Israel settlements tabled at Annapolis peace talks.

[Lemon law]

Just in from Yahoo news. Both Abbas and Olmert have agreed to drop the issue of continued
Israeli settlement on disputed land and table that issue to concentrate on more productive areas like the formation of a Palestinian State.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200....vovc9wG7HMfQfq5.s0NUE

Although I am somewhat skeptical they will find any real viable agreement on that issue either.
But I would assume if rapid progress can't be made with Israel willing to put some real concessions into the formation of a Palestinian State, we can probably expect the rapid collapse of the Annapolis conference.

And the next hope for any real progress will not occur until GWB is out of office. And Abbas will thereafter be greatly weakened because playing Israeli poodle failed to deliver anything.

I hope I am wrong so lets see what happens now after wasting much time already trying to
get anything both sides could agree to. But a viable Palestinian State could be the holy grail and form the basis for a lasting peace.

 

[kylebisme]

And exactly where is this "viable Palestinian State" supposed to be located? Disneyland? They can't rightly have anything of the sort in Palestine as long as that land is divided by foreign settlements.

 

[Ozoned]

If Israel would just quit being so hard headed, and just agree that they don't have a right to exist as a state on Mohammeds Island, there would be peace.

Until that happens, or until the idealogy that wants it to happen is annihalated, Israel will not have any security.

 

[Noobtastic]

Israel is plenty secure. Once Palestinians are done being infected by the Islamic country, nothing is going to change. The islamic countries LOVE the Palestinians. How else would they be able to point the figure at Israel?

heh.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Just in from Yahoo news. Both Abbas and Olmert have agreed to drop the issue of continued
Israeli settlement on disputed land and table that issue to concentrate on more productive areas like the formation of a Palestinian State.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200....vovc9wG7HMfQfq5.s0NUE

Although I am somewhat skeptical they will find any real viable agreement on that issue either.
But I would assume if rapid progress can't be made with Israel willing to put some real concessions into the formation of a Palestinian State, we can probably expect the rapid collapse of the Annapolis conference.

And the next hope for any real progress will not occur until GWB is out of office. And Abbas will thereafter be greatly weakened because playing Israeli poodle failed to deliver anything.

I hope I am wrong so lets see what happens now after wasting much time already trying to
get anything both sides could agree to. But a viable Palestinian State could be the holy grail and form the basis for a lasting peace.

My bolded area of your post.

Negotiations are supposed to involve some give and take.
What are the Palestinians bringing to the table for Israel?
What are their real concessions?

Or is this expected to be a one way street?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Just in from Yahoo news. Both Abbas and Olmert have agreed to drop the issue of continued
Israeli settlement on disputed land and table that issue to concentrate on more productive areas like the formation of a Palestinian State.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200....vovc9wG7HMfQfq5.s0NUE

Although I am somewhat skeptical they will find any real viable agreement on that issue either.
But I would assume if rapid progress can't be made with Israel willing to put some real concessions into the formation of a Palestinian State, we can probably expect the rapid collapse of the Annapolis conference.

And the next hope for any real progress will not occur until GWB is out of office. And Abbas will thereafter be greatly weakened because playing Israeli poodle failed to deliver anything.

I hope I am wrong so lets see what happens now after wasting much time already trying to
get anything both sides could agree to. But a viable Palestinian State could be the holy grail and form the basis for a lasting peace.

My bolded area of your post.

Negotiations are supposed to involve some give and take.
What are the Palestinians bringing to the table for Israel?
What are their real concessions?

Or is this expected to be a one way street?

They will let Israel live of course

 

[Jhhnn]

Meh.

A critical examination of the Israeli position reveals that they're insincere. No Palestinian govt can possibly arrive at zero violence towards Israel w/o the political consensus of the population to do so, to disavow their own radicals. And that can't happen w/o concessions from the Israelis, who need to rein in their own radicals, the settlers and expansionists. Yeh, sure, the Israelis periodically make a big show of dismantling some settlements, but it's really a matter of one step back, two steps forward from a historical perspective. That's obvious, making discussion with anybody who claims otherwise completely pointless.

