Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
Because that would be the death of the political career of anyone with the balls to propose it
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
We wouldn't want to inconvenience them.
Our blind support for Israel has hurt all parties involved. I think if we pushed Israel to make peace, not with encouragement, but by cutting off aid, they would make peace really quick.
US has no business supporting an apartheid state that is perpetually occupying palestinian territories without either absorbing them or letting them be free. Israel has to decide. If Palestinian territories are part of Israel, than Palestinians are Israeli citizens, and Israel won't be a Jewish majority state. If they are not part of Israel, then Israel needs to leave. They can't keep denying Palestinians their civil rights just because they don't want them as citizens, but also don't want to let go of their land.
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
We wouldn't want to inconvenience them.
Our blind support for Israel has hurt all parties involved. I think if we pushed Israel to make peace, not with encouragement, but by cutting off aid, they would make peace really quick.
US has no business supporting an apartheid state that is perpetually occupying palestinian territories without either absorbing them or letting them be free. Israel has to decide. If Palestinian territories are part of Israel, than Palestinians are Israeli citizens, and Israel won't be a Jewish majority state. If they are not part of Israel, then Israel needs to leave. They can't keep denying Palestinians their civil rights just because they don't want them as citizens, but also don't want to let go of their land.
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
Because that would be the death of the political career of anyone with the balls to propose it
so true. this thread is so sh!tty, as it as been consumed by a bunch of idiots who like to change the subject everytime Israel appears as the bad guy. If this was a suicide bombing thread....we'd be on page 3 by now.
speaking of suicide bombings - wht's the difference between a suicide bomber and a shiny helicopter??
Don't give me the crap that suicide bombers target the innocent while Israelis target "terrorists" - or what any unbias intellectual would interpret as a militant?
We all know the Palestinian casualties are higher than that of the Israelis. Oh wait, no we don't. Most of your Israeli Friendly media outlets don't make that fact as apparent as it would have been if things were reversed. Instead they'll make stupid ratios of the matter and make arguments like the percentage of Israeli women who die is higher than that of palestinian women in respect of total deaths in each group. They'll make it seem like the Israelis are the victims. How can Israel be the victim and the one at a disadvantage when it is backed (unconditionally) by America??
They make it seem like Israel tries to play it fair while the Palestinians keep fvcking things over by their unrelentless suicide bombers. It seems that people like Corn buy into that crap quite easily by ignoring Israeli aggression. How pissed would your jewish wife get if you showed a little compassion towards the real victims, the Palestinians? heh.
thanks for validating the value i place on your opinions. IT's practically non-existant at this point.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
We wouldn't want to inconvenience them.
Our blind support for Israel has hurt all parties involved. I think if we pushed Israel to make peace, not with encouragement, but by cutting off aid, they would make peace really quick.
US has no business supporting an apartheid state that is perpetually occupying palestinian territories without either absorbing them or letting them be free. Israel has to decide. If Palestinian territories are part of Israel, than Palestinians are Israeli citizens, and Israel won't be a Jewish majority state. If they are not part of Israel, then Israel needs to leave. They can't keep denying Palestinians their civil rights just because they don't want them as citizens, but also don't want to let go of their land.
Well, they don't call it revisionist history for nothing. Let's see, if Israel is an apartheid state, why are there over 1 million Arab citizens? If Israel is an apartheid state, why are there Arabs in the Knesset? Can any other ME country claim to have Jewish citizens involved in its government? Lastly, why would you go out of your way to call Israel an apartheid state, while ignoring the fact that it is surrounded by Arab countries who are the very definition of an apartheid (or even a genocidal) state.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
We wouldn't want to inconvenience them.
Our blind support for Israel has hurt all parties involved. I think if we pushed Israel to make peace, not with encouragement, but by cutting off aid, they would make peace really quick.
US has no business supporting an apartheid state that is perpetually occupying palestinian territories without either absorbing them or letting them be free. Israel has to decide. If Palestinian territories are part of Israel, than Palestinians are Israeli citizens, and Israel won't be a Jewish majority state. If they are not part of Israel, then Israel needs to leave. They can't keep denying Palestinians their civil rights just because they don't want them as citizens, but also don't want to let go of their land.
Well, they don't call it revisionist history for nothing. Let's see, if Israel is an apartheid state, why are there over 1 million Arab citizens? If Israel is an apartheid state, why are there Arabs in the Knesset? Can any other ME country claim to have Jewish citizens involved in its government? Lastly, why would you go out of your way to call Israel an apartheid state, while ignoring the fact that it is surrounded by Arab countries who are the very definition of an apartheid (or even a genocidal) state.
