"Israel must be wiped off the map."

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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<snip>

As for Iran ruled by religious Mullahs, and a primarily youth dominated society now fed up with religious kooks, in my mind, the Iranian Mullahs are just begging to go the way of the Shah.

If this happens, then a reduction in tensions may well happen.

However, the last uprising in Iran led by the youths only aggravated the tensions in the region leading up to the point where we are now.:\
 
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StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
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Islam destroys entire countries. At least Turkey smartened up long ago and made itself a secular state.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Islam destroys entire countries.

That can fit a number of things. Would you like a list of 50 entire countries destroyed by Western policies like installed dictators, puppets, corrupt relationships?

Is our own country, not destroyed but greatly harmed, by our own corruptions of monied interest, from our paid-for democracy to our Wall Street-controlled economy?

When countries become 'Islamic religious states', I find it generally is a nightmare for our ideals of 'freedom of religion' and a more liberal view of human rights. I strongly oppose the merging of religion and government in that manner for any group, while defending their rights to religious freedom as citizens.

We have a lot to fix in our own society - we're not yet able to defeat the monied corruption - before we go telling others just to follow our lead.

In fact, the Arab Spring is shaming Western democracies in how strongly they represent democratic principles of the people opposing corrupted leadership.

We're about to have another typical election between two corporate-sponsored choices for President, without the people doing anything much to fight the situation.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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We have a lot to fix in our own society - we're not yet able to defeat the monied corruption - before we go telling others just to follow our lead.
Not really. Sometimes I overeat. Today at work I ate several cookies and felt bad about it (not that bad, damn they were yummy). Does this mean I cannot criticize a person prostituting themselves for crack?

It seems almost no end of countries that need to be militarily put to sleep and Syria is surely at the top of the list now next to Libya. Perhaps if Turkey does something (I doubt it), they'll do a better job than the epic cluster fvck going on in Libya. Five months now and they still cannot get rid of Gadhafi. This is what happens when you half-ass something.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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If this happens, then a reduction in tensions may well happen.

Ya, maybe the people there could overthrow the tyrants, and elect a representative of the people who isn't corrupt - then the US could get along with them well.

Like Salvador Allende. Or Daniel Ortega. Or countless others.

Oh wait, no we can't. We tend to get along with leaders who sell out to us.

Remember how the Shah got in power in the first place? They HAD that 'better government' - and we got rid of it and put the Shah in.

However, the last uprising in Iran led by the youths only aggravated the tensions in the region leading up to the point where we are now.:\

Tensions tend to get aggravated in uprisings.

The corrupt Mullahs only gained power because of our installing the Shah.

Perhaps this 'Arab Spring', which seems a 'people's movement' so far, might help there.

Problem is, of course, it today's world, this 'people's democracy' rebelling stuff seems to work mostly in the rare cases the military doesn't protect the leaders.

Thousands of courageous citizens killed by those militaries show the difficulty in actually bringing change that way.

In Iran, analysts say there seems to be a chance for the Mullahs to be overthrown. Hopefully that's the case, and they can get a better government than since 1953.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I look at it slightly different, for the past 500 years we have been living in a colonial era, and now we are transitioning to a post colonial era. Muslims may be the last to throw off the colonial yoke, but status quo powers are very slow to realize past tactics no longer work.

Those nations that take advantages of changes will in future prosper, but sadly, and to my dismay, I find my countries leadership doing quite the opposite. Bleeding blood and treasure in a futile effort to preserve a world that will never come back.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Not really. Sometimes I overeat. Today at work I ate several cookies and felt bad about it (not that bad, damn they were yummy). Does this mean I cannot criticize a person prostituting themselves for crack?

This isn't eating cookies. What kind of cookies? I miss Mother's Iced Raisin cookies and flaky flix.

We killed millions of people for no good reason in Vietnam given our issues. Which Muslim country has done that? That's not eating cookies.

This is you simply having a strong bias in how you weight the issues - the same thing many supporters of Muslim states would do the other direction.

Sad fact is, a history of the west with hundreds of corrupted governments empowered for the west's interests gets a big yawn from many Americans; not from those people.

It seems almost no end of countries that need to be militarily put to sleep and Syria is surely at the top of the list now next to Libya. Perhaps if Turkey does something (I doubt it), they'll do a better job than the epic cluster fvck going on in Libya. Five months now and they still cannot get rid of Gadhafi. This is what happens when you half-ass something.

Funny enough, Libya had practically become an 'acceptable' state, too. Over the last decades they spent billions for victims of terrorism, leading to Bush to sign a law giving immunity to Libya for all lawsuits by terrorist victims, ending all pending lawsuits. They'd been taken off the 'terrorist nation watchlist'. Senators like John McCain were visiting Qadafi praising him.

