Israel pounding the war drums to attack Iran ahead of the US election.

[Jhhnn]

You have a convoluted opinion of our influence over Israel......they will do as they please and if they do feel their very existence is threatened they will act without consulting anybody...

Well, if they can do as they please regardless of the interests of their protector, then why act as their protector?

Why should we hold their interests above our own?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well, if they can do as they please regardless of the interests of their protector, then why act as their protector?

Why should we hold their interests above our own?

Your claims are outrageous and bogus........
Did we intervene militarily or go to the aid of Israel during any of the military attacks by the Arabs on Israel?

The UN is entirely different in terms of countries choosing sidees and countries trying to impose their influence in order to further agenda. Which happens on both sides.....

You act like it is so gregarious for the US to veto UN resolutions against Israel....those mushrooms you are eating must be top quality....


We both know that the UN should be disbanded.......its not good for very much...

 

[EagleKeeper]

None of that counters what I originally offered in the slightest. The US has protected Israel from the wrath of the international community many times. The US has also rushed to provide spare parts, ordnance & diplomatic support when Israel needed them.

Hence, coattails.

Conveniently ignoring the cause and effect of the situation.

Israel does not really give a hoot about the wrath of the international community.
they have seen the attitude from before she became a state and afterwards.

The Us supports an ally; just like the Arabs were sent supplies, intelligence by the Soviets.

Or should Israel rolled over in '48. I am sure the UN would have done something about it to the Arab nations that participated.

 

[EagleKeeper]

No, he wants the Zionist regime destroyed, just like a lot of Jews and Israelis do

At present the Zionist regime is and has been part of and built into Israel.

He can not get rid of the regime without the destruction of Israel; they end up being one and the same.

Israel in turn wants to get rid of Iran's nuclear threat. That is not a destruction of Iran.
Is that then a similar concept?


Get rid of the cancer by killing the cancerous cells and accepting that there will be collateral damage to the living tissue/cells around it.

How you you get rid of the Israeli cancer.
Israel has a way to get rid of the Iranian cancer.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Therefore, it would be an extreme violation of our trust & friendship for Netanyahu to attack w/o our say-so.

A violation to not let us know.

We should have no absolute control over their decisions; they are not a colony of the US but an ally.

They have been proved right with respect to two other nuclear facilities.
They have sat still for WMD launched at them out of friendship of an ally.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Even if Achminejad, the man everyone loves to hate is a serial motormouth, Achmadinejad has no real power inside Iran. Neither Iranian legislators or the Mullahs of Iran who hold the real Veto power inside Iran pay any attention to Achmadinejad.

And that matter, Achmadinejad is very unpopular inside Iran because his economic policies totally failed. And as it is, the Mullahs have called Achmadinejad onto the carpet quite a few times recently.

But still Achmadijad stays simply because he deflects critism away from the Mullah's as useful whipping boy. As something others would call a running dog. Lots of loud barking attracts attention, But still all bark and no real bite.

Or another way to put it US dog owners, do you let your dogs set your agenda?

Even if he is a puppet; the puppet master determines what he is allowed to state.

His statements are with their blessing.

The power behind the throne controls the messages from the throne.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well, if they can do as they please regardless of the interests of their protector, then why act as their protector?

Why should we hold their interests above our own?

When out interests are common we work together.

Israel has helped the US. The US helps Israel.

Every country looks out for itself first.

When Israel was attacked; you did not see the US step in to repel the attackers.

You put your troops on the line when it is felt to be needed.
You assist you ally when needed.

You do not cut your throat for an ally. Allies can change. Until they change; you treat them as one.
Look at what has just happened in Egypt and Libya.
We helped them and they reciprocated .

 

[tommo123]

Israel attacks Iran
Iran vaunted missiles are ineffective (for one reason or another)
Hezbollah and Hamas go after Israel in retaliation.
Israel cleans out the rat trap finally with full justification.

Iran blusters closing the straights.
Others call the bluff.

Iran folds or attempts a blockade - the blockade drives up the price of oil for a little while and destroys the Iranian coastal ports if any weapons are launched against shipping.

you forgot long term guerilla war against israel and further terrorist actions due to them starting an unjustified war. iran only wants nukes. israel has them and has no right to decide iran shouldn't. same as any country that has them inc the united states.

full justification? really? that's like me attacking you, waiting for you to strike back and killing you claiming self defence. i'm goading you into an action.

disclaimer, i don't give a crap about any country bar the one i'm in (which is england at this present moment) so if war does break out i won't shed any tears for persians or israelis that die in said stupid war as both sides are full of retards that want war while the innocent will end up suffering.

