called for the same, just to be fair-

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/892/re72.htm

Jews fleeing from certain death at the hands of Spanish christians in 1492 found homes in the islamic states of North Africa and the Ottoman empire, lived there in relative peace and harmony until the British mandate of palestine allowed for a large jewish influx, and until finally Israeli expulsion of palestinians inflamed public opinion to the point where jews were no longer welcome in the places they'd lived for nearly 500 years...

There are extremists on both sides. The big difference is that the Israeli govt has been appeasing their own with chunks of palestinian territory for over 40 years... and apparently have no intention of doing differently.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

That's inaccurate and inflammatory. While Hamas has called for an islamic state, that's not the same as genocide, nor is it relevant to the passage form the Koran wrt the end of days. It's the islamic equivalent of the christian rapture. Israeli clerics have called for the same, just to be fair-

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/892/re72.htm

Jews fleeing from certain death at the hands of Spanish christians in 1492 found homes in the islamic states of North Africa and the Ottoman empire, lived there in relative peace and harmony until the British mandate of palestine allowed for a large jewish influx, and until finally Israeli expulsion of palestinians inflamed public opinion to the point where jews were no longer welcome in the places they'd lived for nearly 500 years...

There are extremists on both sides. The big difference is that the Israeli govt has been appeasing their own with chunks of palestinian territory for over 40 years... and apparently have no intention of doing differently.

Do i really need to repeat what i said in the post you quoted or can you just read that?

עיזבו אותי בשקט!

 

[Jhhnn]

Do i really need to repeat what i said in the post you quoted or can you just read that?

עיזבו אותי בשקט!

clearly, you have no idea what you said, other than it followed the usual israeli propaganda line... repeat it all you want, won't make it true, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

[Freshgeardude]

That's inaccurate and inflammatory. While Hamas has called for an islamic state, that's not the same as genocide, nor is it relevant to the passage form the Koran wrt the end of days. It's the islamic equivalent of the christian rapture. Israeli clerics have called for the same, just to be fair-

LOLOLOL so much fail in this post!



No, Hamas calls for the destruction of the israeli occupation.

article 31 of hamas's charter states

Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."

"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).​

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

So they are neither interested in peace, nor do they want a state of israel to exist.

They also do not want coexistence with jews and christians

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/892/re72.htm

Jews fleeing from certain death at the hands of Spanish christians in 1492 found homes in the islamic states of North Africa and the Ottoman empire, lived there in relative peace and harmony until the British mandate of palestine allowed for a large jewish influx, and until finally Israeli expulsion of palestinians inflamed public opinion to the point where jews were no longer welcome in the places they'd lived for nearly 500 years...

There are extremists on both sides. The big difference is that the Israeli govt has been appeasing their own with chunks of palestinian territory for over 40 years... and apparently have no intention of doing differently.

Jews were willing to live along side the palestinians back in the late 1800, early 1900s. The palestinians sold the jews "useless" land and the jews payed very well, it seemed like a steal for the palestinains. They actually did so.

When the poor Palestinians saw the jews prosper on the shitty land, they became jealous. They starting to raid jewish settlements and kill people. Hence the creation of the Haganah, which in hebrew means defense.

the haganah was designed for 1 purpose, to defend the jews. if it had been standing guard at a city, then it would be done. if it was attacking palestinian reinforcements to weaken their opponents, it would happen.

These attacks on jewish settlements did 2 things. It created an army to survive the independence war AND the boycott of jewish goods helped them become economically independent.

The Arab uprising of 1936-9
was triggered by increased Jewish immigration in conjunction with
rising Arab nationalist sentiment. Following the revolt, the British Peel Commission
proposed a Palestine divided between a small Jewish state (about 15%), a
much bigger Arab state and an international zone. The Arab leadership

rejected the plan.

lol so by rejecting a 15/85 plan by the british, the arabs ended up with 56/47 in 1947 and EVEN LESS after they tried to take it back


see the pattern? wonder what it is today

 

[EagleKeeper]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please, EK, quit being a totally one sided Israeli fan boy twit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Point granted, in 1948 the surrounding Arab Sates tried to exterminate Israel, they were wrong then, got dope slapped, but where does your delusion come from that Arab States will never change. The point is and remains, the Annapolis conference proved that the Arab States are prepared to recognize Israel and their right to exist.

But yes, EK, you are totally correct, Israel can ape Hitler and exterminate all the Palestinians. Do you advocate they do it the efficient way by building gas ovens to recycle the Palestinians into fertilizer or do you have a better idea?

And killing new born Palestinian infants is always so much more morally elevating for Israelis. Maybe you EK should marry your beliefs to actions by casting that first stone!

Measure your courage, do you have the guts to kill an adult female Palestinian or will you wimp out by only only killing defenseless Palestinian infants?

I have yet to see Lebanon or Syria sign up for peace with Israel.
And the Palestinians did not seem to happy with what the Arab league proposed.
Others have also stated that Egypt and others have been bribed to tone down their issues with Israel.

Have you recently reviewed the Hamas charter. Or is it that it contrasts with your ideas on being a one side anit-Israeli fan boy?

And what about Hezbollah.

Both orginizations are built around the destruction of Israel.

Israel if they wanted Gaza and the West Bank back could easily go in with dozers and destroy the villages. No need to kill the occupants. They have not done so even with all the poking thatthe Palestinians have done.

Compare that to what Jordan did to the Palestinians when they became a thorn.

Israel has exercised great self restraint against a group of people that want to destroy her.

What other country has been so noble?

and Again

Who can speak for the palestinians and ensure that any agreement will be upheld?

How does one handle the proxie masters?

Do you expect that hamas will honor any fatah agreement?

What about hezbollah in lebanon - plan on ignoring them also?

What should israel's responses be if the palestinian's can not keep their end of the agreement which is expect to include no munitions being launched into israel.

Do they treat each faction differently?