Hmm, sounds like if we want a REAL solution there we need a peacekeeping force that's actually authorized to keep the peace. No trigger-happy Israelis being allowed to threaten anything that moves and no terrorists being allowed to smuggle weapons right under the noses of the peacekeeping forces. And we NEED a strong peacekeeping force there, clearly neither side is going to be real helpful in moving in that direction.
Hmm, sounds like if we want a REAL solution there we need a peacekeeping force that's actually authorized to keep the peace. No trigger-happy Israelis being allowed to threaten anything that moves and no terrorists being allowed to smuggle weapons right under the noses of the peacekeeping forces. And we NEED a strong peacekeeping force there, clearly neither side is going to be real helpful in moving in that direction.
If Israel wanted the German Commander dead, he would be dead. With the crap with Iran/Syria right now, I would suspect they have good reason to be jumpy.
They did not shoot/ask questions later, they fired warning shots. Sort of like "Ok, I see you, who are you?"
With Iran asking for there destructions, China and Russia becomming allies of Iran and NK with nukes, I don't really think we can blame them for being jumpy over a ship/chopper that did not have clearance. Of course, Israel is suppose to sit back and wait for the battle to come to them right?
Maybe they saw what happened with 9/11 and decided to quit waiting.
They did not shoot/ask questions later, they fired warning shots. Sort of like "Ok, I see you, who are you?"
With Iran asking for there destructions, China and Russia becomming allies of Iran and NK with nukes, I don't really think we can blame them for being jumpy over a ship/chopper that did not have clearance. Of course, Israel is suppose to sit back and wait for the battle to come to them right?
Maybe they saw what happened with 9/11 and decided to quit waiting.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 33,896
- 7,922
- 136
Members of the Israeli army acting immature don't help Israel any. It is detrimental to any concept of international tolerance for Israel's continued existence. If they did manage to spark a conflict with Germany by taking a shot at them, it would have severely negative consequences for Israel.
Thank you for the article but I still think that we must wait a bit and look if the Lebanese Army is able to improve its effectiveness or if the mandate of the UNIFIL gets better.
Also the article says that so far Hezbollah at least hasn't broken the 1701 resolution and moves no arms in the peacekeeper zone so maybe Israel should really use as few drones as possible.
But the present Israeli attitude towards UNIFIL doesn't help them and the more UNIFIL is jeered at by Israeli military, the less credible it will not only be for Hezbollah but for the average Lebanese civilian, too.
If you were the captain of this German ship, in international water, and saw six F-16 heading towards you and dropping out thermal decoys, what would you think?
And locking somebody in the target system is the last thing that happens before somebody opens fire or launching a missile, it is a threatening act. It's the equivalent of a knight pointing his lance at you and riding in your direction.
// The planes should've used the radio if they wanted to say "hi".
My point was that, if you want to have a successful peacekeeping force, you need a group that DOESN'T have to go around getting permission from the groups in the area to do things, and you need a group that will react violently if threatened or attacked. If Israel wants to be in charge, a peacekeeping force isn't going to work any better than if Hamas was calling the shots.
As for "blaming them for being jumpy", I fail to see how actions like this will HELP settle the situation down, it was bad enough that it was a German ship, what if it was a Syrian ship that got lost or something? That's how needless wars start...
Thanks Mods, very scary as to who people like that really are.
Homeland Security subpeona anyone?
Was he really banned? Just for making anti-Isreali statements? Looks like you can't bash anyone on these forums except muslims.
-------------------------------------
Read his post about 4 hours prior to this one.
Muslims in and among themselves are not allowed to be bashed here
The ones that advocated extreme methods that go against what is claimed to be their peaceful loving religion standards become fair game.
You can decide which side of the fence you choose to stand on
Anandtech Moderator
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
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What he said was over the line, but not personal; take out the profanity, and the fact remains he's more correct than you.