 

[Harabec]

LL is one of the biggest haters and warmongers I've ever seen.
Anyway...this "zoinist regime" you speak of is composed of 120 elected politicians, all with different backgrounds including israeli arabs who regularly speak against everyone else but guess what, they haven't been put in some unnamed prison yet.

This "zoinist regime" also provides education, work and many basic services to jews, muslims, christians, all of them. Israel is an extremely diverse country. It isn't perfect, but which country is? This isn't World of Carebear.

 

[EagleKeeper]

you forgot long term guerilla war against israel and further terrorist actions due to them starting an unjustified war. iran only wants nukes. israel has them and has no right to decide iran shouldn't. same as any country that has them inc the united states.

full justification? really? that's like me attacking you, waiting for you to strike back and killing you claiming self defence. i'm goading you into an action.

disclaimer, i don't give a crap about any country bar the one i'm in (which is england at this present moment) so if war does break out i won't shed any tears for persians or israelis that die in said stupid war as both sides are full of retards that want war while the innocent will end up suffering.

starting an unjustified war

???

Who sponsors the Hamas and Hezbollah groups as well as props up Syria?

A country has a right to defend itself.
Iran has been attacking Israel via it's proxies.
The Iranian leadership has been threatening Israel.

Each has the right to defend itself in their own way.
If they choose to defend via offensive; so be it.
Iran has already been doing it against the Israeli population.
If Israel does not target the population; good for them.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Your claims are outrageous and bogus........
Did we intervene militarily or go to the aid of Israel during any of the military attacks by the Arabs on Israel?

In 1973, Kissinger negotiated the end to the Yom Kippur War, which had begun on October 6, 1973 when Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. Kissinger has published lengthy and dramatic telephone transcripts from this period in the 2002 book Crisis. One week later, under Nixon's direction, and against Kissinger's initial opposition,[38] the US military conducted the largest military airlift in history to aid Israel on October 12, 1973. US action contributed to the 1973 oil crisis in the United States and its Western European allies, which ended in March 1974.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#1973_Yom_Kippur_War

the US military conducted the largest military airlift in history to aid Israel on October 12, 1973 and then we all had to suffer the consequences with the oil crisis

When you post these claims, and call others bogus..are you just unaware or are you always just trying to hide the truth?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Israel is an extremely diverse country. It isn't perfect, but which country is?

Absolutely
It's too bad so many posters here can't see this
I've never seen any of the American Jewish posters here apologize for settler actions or ultra orthodox, yet have no problem grouping Muslims all into one group

 

[EagleKeeper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger#1973_Yom_Kippur_War

the US military conducted the largest military airlift in history to aid Israel on October 12, 1973 and then we all had to suffer the consequences with the oil crisis

When you post these claims, and call others bogus..are you just unaware or are you always just trying to hide the truth?

Israel began receiving supplies via US Air Force cargo airplanes on October 14,[262] although some equipment had arrived on planes from Israel's national airline El Al before this date. By that time, the IDF had advanced deep into Syria and was mounting a largely successful invasion of the Egyptian mainland from the Sinai, but had taken severe material losses. According to Abraham Rabinovich, "while the American airlift of supplies did not immediately replace Israel's losses in equipment, it did allow Israel to expend what it did have more freely"

The resupply gave Israel more options; at the time of the resupply; they had already beaten back the Egyptians and Syrians. It also provide the US with some leverage.

As I have always said; cut off the US support to Israel and you also lose any influence into Israeli actions w/ respect to the ME.
The US is not going to dump Israel anyhow; so at least retain some counsel with them.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I've never seen any of the American Jewish posters here apologize for settler actions or ultra orthodox, yet have no problem grouping Muslims all into one group

In general I am not posting in P&N any more -- at least not until some rational rules and moderation are reimposed -- but as one of the few people on this board openly Jewish, I feel compelled to point out that many, if not most, American Jews do indeed disagree with much of what the Israeli government, the ultra-orthodox, and the settlers are doing. Jews, like any group, are not monoliths, and there are very large differences of opinion between the right-leaning likudniks in Israel and most American Jews, who are generally liberal or moderate. That's not to say that American Jews don't support Israel, but many would prefer to see changes in the government's approach and behavior (sort of like how many of us feel about our own government!)

 

[woolfe9999]

The OP bases his claim for war based on an article that clearly does not back up his claims. I posted a relevant part from it. So "definitely" applies to the current situation while Iranian bluster and refusal to take nuclear power that won't get it a bomb is coincidence? If Israel wanted to attack there is nothing more needed. BOOM! Since it hasn't happened there are obviously other considerations in play. If Israel wants to start a war they are going about it in a whole new level of stupid.