Then the uprising came. It shows how these issues aren't easy. Are leaders supposed to just resign when there's an uprising? When parts of Libya were seized by rebels, was Qadafi not supposed to defend the government's control of the positions? It gets tricky, between the lines of 'we don't much like a regime' to supporting its overthrow; between a government's right to defend against rebellion, and brutal killing of its own citizens; between protestors, rebels and revolutionaries; between the US interests in siding with the people's right to self-determination, and the US interest in not having its allies, like decades-long Mubarak, think the US will abandon them easily. This is a way for the US to get caught looking out of touch supporting Mubarak earlier.

I supported the use of force to protect Libyans from slaughter by the Libyan government. But these issues aren't easy. Criticizing the government is.

Are we supposed to run around deposing and assassinating leaders 'just because' there is a rebel element in their country? Are we supposed to do nothing in the face of the slaughter of the people who are revolting? How about demonstrating? An old saying now is 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter'. And any issue you say is 'ok' to use force for, will often be misused by corrupt interests to put corrupt people in place.

Diem was the US choice for Vietnam; and he was widely viewed as terribly corrupt and repressive of the rights of Buddhists to the point he couldn't govern effectively.

The *same administration* in the US did two things: it had a coup in which Diem was removed from power; and a little while earlier had the Vice-President visiting Diem and saying to the press that Diem was 'the Winston Churchill of Southeast Asia', giving him huge praise.

I could contrast quotes in the last year or two by American leaders praising Qadafi with our actions now people like you seem to say aren't strong enough to assassinate him.

It's easy to sit in your armchair and demand we go kill all the 'bad leaders'. Makes a pretty good case for American foreign policy being suspected, elected by you.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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TLC : It is no secret that United States does not like the fact that Iran has an independent economy, control of its own oil and politics and would like very much to punish this independence. Iran has been threatened many times in scenarios ranging from bunker buster bombs to tactical nukes at its industrial facilities and yet no one questions how easily these scenarios can be spoken while Iran is condemned over a fictitous or alleged intent of hostility.
If Iran had a truly democratic society that didn't oppress their people, allowed freedom of expression for all, and didn't have designs on destroying Israel through their puppet proxies the US wouldn't have the least problem with them. In fact, we would very likely be big supporters and allies, just as we have been with the secular side of Turkey over the years. Unfortunately Iran is controlled by a cadre of radical religious extremists and no election in Iran is ever going to change that until the power in Iran is taken away from the Mullahs.

Creating excuses to bomb a country is ridiculous.
I don't see any serious discussion in the US government that calls for bombing Iran.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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The 1953 Iranian coup d'&#233;tat (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[1]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.[2] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rez&#257; Sh&#257;h Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.[3]

Hey guys I found the root of all the problems in Iran. And then we wonder why people hate us in that region of the world. Basically we removed a democratically elected government and installed a dictatorship, interesting how this is coming back to bite us in the ass.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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The 1953 Iranian coup d'&#233;tat (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[1]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.[2] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rez&#257; Sh&#257;h Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.[3]

Hey guys I found the root of all the problems in Iran. And then we wonder why people hate us in that region of the world.

Yeah, we went to all that effort and then they do this:
The Iranian Revolution (also known as the Islamic Revolution or 1979 Revolution;refers to events involving the overthrow of Iran's monarchy (Pahlavi dynasty) under Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and its replacement with an Islamic republic under Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the leader of the revolution.

And then they wonder why we hate them.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
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Basically we removed a democratically elected government and installed a dictatorship, interesting how this is coming back to bite us in the ass.
[/SIZE]

Yup, it's really biting us in the ass. They sure showed us:
h2FDZ.jpg
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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Yeah, we went to all that effort and then they do this:


And then they wonder why we hate them.
We have no reason to hate them, in fact if we cherish democracy so much we should apologize for being douche bags to them and destroying their democracy. Because of our retarded actions, a corrupt leader was able to rise up and gain power. YAY!
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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Nebor, stop being a dickhead, plain and simple. We need to stop interfering in people's businesses. If another country came to the U.S. and removed our government and installed a dictatorship would your response be the same?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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Nebor, stop being a dickhead, plain and simple. We need to stop interfering in people's businesses. If another country came to the U.S. and removed our government and installed a dictatorship would your response be the same?

We interfere in other people's business because it helps our business, or at least we believe it will. We act in self interest and expect other nations to do the same.

I would die LONG before a foreign nation removed our government.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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The 1953 Iranian coup d'état (known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup[1]) was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom and the United States under the name TPAJAX Project.[2] The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rez&#257; Sh&#257;h Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.[3]

Hey guys I found the root of all the problems in Iran. And then we wonder why people hate us in that region of the world. Basically we removed a democratically elected government and installed a dictatorship, interesting how this is coming back to bite us in the ass.
I hate this shallow, bullshit revisionism about what was really going on in Iran at the time. Try reading about what Mossadegh was really doing by trying to take control of the military and all of Iran in the process, an act not remotely related to Democracy, and then get back to everyone when you have some actual facts in hand instead of glossing over the facts of the situation.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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We interfere in other people's business because it helps our business, or at least we believe it will. We act in self interest and expect other nations to do the same.

