Israel says time is not "right for the Arab region to go through democratic process"

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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Hopefully, the religious extremists will not be allowed to control any of the countries that are trying to sprout, deomocracy led or not.

What could possibly go wrong?

Wu5b0.png


http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf

Not will they I suspect this is lead by fundis and secular/economics angle is a ruse for western consumption. Fools eat it up. Only time will tell.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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So, if a couple middle-eastern countries said they 'had to stop the spread of Nazism' and started a 20-year war against Canada, killing millions of Canadians, until the war got too costly and they left and later said 'oops, we didn't really understand the issues with Canada, but our fundamentalists had political power and wanted war'...

Would that be 'fundamentalist people taking power' and a disaster, or pretty much the Vietnam war from France and the US again?

Funny how when THEY do it - or even don't, but we speculate that they might - it's horrible, and when we do it, there are all kinds of excuses for it.

Funny, now we're scared of democracy - but backing torturing dictators, is ok.

How about we try something new, and not use the CIA and our wealth to try to put a dictator in place, and let their democracy and culture develop?

Our statements have been too phony about supporting the 'people' while our policies have supported their oppression.

Funny, we could influence things more as they love our television shows and movies - which show a different culture where the stonings we're afraid of are not ok.

Of course, we have nothing to learn from other countries - our highest in the world imprisonment, being one of the top in executions, our weakened safety net compared to other wealthy countries, our being the largest arms dealer in the world as millions are killed - these are all things where the world should be more like us.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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I find it amazing that yllus rests his case on just past Egyptian perfidy to Palestinians. Israel, in 1948, expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians in 1948, and only a lucky 50,000 made it into Egypt. And while Nasser treated them decently, post Nasser leadership did not.

All the proves is that Israel may be the greatest Palestian Villain, but the combined Arab record is not stellar either. Worse yet for the yllus position is that a billion a year in Washington bribes to only Mubarak, Mubarak, and Mubarak started in 1979 to maintain Egyptian complicity with Israel.

Well now it very much looks like Mubarak is toast, his people are pissed with him, and his corruption and betrayal. And yet yllus still maintains Egyptian perfidy regarding Palestinians will remain a cornerstone of any new Egyptian leadership.

Yet point granted, no one ever asked you, Loki, or I, but we will soon see which of our speculations are closer to what ACTUALLY happens.
So the lucky 50K made it into Egypt. The unlucky others that did not go to another country were herded into camps by Egypt and kept isolated.

Seems like Egypt did not want much to do with the Palestinians even though they particpated in creating the problem.

Then they say that it is Israel's problem to solve?
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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Israel, in 1948, expelled at least 750,000 Palestinians in 1948, and only a lucky 50,000 made it into Egypt.


did 750k actually get expelled?


how many left because they wanted to avoid the war?

how many left because they thought the arab nations would win?

how many fought back against the jews?

how many actually WERE expelled?



neither you, nor I, nor anyone in the world has an answer to the 4 above.

to think all 750k is the answer to one, while leaving 0 to the three others is nonsense.


i KNOW all 750k people who were moved from their homeland in 1948 fall under at least one of the 4 of those categories.


now do you honestly believe all 750k were forced out by israel's hand?
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,728
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What could possibly go wrong?

Wu5b0.png


http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Muslim-Report-FINAL-December-2-2010.pdf

Not will they I suspect this is lead by fundis and secular/economics angle is a ruse for western consumption. Fools eat it up. Only time will tell.

I'll agree with you, Z, that the #'s for human rights in a new Egyptian Democracy might not look that great. But, WTF are we gonna do about it? It becomes Egypt's problem, and Egypt's alone.

It's one thing to champion Democracy around the world. It's quite another to accept the fact that different cultures are going to do things with their self-determination that might seem abhorrent to us. Whether it's death penalites for adultery and apostasy and/or adoption of hardcore Soclialism... if it's what the people want... let them stew in their pot.

America likes lots of dumbass shit that destroys lives, like for-profit-only healthcare. And a privatized penal-industrial complex. And we stew in our pot as a consequence.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
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I'll agree with you, Z, that the #'s for human rights in a new Egyptian Democracy might not look that great. But, WTF are we gonna do about it? It becomes Egypt's problem, and Egypt's alone.

It's one thing to champion Democracy around the world. It's quite another to accept the fact that different cultures are going to do things with their self-determination that might seem abhorrent to us. Whether it's death penalites for adultery and apostasy and/or adoption of hardcore Soclialism... if it's what the people want... let them stew in their pot.