The only reason the Israelis are talking, now about almost nothing, is because the Bush Admin twisted their arm to bring 'em to the table, hoping to put some sort of shine on the "Bush Legacy".

And the only reason for the Pals to stay is to attempt to lift the Israeli siege of Gaza, prevent themselves from being portrayed as the bad guys for walking out. If the Israelis won't discuss anything substantiative, like territory, they're pretty much left discussing the Mets... the weather... and establishing some future venue where the Israelis might talk about something that matters, maybe, if they feel like it...

Which they won't, even if they make a big show of it...

Watching the Israelis is like watching family violence perpetrated across generations- those who've been victims are the most likely to act as perps later on...

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Meh.

A critical examination of the Israeli position reveals that they're insincere. No Palestinian govt can possibly arrive at zero violence towards Israel w/o the political consensus of the population to do so, to disavow their own radicals. And that can't happen w/o concessions from the Israelis, who need to rein in their own radicals, the settlers and expansionists. Yeh, sure, the Israelis periodically make a big show of dismantling some settlements, but it's really a matter of one step back, two steps forward from a historical perspective. That's obvious, making discussion with anybody who claims otherwise completely pointless.

The only reason the Israelis are talking, now about almost nothing, is because the Bush Admin twisted their arm to bring 'em to the table, hoping to put some sort of shine on the "Bush Legacy".

And the only reason for the Pals to stay is to attempt to lift the Israeli siege of Gaza, prevent themselves from being portrayed as the bad guys for walking out. If the Israelis won't discuss anything substantiative, like territory, they're pretty much left discussing the Mets... the weather... and establishing some future venue where the Israelis might talk about something that matters, maybe, if they feel like it...

Which they won't, even if they make a big show of it...

Watching the Israelis is like watching family violence perpetrated across generations- those who've been victims are the most likely to act as perps later on...

Is this the same way that the only thing that Palestinians bring to the table is "well stop throwing rockets into your cities". Every time they say they will stop they do not. Why should Israel start giving concessions for anything when they are negotiating with a people who have shown they will not follow anything they say in regards to peace agreements? I really don't see how Israel benefits with having Palestinians right on her border to her highest population zones when the Palestinians leaders have not showed an ounce of resolve into keeping there promises of peace.

 

[Lemon law]

The point is that Israel has stolen Palestinian lands and left the Palestinians with nothing dating back to 1948 and the right to return. And for that matter 100% of the lands now occupied by Israel from the 1967 war must be given back. A Palestinian State is the only just settlement.

The concessions must be on the Israeli part or next year will be like the preceding 60. But don't bet on Israel staying another 60 years if they can't defuse the tensions.

There are lots of wrongs on both sides, but the unbiased has to look at the merits of the case from the point of view of both sides. And too many people just want to blind themselves to Israeli wrongs that partly drive the conflict. And expect the Palestinians to grow gills and swim away so Israel can win. When in fact the terrorists and extremists will end up causing a huge war they will both lose.

 

[Jhhnn]

As I pointed out, RichardE, the Israelis haven't allowed the Palestinian leadership sufficient resources to get the Palestinian populace behind them is the quest for peace and stability, and apparently have no intention of doing so. Israel has thrived on violence and expansionism all along, using any pretext to continue down that path. Why would they quit now?

They've got the Pals caught in a basic Catch-22... If the Pals go along with the Israelis, they get screwed, and if they resist, they still get screwed...

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The point is that Israel has stolen Palestinian lands and left the Palestinians with nothing dating back to 1948 and the right to return. And for that matter 100% of the lands now occupied by Israel from the 1967 war must be given back. A Palestinian State is the only just settlement.

The concessions must be on the Israeli part or next year will be like the preceding 60. But don't bet on Israel staying another 60 years if they can't defuse the tensions.

