JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,947
- 126
Point taken. There may have been other reasons to vote for Hamas, but then again, terrorism is a subject that it is hard to be neutral on. I suppose many Pals may have voted for Hamas for other reasons but at the very least, the bulk of Hamas voters condone or excuse the terrorism at a minimum. Maybe the odd Hamas supporter is vehemently opposed to terrorism, but I'm doubting it's a very large group.
SandEagle
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2007
- 16,809
- 13
- 0
EK, why did i get a warning? am i not entitled to voice my opinion here? however wrong you might think it is?
if u want me to leave just say so.
The warning indicated to cut out the trolling. Tossing out a red herring in the rdfernced post does not fly. Your following post acknowledged such
It was a warning, a shot across your bow to advise you to stop that type of posting.
I advised you earlier, apparently it did not sink in.
EK
Admin
if u want me to leave just say so.
The warning indicated to cut out the trolling. Tossing out a red herring in the rdfernced post does not fly. Your following post acknowledged such
It was a warning, a shot across your bow to advise you to stop that type of posting.
I advised you earlier, apparently it did not sink in.
EK
Admin
Last edited by a moderator:
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
First of all, we have to recognize that only 50% of Palestinians are represented by Hamas, as once again Israel wants to blame all Palestinians for the actions of a few.
And as even EK points out, mots of that 1000 prisoners released by Israel have been held semi-forever by Israel without a trial for at best petty offenses.
Hamas is only a political party, and with Palestinian elections upcoming, we may not even have Hamas to kick around thereafter.
But its still a gesture of Hamas and Egyptian goodwill, and if it gets Israel and the Palestinians back to the negotiating table with a quartet demanded Israeli settlement freeze, lets all applaud the progress.
And as even EK points out, mots of that 1000 prisoners released by Israel have been held semi-forever by Israel without a trial for at best petty offenses.
Hamas is only a political party, and with Palestinian elections upcoming, we may not even have Hamas to kick around thereafter.
But its still a gesture of Hamas and Egyptian goodwill, and if it gets Israel and the Palestinians back to the negotiating table with a quartet demanded Israeli settlement freeze, lets all applaud the progress.
You characterize a bilateral agreement to exchange 1 Israeli soldier for 1000 Palestinian prisoners as a gesture of Hamas goodwill? I love how in this 1000:1 transaction it is Hamas that is being generous rather than Israel. A gesture of goodwill is to do something for the other side unilaterally and without precondition, not when you get 1000 fold what you gave.
I imagine that the average Palestinian is pretty okay with things that we consider terrorism, Hamas supporters in particular. There's the age old 'terrorism-freedom fighter' argument of course, and there is also the fact that someone can accept terrorist acts by a group while considering its other actions to be more important. Hamas has a strong network of social services that can lead people to support them no matter their ideas towards terrorism, not to mention internal political dynamics.
I guess my point is that just because someone votes for Hamas doesn't mean that they support everything Hamas stands for. For example, about 2/3rds of Palestinians are willing to recognize Israel as part of a two state solution, while Hamas explicitly refuses to ever acknowledge them.
SandEagle
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2007
- 16,809
- 13
- 0
we do not know the real status of those 1000. 999 of them could have been swept off the streets for jaywalking
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
I suspect that, like you and ThePresence, I probably would not. I'd have to know the details of the 1,000 criminals involved. If I could choose the 1,000 criminals, it might be worth doing. I'd certainly hate to make that determination with all its implications, especially knowing that Hamas is going to be pressing these freed people to help them commit more terrorist acts so more than likely the deal is a net loss for Israel. Still, there's something to be said for never leaving a man behind.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
That's a lot like saying not everyone who supported Hitler wanted to kill Jews and take over Europe. While you have a point, it's rather overshadowed by Hamas' terrorist aspects.
On the bright side, finally I have someone who can legitimately be made analogous to Hitler!
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
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Try again. Research the names and get back to us. Israel has been fairly accurate in who the sweep and accuse. Had the 999 been jaywalking do you think Hamas would trade for them?
Another example of your trolling. Learning or attention span disorder?
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Yeah I more or less accept your first point. Some Pals who vote for Hamas may oppose terrorism against Israel. Not sure how many.
On your second, about opinion polls, I'm not so sure. It depends on how the question is framed. This is the most recent poll I can find, from July, and it gives a very different picture.
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493
One third agree with Obama's statement, "“there should be two states: Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people and Israel as the homeland for the Jewish people.” That in and of itself isn't that much of a concern, since they may be thinking that Obama means that Israel's existing Arab population would have to leave. Trying to be charitable here in my interpretation. But here is the real telling statistic:
Notice, not even a single combined Jewish/Pal state. Anyone not understanding why Israel insists upon strong security guarantees as a prerequisite to any peace deal should take account of this.