I agree. The best course of action would have been to choose a force that would have responded with a fair response to both sides. The problem is you cannot do that. If the Germans attacked Lebannon/Syrian/Iranian armed forced, Muslims would be in arms about a supposed "western" country crusading against them, and the extremists would attack Germany. If Germany attacked Israel, than Israel would respond in kind and Germany would have the entire "returning to Nazism" roots would explome. (If you don't belive that, look at the fact if you critizise Israel at all you become anti-semitic). The best response to this would have been to let the war finish, let Israel and Lebannon have it out, or let Israel occupy souther Lebannon until the Lebaneese government cleaned up its act. Any peacekeeping force, unless it will fire on both sides is a failure. They should have let the Chineese army conducted the peacekeeping missions with ships leant from Russia.
Overall letting Germany anywhere near this was a mistake.
Yep, when the Iraqi's even turned on their targetting radars during the time of the northern and southern no-fly-zones, the US and UK planes would blast the hell out of the arrays. And this was all condoned by the world as acceptable.
So, did anybody in this thread not accept their errors or faults?
The sole purpose of this thread to try and make Israel look bad, as if the event it focuses on was such a big deal.
Indeed, part of the problem is that the western world as a whole is not seen as a neutral force interested in peace by the Muslim world. And that's not exactly paranoia on their part, we DON'T act like that's our agenda. Personally I think China has a perfect chance here to joint the world powers club in a big way, they are as "neutral" as any group will get in the Middle East and if they act as peacekeepers they will be able to make nice with the west AND start exerting influence beyond their borders for positive reasons. So far their foreign policy in terms of helping other countries seems to consist of supporting North Korea, and that's not really going to fly in the long run. Of course problems abound, as big as China's armed forces are, they are NOT very ready to engage in the kind of long term operations necessary for peacekeeping far from home. Still, an interesting idea.
Israel is fantastic at making itself look bad. They repeatedly claim that all they want to do is live in peace, yet at the same time act like they are just ITCHING for a chance to blow someone away. Hard to make peace with people like that running the show.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
- 81
Not at all. Regardless of the poor relationship between Israel and surrounding nations, Israel is also a terrible international citizen, lacks any respect whatsoever for international law, the UN, and the rules of engagement that apply to other supposedly civilized countries.
Fifty years ago, I would not have supported the creation of Israel in its present form and location. But Israel is there now, just like 'we' are here on what is mostly (by treaty) Native land. The right solution is not to roll back the clock, or exterminate anyone, and it probably is not terrorism, either. I support Israel's right to defend itself against attacks on its citizens and territory (though defining their rightful territory is a little tough). I do not support a number of the specific actions they take in defending these things.
I certainly do not support Israel acting like an immature little brat in its relations with the west, and I do not like seeing western leaders - my leaders handing the Isaeli government a free pass every time they do something stupid.
Better?
Your reply seemed like it was going to give some details, but then you started talking about what you think can and/or should be done.
You finished by making an assertion.
At least have the decency of giving some examples as to what you mean by respect for international law, UN, rules of engagement, as well as the immature brat part.
You finished by making an assertion.
At least have the decency of giving some examples as to what you mean by respect for international law, UN, rules of engagement, as well as the immature brat part.
No, you -- like so many others -- hold Israel accountable to a totally different set of standards.
The Hezbollah or Hamas/Fatah could be lobbing rockets or mortar rounds into Israel day and night, and nobody would care. However, if Israel is just accused of firing on an ambulance, or an AP vehicle, the entire wold is in an uproar.
Sorry buddy, either use the same standards, or don't bother, since in a region where the adversary is more than happy to trick children into carrying bombs, I'd say it's doing pretty well.
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
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This incident, the Liberty, every UN resolution ever passed that required something of Israel, the manner in which western governments and the US in particular are wrappd around Israel's little finger in terms of foreign aid (to a country with no need for it!), apologisms, etc.
Israel's methods of retaliation for terrorism have killed many times more then terrorist attacks have done, and even at that are highly ineffective; this makes them appear nothing better than vindictive and vengeful.
The reason I talked about what should be done was to nip in the bud any accusations related to 'Israel's right to exist', by stating clearly that since Israel does exist, it should continue to do so, without agreeing that it should have been created in the first place.
There's little to be gained by going on ad nauseum about many specific incidents, because proper Israel apologists have already rationalized all of them as they happened. Israel's international record is clear to anyone able to see through their fear of being labelled anti-semitic. Personally I can handle being called this because I know that I am not.