America likes lots of dumbass shit that destroys lives, like for-profit-only healthcare. And a privatized penal-industrial complex. And we stew in our pot as a consequence.


death penalty for adultery and such is so far backwards, its considered human rights issues and not "freedom and democracy" issues.

i think thats the problem people are feeling
 

TareX

Member
Jan 10, 2011
177
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I agree with numbers like this:
Wu5b0.png


Democracy without individual rights means two wolves and sheep deciding dinner and will have real life and death consequences for being different.

Would you want your mother or daughter born in fundiville? Where they get beaten when raped unless they have 4 male witnesses? Where they have to be chaperoned everywhere and follow 6 paces behind man?

As an Egyptian who's lived in Egypt for 18 years, I can tell you that -for the Egypt part at least- this graph is utter BS.

Thank you.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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As an Egyptian who's lived in Egypt for 18 years, I can tell you that -for the Egypt part at least- this graph is utter BS.

Thank you.

On the one hand, I've been sympathetic to your posts; and they seem consistent with the images from Egypt's uprising, that seem consistent with what you say.

Just today, there was a report from Egypt that the protesters wanted to keep the uprising secular, and when a few people began to chant as Muslims, others confronted them in disagreement. They have been remarkable to watch, showing a passion for democracy.

But on the other hand, I looked to see if this poll was from some anti-Muslim group, and it's not, it's from Pew, who seems reputable. So, it's an issue to reconcile the two.

Here's a link to the poll, that paints a pretty compelling picture of nations in the region on a variety of issues.

Its results seem somewhat consistent and on some issues, are more on your side of the picture, it doesn't show support for Muslim fundamentalism on everything - but it does show that the people like a strong Muslim religious role in government as a general statement, if not particular groups or leaders.

Can you help reconcile why your experiences are very different than the poll?

http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/#prc-jump
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The ever clueless EK says, "Seems like Egypt did not want much to do with the Palestinians even though they particpated in creating the problem.

Then they say that it is Israel's problem to solve?"

And if EK was somehow a hair more smarter, he would realize that a billion a dollar a year US bribes to Mubarak alone has bought Israel and the USA exactly nothing.

Gotta love those semi phony Muslim statistics when 100&#37; of defacto Israeli policy is based on past total theft of Palestinian land and property.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
4,394
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Gotta love those semi phony Muslim statistics when 100% of defacto Israeli policy is based on past total theft of Palestinian land and property.

What does kosher have to do with Palestine?

GOT YA!

Israel needs to learn that they can't have more land, and that they are as important and serious as any other country in the Mid-East (not very).
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
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The ever clueless EK says, "Seems like Egypt did not want much to do with the Palestinians even though they particpated in creating the problem.

Then they say that it is Israel's problem to solve?"

And if EK was somehow a hair more smarter, he would realize that a billion a dollar a year US bribes to Mubarak alone has bought Israel and the USA exactly nothing.

Gotta love those semi phony Muslim statistics when 100% of defacto Israeli policy is based on past total theft of Palestinian land and property.


skipped right over my post i see
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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The ever clueless EK says, "Seems like Egypt did not want much to do with the Palestinians even though they particpated in creating the problem.Then they say that it is Israel's problem to solve?"

And if EK was somehow a hair more smarter, he would realize that a billion a dollar a year US bribes to Mubarak alone has bought Israel and the USA exactly nothing.

Gotta love those semi phony Muslim statistics when 100&#37; of defacto Israeli policy is based on past total theft of Palestinian land and property.

Who created the camps in Gaza and kept the Palestinians locked in there for 20 years?

There was no US $$ going to Egypt until after the '73 war.

Link
(Reuters) - The United States has given Egypt an average of $2 billion annually since 1979, much of it military aid, according to the Congressional Research Service. The combined total makes Egypt the second largest recipient of U.S. aid after Israel.

So for 30 years what was the excuse for how Egypt treated the Palestinians.

Russian or Saudi $$.

or the truth - Prejudice


The money going to Egypt was intended to convince Egypt to not start something that they lose out again.

The US $$ going to Israel protected the Palestinians from being treated the way the Arabs treated them.
It also gave the US a say in the response level to any military action that Israel took against those that attacked her.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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For Israel, better the devil you know, than the one you do not.

So, it's ok to support a dictator and oppose democracy in another country, if it helps you.

Gotcha. Yet another righty who says the pledge of allegiance while fighting democracy.