There are lots of wrongs on both sides, but the unbiased has to look at the merits of the case from the point of view of both sides. And too many people just want to blind themselves to Israeli wrongs that partly drive the conflict. And expect the Palestinians to grow gills and swim away so Israel can win. When in fact the terrorists and extremists will end up causing a huge war they will both lose.

I've debated this with you numerous times and have proven you wrong on every account until you stop responding. I won't bother retyping what I have said already to you, if you want to refute the points I brought up in the past Ill play, but stop sporting your "I read it on Wiki so its true" bullshit.

(In reference I'm speaking in regards to the land claims, which we have debated to death.)

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
As I pointed out, RichardE, the Israelis haven't allowed the Palestinian leadership sufficient resources to get the Palestinian populace behind them is the quest for peace and stability, and apparently have no intention of doing so. Israel has thrived on violence and expansionism all along, using any pretext to continue down that path. Why would they quit now?

They've got the Pals caught in a basic Catch-22... If the Pals go along with the Israelis, they get screwed, and if they resist, they still get screwed...

Israel is in the same catch-22 though. If we give concessions and are attacked we still get killed, if we don't give concessions because of it and are attacked, we get killed. The Palestinians have to be the first ones to lay down there weapons, there won't be any peace agreement till than.

Olmert is the Palestinians best chance at peace in the near future, the new politicians coming up the majority are willing to take a hard line and ride the "Iran is coming" fear wave.

The fact is every peace agreement has resulted in the Palestinians rocket teams killing more of Israels people after they were done. If the Palestinian government needs to take a hard line of on the spot executions to succeed in stopping these, than they must be done. Israel has been stabbed in the back too many times to trust the "word" of a group who did the backstabbing though.

 

[Lemon law]

To RichardE,

Its not a matter of you proving you are right to you, its not a matter of me being right, the point is that this conflict has now gone on for 60 years and shows no signs of being solved so its going to continue on and on unless something positive is done. You may be right that the Palestinians end up taking the most causualities due to terrorism, but as we can see, it increases and not deters terrorism. Right now its Israel that is in its strongest negotiating position and thereafter it will be increasingly worse. But given the various assets on both sides, Israel is going to long terms lose even if its winning now. Unless Israel can defuse the tensions, long term the oil money and larger populations will be the telling factors. Six million can't hold out against 30 to one odds. Sooner or later, hated being what they are, some Arab hothead terrorists will smuggle in either nukes or chemical and biological weapons.

And then there will be nothing left to share.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To RichardE,

Its not a matter of you proving you are right to you, its not a matter of me being right, the point is that this conflict has now gone on for 60 years and shows no signs of being solved so its going to continue on and on unless something positive is done. You may be right that the Palestinians end up taking the most causalities due to terrorism, but as we can see, it increases and not deters terrorism. Right now its Israel that is in its strongest negotiating position and thereafter it will be increasingly worse. But given the various assets on both sides, Israel is going to long terms lose even if its winning now. Unless Israel can defuse the tensions, long term the oil money and larger populations will be the telling factors. Six million can't hold out against 30 to one odds. Sooner or later, hated being what they are, some Arab hothead terrorists will smuggle in either nukes or chemical and biological weapons.

And then there will be nothing left to share.

Another fly in the ointment is that Israel has been on the short side of the numbers since day 0. Every time they have made concessions to the Palestinians, they have gotten bit by the Palestinians. It may be that the Pal leadership does not have the authority to stand behind their agreements, do not have the desire or that they never intended to honor them; who knows.

Israel is not interested in the long term; they are interested in protecting themselves now.
And up until this point, the Arab/Palestine leadership has been interested in protecting their political bases first at the expense of the population.

Should Israel give up anything, there will be many in the Arab world that feel that something != everything; therefore the current methods are wearing down Israel.