No point talking about specific incidents, yet you mention two right off the bat, and sealed deal by labeling anyone who would have an opinion contrary to yours as being an apologist. Exquisite!
Also, one has to wonder at the huge number of UN resoultions passed concerning Israel -- that should be telling you something.
Any reprisal to a terrorist attack will be preceived as vindictive and vengful by those who support terrorism. Additionaly, expecting, or even demanding a proportional response is ludicrous.
Also, one has to wonder at the huge number of UN resoultions passed concerning Israel -- that should be telling you something.
Any reprisal to a terrorist attack will be preceived as vindictive and vengful by those who support terrorism. Additionaly, expecting, or even demanding a proportional response is ludicrous.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,320
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Do you seriously think that Israel hopes for peace???
You have to be kidding!!
You state-- The Israeli position seems to be shoot first---ask questions later---which is an international incident waiting to happen. -- I saw no mentions of shots being fired???
Just because there is a Peacekeeping force in lebanon does not mean that force should be able to enter Israeli airspace without permission!!
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,320
- 126
Actually just because there is a Un peacekeeping force in lebanon does not mean they can intrude inro Israeli airspace just because they want to....
The Israeli`s have every right to defend ther airspace even from the UN Peacekeeping farce.
Again I didn`t see any mentions of shots being fired......hmmm
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
- Mar 30, 2004
- 9,859
- 1
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I mentioned a few events because they are flashpoints; you could erase them from history and the conclusion remains the same.
Anyone wishing to hold a supportable differing opinion is taking on a massive burden of proof, because if it were any other nation, the conclusion would be similar to mine, and largely uncontroversial.
The number of UN resolutions concering Israel probably has something to do with the frequency with which they act outside of usually accepted norms for international behaviour (rightly or wrongly).
I find it amusing that you're offended by being called an apologist (which you are; again, rightly or wrongly), yet so lightly imply that I am a supporter of terrorism, when I have said nothing consistent with holding such a position.
I don't necessarily demand a proportionate response. That being said, with Israel's vastly superior recon and targetting ability, one would be entirely possible. In any case, a massively disproportionate response which has proven ineffective over the course of many years is most easily interpretted as vindictive, a little like the death penalty.
That's right -- carry on with your assertions that you are correct, and that the burden of proof is on those who do not hold the same opinion as you.
The number of UN resolutions shows how obsessed that institution is with Israel, or, I should say, how much it is in the hands of the Arab states, as they can push their agenda quite easily. All the resolutions passed in regards to Israel have done nothing more than to denigrate the UN, and make it look like no more than rubber stamp; no wonder it is considered a lame duck nowadays.
I'm not offended when being called an apologist -- it only demonstrate that the person making the claim has nothing of substance to say.
Funny you should feel like you've been accused of supporting terrorism, just by your own impression that I have been offended; don't project your insecurities on me.
A vastly superior recon & targeting ability does not mean you can carry out an operation with little colateral damage -- not when the terrorists are hiding in the middle of a city that's full people with AK-47s. If you let a terrorist stay in your house, then any family memeber in that house is your responsibility, or as the recent conflict showed us: if you let Hezbollah park their truck next to your house, don't be surprised that you wake up the next morning without a house.
The number of UN resolutions shows how obsessed that institution is with Israel, or, I should say, how much it is in the hands of the Arab states, as they can push their agenda quite easily. All the resolutions passed in regards to Israel have done nothing more than to denigrate the UN, and make it look like no more than rubber stamp; no wonder it is considered a lame duck nowadays.
I'm not offended when being called an apologist -- it only demonstrate that the person making the claim has nothing of substance to say.
Funny you should feel like you've been accused of supporting terrorism, just by your own impression that I have been offended; don't project your insecurities on me.
A vastly superior recon & targeting ability does not mean you can carry out an operation with little colateral damage -- not when the terrorists are hiding in the middle of a city that's full people with AK-47s. If you let a terrorist stay in your house, then any family memeber in that house is your responsibility, or as the recent conflict showed us: if you let Hezbollah park their truck next to your house, don't be surprised that you wake up the next morning without a house.
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