The OP is delusional. Forget about opinions. He gets the FACTS wrong in almost every case pertaining to this issue.

What I want to know is, when will the Israel hating crowd who repeatedly argues here that Israel is going to attack Iran finally man up and eat their words? The Netanyahu regime is just rattling sabres to spur the international community to pressure Iran with more extreme sanctions, or to intimidate Iran to back down and accept a deal regarding its nuclear program. They are NEVER going to attack because they know that on their own, they cannot do enough damage to justify the negative consequences of the attack. I've been saying this for years. The Israel haters have been saying the opposite. I bet they never eat their words even if Israel has not attacked 10 years from now, because they don't have the maturity to man up and admit they were wrong.

- wolf

 

[Orignal Earl]

In general I am not posting in P&N any more -- at least not until some rational rules and moderation are reimposed -- but as one of the few people on this board openly Jewish, I feel compelled to point out that many, if not most, American Jews do indeed disagree with much of what the Israeli government, the ultra-orthodox, and the settlers are doing. Jews, like any group, are not monoliths, and there are very large differences of opinion between the right-leaning likudniks in Israel and most American Jews, who are generally liberal or moderate. That's not to say that American Jews don't support Israel, but many would prefer to see changes in the government's approach and behavior (sort of like how many of us feel about our own government!)

I like your posts Charles, it would be unfortunate and a loss to this forum if you quit posting.
There have been a lot of very good Muslim posters that have tried to type some sense here too and have been run off/ gave up.
It leaves this sub forum sitting in a wasteland of ignorance

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The OP is delusional. Forget about opinions. He gets the FACTS wrong in almost every case pertaining to this issue.

What I want to know is, when will the Israel hating crowd who repeatedly argues here that Israel is going to attack Iran finally man up and eat their words? The Netanyahu regime is just rattling sabres to spur the international community to pressure Iran with more extreme sanctions, or to intimidate Iran to back down and accept a deal regarding its nuclear program. They are NEVER going to attack because they know that on their own, they cannot do enough damage to justify the negative consequences of the attack. I've been saying this for years. The Israel haters have been saying the opposite. I bet they never eat their words even if Israel has not attacked 10 years from now, because they don't have the maturity to man up and admit they were wrong.

- wolf

Hate is a powerful and active emotion. It's not all bad though. I hate what happened in Egypt in Libya. I hate just about everything about it, but I don't hate the Egyptians. Some do. Likewise some have to hate the Israelis because they pick them for whatever reason. Hate is good if it serves as a carefully channeled motivator for justice. That does not mean that creating hate in others for a purpose is acceptable. I mean a personal thing, perhaps not hate as many understand the word.

Unchained and without thought it's a monster. That is too often what we see.

 

[PJABBER]

In general I am not posting in P&N any more -- at least not until some rational rules and moderation are reimposed -- but as one of the few people on this board openly Jewish, I feel compelled to point out that many, if not most, American Jews do indeed disagree with much of what the Israeli government, the ultra-orthodox, and the settlers are doing. Jews, like any group, are not monoliths, and there are very large differences of opinion between the right-leaning likudniks in Israel and most American Jews, who are generally liberal or moderate. That's not to say that American Jews don't support Israel, but many would prefer to see changes in the government's approach and behavior (sort of like how many of us feel about our own government!)

Personally, I think you should continue to engage in this forum as we really need to have a variety of views expressed, and I, for one, value a diversity of opinion.

Especially as we are quickly approaching even more troubling times.

Islam should not be considered purely a "religion," as so many posters here like to refer to it. It is a political philosophy and the Koran is basically a collection of writings that are Muhammed's guide to his followers on how deal with each other, but mostly how to conquer and rule.

Much like the distinctions between the Christian Old and New Testaments, the Koran can be divided into two sequential periods of writing.

In the first writings, derived out of his time in Mecca, Muhammad was a persecuted figure standing up to the local establishment. Here he is more tolerant out of fear for his life and his writings are more accommodating of others similarly oppressed.

Once he runs away to Medina and starts to be a political head and commander of violent conquest, you get the violent rhetoric and the instructions on how to deal with unbelievers and the conquered.

When there is any conflict between the earlier, Mecca based, writing and the later, Medina based, writing the more recent, more violent, more intolerant Medina prescriptions override. Hence, the proclivity for violence, the calls for conquest and enslavement of unbelievers that we are all too familiar with.