- wolf
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SandEagle
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2007
- 16,809
- 13
- 0
Nebor
Lifer
- Jun 24, 2003
- 29,582
- 12
- 76
As true today as it was 15 years ago. And obviously still the governing policy of Israel.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
I do not know about the stinking thinking of some Rabbi Y, but where I come from in the USA, the civil rights of one Palestinian is exactly equal to the same one Israeli.
Given the fact Israel holds some 30% of its population in bondage and perpetual 3 third class citizen ship, in my mind it becomes impossible to build a just Israeli state on that basis of racial and religious discrimination.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6972361.stm
With the iron-fisted control Hamas has over Gaza today, since they've basically arrested or murdered any opposition faction members, nobody would dare hold an open protest against them.
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
- 5
- 0
SandEagle
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2007
- 16,809
- 13
- 0
cmon dood. you mentioned the list without sourcing it. and when i politely asked for proof you attack my character and tell me to troll elsewhere? a simple 'i dont know'. would suffice. we're all adults here. lets act like it.
I do not like this deal and expect I would not approve it.
The discussion here does not discuss the issues - the legitimate concern of Palestinians over excessive imprisonment, the role that plays in the Palestinians taking a hostage.
A few points:
- The overriding situation here is the issue of Israeli occupation and oppression, creating a context of conflict where there will be problems of violence; from the 'official' Israeli policies repressing Palestinians and things like the settlements and other ongoing taking of Palestinian land, to the Palestinians' ongoing use of violence against Israelis, the rockets and other acts.
- On the face of it, the Palestinians who kidnap the soldier are purely criminal; the larger context of these tensions and excessive imprisonment affect that.
The link notes, "Virtually every Palestinian has a relative who has served time in an Israeli prison". There are suggestions that the imprisonment is excessive.
This is where you get into 'two wrongs not making a right' - repeated year after year.
If this were simply the kidnapping, Israel should not reward it; the situation is more complicated.
- It's one thing to trade one unjustly kidnapped Israeli for any number of unjustly imprisoned Palestinians. The whole imprisonment would be wrong on both sides in the first place.
In that case, this kind of exchange could be 'rough justice'.
But it sounds like some of these prisoners are far from 'unjustly imprisoned' - imprisoned for real crimes, and I think it sounds like a very bad idea to let them free.
For that reason, I think I would not approve this deal.
So, the situation is a mess because of the ongoing bigger conflicts. But it sounds like a bad deal to make and wrong of the Palestinians to ask for legitimate criminals to be freed.
- Finally, a classic issue of immoral bigotry is when one group - usually more powerful - dehumanizes another. It gets into this 'one of (bigoted group) is worth (large number) of (dehumanized group). This sort of language and view is classic to evil for a long time - including the Nazi view of Jews, tribes in Africa, British and their third world colonies, whites and native populations, etc.
It typically involves things like referring to the dehumanized group as 'insects', 'vermin', to the mass killing of them as 'cleaning' the world.
Several posters in this thread have shown this mentality of evil in their posts looking to express various ways of saying 'Palestinians are worth less than Israelis'.
It is evil, morally reprehensible, and shows just the sort of mentality of evil that can justify the nearly unjustifiable, terrorism in the face of injustice.
This attitude is the originating crime causing others as there are conflicts between the bigoted group and the dehumanized group.
I'm disgusted by the posters who post that bigotry.
What we should be trying to do is look for a just, peaceful co-existence based not on simply might, but on what's right as much as practical.
This would involve the Israelis not getting everything they want, and Palestinians treating the Israelis with respect as well.
Bigotry is the problem, not helping. It's the evil causing so much of these problems on both sides, as so many in the region hate and dehumanize Jews as well.
People here in the US posting are moral midgets, without real reason for any bigotry other than being armchair bigots, immoral - yet citizens of a powerful nation affecting policy.
They have no accountability for when their ignorance helps lead to suffering in the Middle East - not unlike the way the British citizen did not need to be concerned about the victims of their empire, in fact believing that the empire was 'civilizing' the people while so many were oppressed and killed.
The Israelis must feel a lot of hate fot the Palestinians over their kidnapping of the soldier, wanting him back badly enough to view the release of many criminals as worth it.
They must feel a huge sense of injustice, at the idea of a young man who 'did nothing wrong' being kidnapped for years while criminals go free as a reward for kidnapping.
Will that hate fuel support for oppressive policies, continuing the cycle of acts against each other? Will it encourage them to dehumanize Palestinians? That's a problem.