All these people who throw principles in the trash and grab ahold of whatever seems to serve their short term interest - people under a dictator, sure, fine, they're Muslim.

That's why nukes are fine - for us, no them; being an arms merchant, fine for us, not them; forcing puppets over others, fine for us, not them, and so on.

That's not American - it's a thug in the world who spits in the face of American values wanting to be the latest 'rule with tyranny' force, while pretending otherwise.

Pretty much every tyranny claimed the same justifications - stability, etc.

Edit: I'm not saying we should not dislike if the people of a country choose bad policies/leaders. I am saying that thinking that we have the moral right to deny democracy to them and impose tyranny on them for our benefit is a problem. We have plenty of more moral ways to influence - not to mention how corrupt interests make up 'foreign threats'.

How hysterical did we get about 'threats' to our south - Cuba, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Honduras, even Grenada - using massive force, tyranny, even terrorism as our policies for what was really the protection of our corporations to exploit the people there, wrapping our own murderous evil in the name of 'liberty' and 'freedom' to hide what we did?

The one real 'threat' that did happen - the near-nuclear war trigger over Soviet missiles in Cuba - was more a result of our policy of massive terrorism against Cuba (while denying it all), even while we were hypocritical about our own missiles on the border of the USSR in Turkey we refused officially to get rid of while demanding the USSR removed theirs.

The US has a bad history of turning nations who just want a little justice and fairness in how they're treated into enemies by insisting on exploiting and tyrannizing. Most of our armed conflicts since WWII - and many earlier like the invasion of the brand new USSR around 1917 - were about 'preventing examples of any country not doing as they're told'.

Read the internal memos around Cuban policy from the moment Batista was overthrown - they justified terrorism, assassination, on the grounds that there was a danger other South American nations' citizens would get the idea they didn't have to put up with extreme oligarchies kept in power serving US corporations. Cuba's threat was not for Castro's army to march and conquer Washington D.C., but for them to even be there as an example for nations to say 'we can have a little justice, too', against very oppresive right-wing regimes and US companies. Same reason we had the left-wing President of Chile replaced by the dictator Pinochet - after the US corporation taking Chile's number one economic resource, their copper, had the government of Chile say 'no more, Chile keeps more of the money from it'; why we did it in Guatemala, and many, many other cases - including Grenada. We'd already declared 'economic war' on Cuba, who was highly dependent on the US trade after 60 years as an effective US colony.

We don't have the right to tell Egypt, 'you have to live under a dictator who represses you, to serve our interests'. It's about time we treat the people of Egypt with a bit of fairness - and watch the situation improve. Or did the English monarchy have the right to tyranny over the US, to serve its foreign policy interests?
 
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Oct 30, 2004
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Given what the Palestinians did in Jordan, Egypt may have a can of worms with Gaza.

While opening the borders may be nice; do you think that the people in Gaza are going to sit on their thumbs and stay, or will they take off into Egypt and the political try a second coming similar to what Arafat did in Beruit?

If a chunk of politicals leave Gaza, will they try to pull what they did in Jordan?

Maybe this would be the best thing that could happen for the region. All of the Palestinians could leave Palestine for greener pastures in Egypt amongst their Arab brothers and they could become Egypt's problem. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they received much worse treatment at the hands of the Egyptians than they received from the Israelis.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Given what the Palestinians did in Jordan, Egypt may have a can of worms with Gaza.

While opening the borders may be nice; do you think that the people in Gaza are going to sit on their thumbs and stay, or will they take off into Egypt and the political try a second coming similar to what Arafat did in Beruit?

If a chunk of politicals leave Gaza, will they try to pull what they did in Jordan?

Maybe this would be the best thing that could happen for the region. All of the Palestinians could leave Palestine for greener pastures in Egypt amongst their Arab brothers and they could become Egypt's problem. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they received much worse treatment at the hands of the Egyptians than they received from the Israelis.
Remember, it was Egypt that conquered Gaza in the '48 war.
They were the ones that created the camps.
They controlled Gaza until the '67 war. Israel did not take Gaza from Egypt - Egypt gave it to Israel.

So since the '48 war; it has been Egypt that has kept the Palestinians locked up in Gaza instead of allowing them into the Arab world. Egypt has controlled the borders and embargo just as much as Israel; yet for a longer time.



w/ respect to Egypt; Israel has the right to be concerned as to what type of government will emerge. They still can see what happened in Iran when the people took over - it was then ursurped by the religous fanatics :(