Western liberalism and Islamic fundamentalism are incompatible. Western tolerance is useful only to the extent it provides an opening to introduce Islam.

Now that the Muslim Brotherhood has gained political dominance in Egypt, they have moved very quickly replaced all officials and military commanders that are not members. They are now in the process of replacing mid-level bureaucrats and officers. They are also suppressing the Christian minorities that once had some modicum of freedom. Once all of that is done, we will see another Islamic Republic similar to the one that controls Iran.

I am not an optimist here. Islam is expansionist and colonial. They will sacrifice many lives on the path of conquest.

How Western liberal states (in the original sense of that word, since our modern liberals seek accommodation with intolerant Islam and will reap eventual servitude or death should their passivity prevail) deal with this developing threat will determine how likely they are to survive.

It is time to pick sides and allies, and I would rather stand with a democratic Israel than the totalitarian state that is being formed under the flag of Islam.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Thanks for the kind words, but it's not worth the aggravation when there are so many people here who can't reason, and every thread degenerates to dull mudslinging without any consequences for the perpetrators.

I'll be on the tech boards here, but for politics I'll be on my own site, at least until this subforum gets under control. It's much smaller, and it leans too far left for my liking, but at least the discussions are worthwhile.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I am not an optimist here. Islam is expansionist and colonial. They will sacrifice many lives on the path of conquest.

How Western liberal states (in the original sense of that word, since our modern liberals seek accommodation with intolerant Islam and will reap eventual servitude or death should their passivity prevail) deal with this developing threat will determine how likely they are to survive.

It is time to pick sides and allies, and I would rather stand with a democratic Israel than the totalitarian state that is being formed under the flag of Islam.

Which Islamic states have expanded and colonialized as much as Israel has over the last 4, 5 decades?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Thanks for the kind words, but it's not worth the aggravation when there are so many people here who can't reason, and every thread degenerates to dull mudslinging without any consequences for the perpetrators.

I'll be on the tech boards here, but for politics I'll be on my own site, at least until this subforum gets under control. It's much smaller, and it leans too far left for my liking, but at least the discussions are worthwhile.

this sub forum is not going to get under control

TPTB have determined that quantity is more critical than the quality.

Where once one was slapped for pissing in the pool; it is now encouraged.


It only takes a few to pollute and that type of pollution is encouraged.
To rail against it is a losing cause.

 

[Lemon law]

Regardless of what we think or side with, I read the Netanyuhu statement as saying if no one else joins Israel in a pre emptive strike on Iran, Isreal reserves the right to do it alone and very soon.

Regardless if its bluff and bluster or a very real threat, is pure speculation at this point.

But if it materalizes as a unilateral Israel attack on Iran, we may well have our answer and very soon. As then new speculation may come in terms of will the USA and Nato refuse to join in with Israel and will Iran be able to badly damage Israeli infrastructure in the justified counter attack and force Israel to call off further air strikes. As every industrialized country that depends on oil will worry that the oil supply will be disrupted.

 

[Blintok]

all this mess reminds me of a comic i saw once. cant remember if it was Dennis the Menace or Calvin and Hobbes. some kid hits some other kid. and the line went something like.. it looked like he was going to hit me, so i hit him back first

 

[Jhhnn]

The OP is delusional. Forget about opinions. He gets the FACTS wrong in almost every case pertaining to this issue.

What I want to know is, when will the Israel hating crowd who repeatedly argues here that Israel is going to attack Iran finally man up and eat their words? The Netanyahu regime is just rattling sabres to spur the international community to pressure Iran with more extreme sanctions, or to intimidate Iran to back down and accept a deal regarding its nuclear program. They are NEVER going to attack because they know that on their own, they cannot do enough damage to justify the negative consequences of the attack. I've been saying this for years. The Israel haters have been saying the opposite. I bet they never eat their words even if Israel has not attacked 10 years from now, because they don't have the maturity to man up and admit they were wrong.

- wolf

I don't think they'll attack, either, depending on the geo-political calculus, not because of their own inclinations, at all.

Whether their fanbois like it or not, whether they're willing to acknowledge it or not, Israel is a client state of the US. They depend heavily on us for trade, arms, ordnance, spare parts & diplomatic cover in the UN.

If Netanyahu thought he could drag us into it, early on, he'd attack. He's not sure he can with Obama, so if he can obtain assurances from the Romney camp, he'll use the occasion of his UN visit to stir the shit in the election.

If Obama wins after that, Netanyahu's fortunes at the White House will sink lower than whale shit.