And in the above scenario, Israel will just tighten up and refuse anything down the road, because their opponents will have again shown that they will not negotiate in good faith.


So whatever, Israel gives up, the Pal leadership will have to enforce their side of the agreement. Fatah can not absolve themselves by blaming Hamas or other radicals for breaking the agreement down the road

 

[Jhhnn]

Please, RichardE- you argue in circles. At no time have the Israelis made concessions of enough substance that Palestinian leadership can marshal the population to the cause of peace. Very straightforward, and quite by design on the part of the Israelis.

They don't want to pay any price at all for peace- they want to expand their settlements indefinitely into the occupied territories and beyond, when the time comes for that. They've thrived on violence and expansion- why change when you're riding the biggest guilt trip of the 20th century and have America's sympathy, misguided though it is?

Imagine, if you will, that the Israelis aren't Jewish, just for a moment... What would be the basis for America's irrational support of their aggressive theo-ethnic State, anyway? What leverage would they have to sway our emotions if it weren't for the holocaust, and the guilt trip generally accepted as America's burden?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Please, RichardE- you argue in circles. At no time have the Israelis made concessions of enough substance that Palestinian leadership can marshal the population to the cause of peace. Very straightforward, and quite by design on the part of the Israelis.

They don't want to pay any price at all for peace- they want to expand their settlements indefinitely into the occupied territories and beyond, when the time comes for that. They've thrived on violence and expansion- why change when you're riding the biggest guilt trip of the 20th century and have America's sympathy, misguided though it is?

Imagine, if you will, that the Israelis aren't Jewish, just for a moment... What would be the basis for America's irrational support of their aggressive theo-ethnic State, anyway? What leverage would they have to sway our emotions if it weren't for the holocaust, and the guilt trip generally accepted as America's burden?

Though this answer might seem like it came quickly, Im at work so it might be a while before I respond again.

The people of Israel want peace, there have been talks of trying to get peace with the arabs to work for a while now and quite strongly for the last few years. Olmert himself if giving all the concessions that were offered before and more to the point where some call him suicidal. The concessions Palestinians now ask not only are too much, but they are asking Israel to give up her security in blind faith that Palestine will be able to deal with her own problems. Again, we know what benefits the palestinians will receive from any brokerage of peace, what excatly does Israel get in return, besides a promise (that many see as empty) of no more killing our citizens as they shop and go about there faily lives.

The fact you think the average Israel thrives on bloodshed and screams in joy with every arab death shows how far removed you are from the situation. Up until recently Israel and Arabs enjoyed markets together, went to holy sites together, ate together in relative peace, but the calls for Jihad and subsequent bloodshed has returned tensions to a place that was relatively tensionless. You act as if it is the duty of Israel to take care of Palestinians problems, it is not. There is no point to Israel accepting a peacefull compromise when the Palestinian government cannot control its own people.

What honestly makes you think a state of Palestine will work when they cannot control there own villages as it is now, it is suicidal for Israel to accept a Palestinian state at this time.

 

[Lemon law]

RichardE's big illusion is here---The people of Israel want peace.

But they are unwilling to pay the needed price for it---which is to give back some of what they stole from the Palestinians.

Sorry, no longer how you cut it, its the Israeli politics of pigs. And pigs have a habit of becoming bacon. I sure am not saying Palestinians and Arabs are angels here either, but if the tensions are not defused, there will be nothing left to share. Has 60 years taught you nothing?

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
RichardE's big illusion is here---The people of Israel want peace.

But they are unwilling to pay the needed price for it---which is to give back some of what they stole from the Palestinians.

Is this a joke?

Sorry, no longer how you cut it, its the Israeli politics of pigs. And pigs have a habit of becoming bacon. I sure am not saying Palestinians and Arabs are angels here either, but if the tensions are not defused, there will be nothing left to share. Has 60 years taught you nothing?

Hahaha...

Hmmm..thank you American education!