Originally posted by: SuperTool
People in occupied territories don't have same rights as Israeli citizens. Therefore it's Apartheid state. It is occupying a territory for decades without giving the occupied citizenship or their own state, so they are essentially stateless and rightless. Now if that's not a definition of apartheid, I don't know what is.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: ElFenix
how come we don't tie foreign aid and support to israel with their following of our peace plan?
Because that would be the death of the political career of anyone with the balls to propose it
so true. this thread is so sh!tty, as it as been consumed by a bunch of idiots who like to change the subject everytime Israel appears as the bad guy. If this was a suicide bombing thread....we'd be on page 3 by now.
speaking of suicide bombings - wht's the difference between a suicide bomber and a shiny helicopter??
Don't give me the crap that suicide bombers target the innocent while Israelis target "terrorists" - or what any unbias intellectual would interpret as a militant?
We all know the Palestinian casualties are higher than that of the Israelis. Oh wait, no we don't. Most of your Israeli Friendly media outlets don't make that fact as apparent as it would have been if things were reversed. Instead they'll make stupid ratios of the matter and make arguments like the percentage of Israeli women who die is higher than that of palestinian women in respect of total deaths in each group. They'll make it seem like the Israelis are the victims. How can Israel be the victim and the one at a disadvantage when it is backed (unconditionally) by America??
They make it seem like Israel tries to play it fair while the Palestinians keep fvcking things over by their unrelentless suicide bombers. It seems that people like Corn buy into that crap quite easily by ignoring Israeli aggression. How pissed would your jewish wife get if you showed a little compassion towards the real victims, the Palestinians? heh.
thanks for validating the value i place on your opinions. IT's practically non-existant at this point.
Well, don't let facts and science get in the way of your perceived reality. That's what you are dismissing as "stupid ratios".
Read this report and then tell me these things don't matter. If you discount science and statistics, then you've lost the argument.
Analysis
I suppose you could make the claim that statistics can be manipulated. However, I have not seen anything, which even resembles a rebuttal by the Palestinians in regards to this information.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: SuperTool
People in occupied territories don't have same rights as Israeli citizens. Therefore it's Apartheid state. It is occupying a territory for decades without giving the occupied citizenship or their own state, so they are essentially stateless and rightless. Now if that's not a definition of apartheid, I don't know what is.
Why should they have the same rights as Israeli citizens? They were never part of Israel. They were a declared separate entity as defined by a British Mandate. The Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries did not like this and decided to invade Israel. The Arabs lost and have been crying about it ever since. Countries that have decided to move on to an extent, such as Egypt and Jordan have tended to prosper while others, such as Syria and the Palestinians have only dug a deeper hole for themselves. You see, blaming others for your predicament never solves the problem.
Curiously, I wonder what would have become of the Jews in Israel had they lost any of the Wars. Would they be full-fledged Citizens of Palestine or Jordan? Would they even exist today? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Originally posted by: DBL
Analysis
I suppose you could make the claim that statistics can be manipulated. However, I have not seen anything, which even resembles a rebuttal by the Palestinians in regards to this information.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: SuperTool
People in occupied territories don't have same rights as Israeli citizens. Therefore it's Apartheid state. It is occupying a territory for decades without giving the occupied citizenship or their own state, so they are essentially stateless and rightless. Now if that's not a definition of apartheid, I don't know what is.
Why should they have the same rights as Israeli citizens? They were never part of Israel. They were a declared separate entity as defined by a British Mandate. The Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries did not like this and decided to invade Israel. The Arabs lost and have been crying about it ever since. Countries that have decided to move on to an extent, such as Egypt and Jordan have tended to prosper while others, such as Syria and the Palestinians have only dug a deeper hole for themselves. You see, blaming others for your predicament never solves the problem.
Curiously, I wonder what would have become of the Jews in Israel had they lost any of the Wars. Would they be full-fledged Citizens of Palestine or Jordan? Would they even exist today? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
South Africa had Black citizens. The US had black citizens. Doesn't mean you can't have a second class citizen.
BTW: Iran has spots in its parliament reserved for members of the Jewish community by its constitution.
huh?Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: DBL
Why should they have the same rights as Israeli citizens? They were never part of Israel. They were a declared separate entity as defined by a British Mandate. The Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries did not like this and decided to invade Israel. The Arabs lost and have been crying about it ever since. Countries that have decided to move on to an extent, such as Egypt and Jordan have tended to prosper while others, such as Syria and the Palestinians have only dug a deeper hole for themselves. You see, blaming others for your predicament never solves the problem.
Curiously, I wonder what would have become of the Jews in Israel had they lost any of the Wars. Would they be full-fledged Citizens of Palestine or Jordan? Would they even exist today? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
They would be in Brooklyn.
If Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel, Israel needs to abandon the settlements and leave. If they are part of Israel or Israel intends to occupy them indefinitely, Israel needs to give citizenship and full rights to the Palestinians. They can't have it both ways. If they are occupying a land indefinitely, but not giving the people full rights, it's apertheid.
Originally posted by: DBL
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
South Africa had Black citizens. The US had black citizens. Doesn't mean you can't have a second class citizen.
BTW: Iran has spots in its parliament reserved for members of the Jewish community by its constitution.
Sounds like you are a little unclear as to the definition of apartheid. It's a state sponsored policy of segregating racial groups. As far as I know, Israel has no such policy.
Iran, huh? Wow, what an example of Liberty and freedom for all.Most of Iran's Jews left and emigrated to Israel after the Islamic revolution of 1979 due to persecution and religious violence.
The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its anti-Zionist position.
Read more here...
Iranian Jewish History
Wow. That's quite an example you chose to enlighten us with.
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: DBL
Well, don't let facts and science get in the way of your perceived reality. That's what you are dismissing as "stupid ratios".
Read this report and then tell me these things don't matter. If you discount science and statistics, then you've lost the argument.
Analysis
I suppose you could make the claim that statistics can be manipulated. However, I have not seen anything, which even resembles a rebuttal by the Palestinians in regards to this information.
wow, thanks for proving my point. The brilliant research department at ICT (probably spent 20 min. of googling to come up w/ these numbers) show percentages of noncombatant deaths and whatnot to make the Palestinians look bad And Israelis look good. In this world of oversimplified news, Good Vs. Evil type mentality, why is it when it comes to Israeli vs. Palestinian deaths, we resort to more complicated percentages of death?
Originally posted by: DBL
huh?Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: DBL
Why should they have the same rights as Israeli citizens? They were never part of Israel. They were a declared separate entity as defined by a British Mandate. The Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries did not like this and decided to invade Israel. The Arabs lost and have been crying about it ever since. Countries that have decided to move on to an extent, such as Egypt and Jordan have tended to prosper while others, such as Syria and the Palestinians have only dug a deeper hole for themselves. You see, blaming others for your predicament never solves the problem.
Curiously, I wonder what would have become of the Jews in Israel had they lost any of the Wars. Would they be full-fledged Citizens of Palestine or Jordan? Would they even exist today? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
They would be in Brooklyn.
If Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel, Israel needs to abandon the settlements and leave. If they are part of Israel or Israel intends to occupy them indefinitely, Israel needs to give citizenship and full rights to the Palestinians. They can't have it both ways. If they are occupying a land indefinitely, but not giving the people full rights, it's apertheid.
Israel occupies these areas for self-defense. Until the violence and terrorism committed by the Palestinians subsides, I see no reason why Israel has to do any of the things you mentioned.
Originally posted by: cumhail
Originally posted by: DBL
Analysis
I suppose you could make the claim that statistics can be manipulated. However, I have not seen anything, which even resembles a rebuttal by the Palestinians in regards to this information.
Asking for a "rebuttal" of that is somewhat akin to asking for a rebuttal of the points made at the Wannsee conference. I don't know if the percentages and ratios are correct or not... and I very much doubt that anyone seeking to make a human, let alone humane, assessment of the situation would care to check and argue them, point by point. The painstaking detail put into itemizing and categorizing the deaths, on both sides, serves only to dehumanize the situation and trivialize the meaning of their lives, a step that always come before an Endlösung-style argument can be conceived of.
The Israeli civilians who have died in the latest uprising, and over the last 54 years or so, are human beings... the Palestinian civilians who have died in the latest uprising, and over the last 54 years, or so, are human beings. And one death, on either side, is too much. But rather than work toward a solution to the problem, far too many of us would rather argue the politics of it... argue the justification of it... argue the history of it... argue the details of it (right down to the minutia of what percentage of what group each death falls into).
I'm sorry, DBL... but until people like this Don Radlauer start putting as much effort, care, and dedication into finding solutions that truly benefit all sides involved, and benefit humanity itself, history is going to keep repeating itself and all any of it will amount to is the chapter in history books that we all read, but never quite fully internalize and understand, about what befell the European Jews in the last century and the Native Americans in the past few.
cumhail
So Apartheid in the name of self defense is OK? Self defense is now an excuse for open ended occupation and denying occupied people's statehood or any rights of citizenship?Originally posted by: DBL
Israel occupies these areas for self-defense. Until the violence and terrorism committed by the Palestinians subsides, I see no reason why Israel has to do any of the things you mentioned.