This sort of ongoing conflict is a good reason for looking for some sort of peaceful solution - but people using their 'might' to get as much as they think they can, when Israel might think time is on its side that the longer there is no settlement, the more things will shift in their favor, that's a problem, too.
The discussion here does not discuss the issues - the legitimate concern of Palestinians over excessive imprisonment, the role that plays in the Palestinians taking a hostage.
A few points:
- The overriding situation here is the issue of Israeli occupation and oppression, creating a context of conflict where there will be problems of violence; from the 'official' Israeli policies repressing Palestinians and things like the settlements and other ongoing taking of Palestinian land, to the Palestinians' ongoing use of violence against Israelis, the rockets and other acts.
- On the face of it, the Palestinians who kidnap the soldier are purely criminal; the larger context of these tensions and excessive imprisonment affect that.
The link notes, "Virtually every Palestinian has a relative who has served time in an Israeli prison". There are suggestions that the imprisonment is excessive.
This is where you get into 'two wrongs not making a right' - repeated year after year.
If this were simply the kidnapping, Israel should not reward it; the situation is more complicated.
- It's one thing to trade one unjustly kidnapped Israeli for any number of unjustly imprisoned Palestinians. The whole imprisonment would be wrong on both sides in the first place.
In that case, this kind of exchange could be 'rough justice'.
But it sounds like some of these prisoners are far from 'unjustly imprisoned' - imprisoned for real crimes, and I think it sounds like a very bad idea to let them free.
For that reason, I think I would not approve this deal.
So, the situation is a mess because of the ongoing bigger conflicts. But it sounds like a bad deal to make and wrong of the Palestinians to ask for legitimate criminals to be freed.
- Finally, a classic issue of immoral bigotry is when one group - usually more powerful - dehumanizes another. It gets into this 'one of (bigoted group) is worth (large number) of (dehumanized group). This sort of language and view is classic to evil for a long time - including the Nazi view of Jews, tribes in Africa, British and their third world colonies, whites and native populations, etc.
It typically involves things like referring to the dehumanized group as 'insects', 'vermin', to the mass killing of them as 'cleaning' the world.
Several posters in this thread have shown this mentality of evil in their posts looking to express various ways of saying 'Palestinians are worth less than Israelis'.
It is evil, morally reprehensible, and shows just the sort of mentality of evil that can justify the nearly unjustifiable, terrorism in the face of injustice.
This attitude is the originating crime causing others as there are conflicts between the bigoted group and the dehumanized group.
I'm disgusted by the posters who post that bigotry.
What we should be trying to do is look for a just, peaceful co-existence based not on simply might, but on what's right as much as practical.
This would involve the Israelis not getting everything they want, and Palestinians treating the Israelis with respect as well.
Bigotry is the problem, not helping. It's the evil causing so much of these problems on both sides, as so many in the region hate and dehumanize Jews as well.
People here in the US posting are moral midgets, without real reason for any bigotry other than being armchair bigots, immoral - yet citizens of a powerful nation affecting policy.
They have no accountability for when their ignorance helps lead to suffering in the Middle East - not unlike the way the British citizen did not need to be concerned about the victims of their empire, in fact believing that the empire was 'civilizing' the people while so many were oppressed and killed.
The Israelis must feel a lot of hate fot the Palestinians over their kidnapping of the soldier, wanting him back badly enough to view the release of many criminals as worth it.
They must feel a huge sense of injustice, at the idea of a young man who 'did nothing wrong' being kidnapped for years while criminals go free as a reward for kidnapping.
Will that hate fuel support for oppressive policies, continuing the cycle of acts against each other? Will it encourage them to dehumanize Palestinians? That's a problem.
This sort of ongoing conflict is a good reason for looking for some sort of peaceful solution - but people using their 'might' to get as much as they think they can, when Israel might think time is on its side that the longer there is no settlement, the more things will shift in their favor, that's a problem, too.
How could you tell the difference the released criminals and the rest of the Palestinians anyway?
Despite photographs and biometrics data, dirty brown is brown, eh?
Prejudicial bigotry is what it is.
Stormfront at Anandtech has returned again.
Ignorance is what it is.
Hint upon reality, QuantumPion, Hamas no longer leads with it's elected mandate to head the Palestinian Authority.
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
- 5
- 0
I apologize.
The use of the word trolling in this case was legit. The intent was to search the Web for information ( positive type of trolling )
However, I fired off some of my search engines.
The list of prisoners has not been released to the media.
I would expect that once the full swap has been completed; then the names will become available.
There are statements as to the fact that some of the prisoners were serving multiple life sentences for attacks /killings.
And Hamas is not going to expend political capital for a jaywalker.
Why not? Someone who is imprisoned for no good reason is an especially good reason to fight for their release - see the 'hiker spies' we fought to get back from Iran.
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