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe Noobtastic, you should do some good ole American education, do some reading up, and think about what your viewpoint might be if you had to walk an inch in Palestinian shoes.

You are sure not going to get any truth from the Israeli lobby. Or from Arab websites either. There is a large and ever accumulating set of injustices on both sides.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
RichardE's big illusion is here---The people of Israel want peace.

But they are unwilling to pay the needed price for it---which is to give back some of what they stole from the Palestinians.

Sorry, no longer how you cut it, its the Israeli politics of pigs. And pigs have a habit of becoming bacon. I sure am not saying Palestinians and Arabs are angels here either, but if the tensions are not defused, there will be nothing left to share. Has 60 years taught you nothing?

When Israel returned Gaza what happened.
The militants (w/ the tact approval of the Pal leadership) moved forward and continued to shell Israel with rockets.

One can state that Israel should have returned all the land to the '67 borders and the Pals would have been peaseful neighbors.

Now those people would also be willing to purchase oceanfront property in Arizona.



As many have stated, both sides need to make concessions and it will take little steps to move forward. This has happened with Jordan and Egypt.

When Israel makes a baby step forward (such a Gaza), the Pals do not reciprocate which could lead to some trust.

There are many in the Pal/Arab world that do not want any type of peace. The Pal leadership must control that issue, otherwise Israel will not trust the Pals and no baby steps will occur.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Maybe Noobtastic, you should do some good ole American education, do some reading up, and think about what your viewpoint might be if you had to walk an inch in Palestinian shoes.

I'm sorry, but it's hard not to laugh when someone is able to rationalize the sandbagging of Israel and then manage to downgrade the blatant anti-Israeli terrorism contribution by Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia to Hezbollah and Palestinian fighters.

Then, you expect Israel to fork over land which was ceased in wars initiated by the Islamic powers. The Islamic world and Palestinian battle will never end until Israel is gone. You can give them the western hemisphere and it still won't matter.

You are sure not going to get any truth from the Israeli lobby. Or from Arab websites either. There is a large and ever accumulating set of injustices on both sides.

Oh yes, now double back to the "it's everybody's fault" argument.


Wake up.

 

[Jhhnn]

As I pointed out, repeatedly, Israel hasn't allowed the Palestinian leadership enough for that leadership to gain the confidence and control over their people. Yet you still argue in the same circle, RichardE, pointing out that Olmert has offered some of the same empty and ineffective "concessions" as offered in the past, knowing full well that they're insufficient.

While I'm sure many Israelis want peace, they're apparently unwilling to make any sacrifice, take any risk at all, pressure their govt enough to move towards it in any meaningful way. They want new condos in the formerly Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem more... and they want to appease their own radicals as well, so they just keep chewing away at palestinian territory and resources- one field, one olive grove, one well, one power plant, one bypass road at a time...

Israel has repeatedly sacrificed security for territory, and will continue to do so unless some great external pressure is brought to bear, some truly great threat to their security arises. That will only come from an awakening of the people in the US to the simple fact that we traded one state of denial, about the holocaust, anti-jewish sentiment and what that can bring about for another just as dangerous- denial as to what our Israeli friends are doing and their methods for accomplishing it...

That won't happen any time RSN, but it will happen, and I'd suggest that the Israelis would do well to change their ways before it does.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
As I pointed out, repeatedly, Israel hasn't allowed the Palestinian leadership enough for that leadership to gain the confidence and control over their people. Yet you still argue in the same circle, RichardE, pointing out that Olmert has offered some of the same empty and ineffective "concessions" as offered in the past, knowing full well that they're insufficient.

While I'm sure many Israelis want peace, they're apparently unwilling to make any sacrifice, take any risk at all, pressure their govt enough to move towards it in any meaningful way. They want new condos in the formerly Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem more... and they want to appease their own radicals as well, so they just keep chewing away at palestinian territory and resources- one field, one olive grove, one well, one power plant, one bypass road at a time...

Israel has repeatedly sacrificed security for territory, and will continue to do so unless some great external pressure is brought to bear, some truly great threat to their security arises. That will only come from an awakening of the people in the US to the simple fact that we traded one state of denial, about the holocaust, anti-jewish sentiment and what that can bring about for another just as dangerous- denial as to what our Israeli friends are doing and their methods for accomplishing it...

That won't happen any time RSN, but it will happen, and I'd suggest that the Israelis would do well to change their ways before it does.

You ask Israel to sacrifice there lives for peace. That cannot be done. As much as I believe Jews and arabs are equal on a humanitarian level and would love to see laws of equality not only passed but enforced. The concessions that the people of Palestine want are suicidal to Israel without any iron gurantees and proof that more violence will not result from that. You say I argue in circles, but like you there is only one main point that each side needs. Israel wants peace, for out markets not to be bombed, for our borders not to be used as zones of Iran/Syrian fueled tension. Palestine says they need the land in order to restore peace to there people, how will they do that with more land, when they cannot control the land they have?

I appologize if it seems like we are arguing in circles, because we are. Israel needs Palestine to stop trying to kill her in order for Israel to make concessions, you say Israel needs to drop her defences in order for Palestine to be able to make her people stop trying to kill Israel. After all the hate from the Palestinian leaders of not stopping until Israel is detroyed, is it really that far fecthed for us to believe that as soon as we drop our defenses Palestine with the help of Iran and Syria will come in for the coup de grace.

The Palestinian leadership rode into power on a wave of Israel hate along with the fact they provided infrastructure to palestine. They need to stay in power when disuading the hate that got them there, will keeping up the humanitarian purposes that won the hearts of the Palestinians in the first place. Saying Israel needs to drop her defenses for them to do that is madness.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
As I pointed out, repeatedly, Israel hasn't allowed the Palestinian leadership enough for that leadership to gain the confidence and control over their people. Yet you still argue in the same circle, RichardE, pointing out that Olmert has offered some of the same empty and ineffective "concessions" as offered in the past, knowing full well that they're insufficient.

While I'm sure many Israelis want peace, they're apparently unwilling to make any sacrifice, take any risk at all, pressure their govt enough to move towards it in any meaningful way. They want new condos in the formerly Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem more... and they want to appease their own radicals as well, so they just keep chewing away at palestinian territory and resources- one field, one olive grove, one well, one power plant, one bypass road at a time...

Israel has repeatedly sacrificed security for territory, and will continue to do so unless some great external pressure is brought to bear, some truly great threat to their security arises. That will only come from an awakening of the people in the US to the simple fact that we traded one state of denial, about the holocaust, anti-jewish sentiment and what that can bring about for another just as dangerous- denial as to what our Israeli friends are doing and their methods for accomplishing it...

That won't happen any time RSN, but it will happen, and I'd suggest that the Israelis would do well to change their ways before it does.

You ask Israel to sacrifice there lives for peace. That cannot be done. As much as I believe Jews and arabs are equal on a humanitarian level and would love to see laws of equality not only passed but enforced the concessions that the people of Palestine want are suicidal to Israel without any iron gurantees and proof that more violence will not result from that. You say I argue in circles, but like you there in only one main point that each side needs. Israel wants peace, for out markers not to be bombed, for our borders not to be used as zones of Iran/Syrian fueled tension. Palestine says they need the land in order to restore peace to there people, how will they do that? I appologize if it seems like we are arguing in circles, because we are. Israel needs Palestine to stop trying to kill her in order for Israel to make concessions, you say Israel needs to drop her defences in order for Palestine to be able to make her people stop trying to kill Israel.

The Palestinian leadership rode into power on a wave of Israel hate along with the fact they provided infrastructure to palestine. They need to themselves stay in power when disuading the hate that got them there, will keeping up the humanitarian purposes that got them there in the first place. Saying Israel needs to drop her defenses for them to do that is madness.

Shhh...everyone is allergic to truth here...