I would die LONG before a foreign nation removed our government.
We interfere in other peoples business and then when they retaliate we label the terrorists and bomb them. Gotcha.

I hate this shallow, bullshit revisionism about what was really going on in Iran at the time. Try reading about what Mossadegh was really doing by trying to take control of the military and all of Iran in the process, an act not remotely related to Democracy, and then get back to everyone when you have some actual facts in hand instead of glossing over the facts of the situation.
Is this our problem? Does Iran have a missile that can reach U.S.? No. Does Iran have a Navy that can scratch us? No. Does Iran have anything that can hurt us in anyway? No. Is Iran being an imperialistic nation and need a beat down? No.

Then why should we care about Iran. If it's because of Israel, we are really stupid to think that Iran can so much as put a scratch on Israel. The moment Israel feels threatened by Iran they will take care of Iran in minutes. They won't even ask us, they'll just do it.

Also the facts are pretty straight forward buddy, something happened in Iran we didn't like so we decided to change it. People in that region got pissed at us so people like Ayatollah Khomeini used this to their advantage and came to power. Now we want to bomb them because we believe that they are training terrorists to kill our soldiers in Iraq, another bullshit war we are stuck in. So enlighten me in where I am wrong.
 
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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
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We interfere in other peoples business and then when they retaliate we label the terrorists and bomb them. Gotcha.


Is this our problem? Does Iran have a missile that can reach U.S.? No. Does Iran have a Navy that can scratch us? No. Does Iran have anything that can hurt us in anyway? No. Is Iran being an imperialistic nation and need a beat down? No.

Then why should we care about Iran. If it's because of Israel, we are really stupid to think that Iran can so much as put a scratch on Israel. The moment Israel feels threatened by Iran they will take care of Iran in minutes. They won't even ask us, they'll just do it.

I think you're discounting the deteriorating relations with Pakistan, and the already terrible relations with Iran, coupled with our opportune occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
iraqexitstrategy.jpg


Once Iran is under wraps, we can subduePakistan, then string the 4 countries together under one new government, and call it Amerikastan. ():)
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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I think you're discounting the deteriorating relations with Pakistan, and the already terrible relations with Iran, coupled with our opportune occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
iraqexitstrategy.jpg


Once Iran is under wraps, we can subduePakistan, then string the 4 countries together under one new government, and call it Amerikastan. ():)
not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 
Sep 12, 2004
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We interfere in other peoples business and then when they retaliate we label the terrorists and bomb them. Gotcha.


Is this our problem? Does Iran have a missile that can reach U.S.? No. Does Iran have a Navy that can scratch us? No. Does Iran have anything that can hurt us in anyway? No. Is Iran being an imperialistic nation and need a beat down? No.

Then why should we care about Iran. If it's because of Israel, we are really stupid to think that Iran can so much as put a scratch on Israel. The moment Israel feels threatened by Iran they will take care of Iran in minutes. They won't even ask us, they'll just do it.

Also the facts are pretty straight forward buddy, something happened in Iran we didn't like so we decided to change it. People in that region got pissed at us so people like Ayatollah Khomeini used this to their advantage and came to power. Now we want to bomb them because we believe that they are training terrorists to kill our soldiers in Iraq, another bullshit war we are stuck in. So enlighten me in where I am wrong.
What a switch in gears. Backpedal much? First you were waxing on about democracy in Iran and Mossadegh and now you jump to some crap about missiles reaching the US?

Don't waste my time with such disjointed, craptastic arguments, "buddy." All that demonstrates is that you can toss a load of crap against the wall trying in vain to find something that sticks but can't actually backup any arguments you make because you don't really know the history and realpolitik of the situation.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
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What a switch in gears. Backpedal much? First you were waxing on about democracy in Iran and Mossadegh and now you jump to some crap about missiles reaching the US?

Don't waste my time with such disjointed, craptastic arguments, "buddy." All that demonstrates is that you can toss a load of crap against the wall trying in vain to find something that sticks but can't actually backup any arguments you make because you don't really know the history and realpolitik of the situation.
You don't even have an argument against what I am saying. I am saying it's none of our business how other countries run their state. If they elected Mosaddegh as their Prime Minister who the hell are we to go in and change the will of their people? It's not our business or job.

I did read up on Mosaddegh and it seems like the UK was mad about losing control of the Iranian Oil industry so they came to the US for help. We didn't actually help them until Eisenhower came in to power and our policy shifted towards Iran because Churchill played on our fears of communism to get us involved. All this bullshit your spewing about how he used the military to gain control is not our problem, what they do in their country is not our problem.

We should only intervene when we are directly affected by the actions of other countries or groups i.e. 9/11, Pearl Harbor etc.
 
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Sep 12, 2004
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Can you recommend and sources for this?
Wikpedia touches on it:

On 16 July 1952, during the royal approval of his new cabinet, Mosaddegh insisted on the constitutional prerogative of the prime minister to name a Minister of War and the Chief of Staff, something the Shah had done hitherto. The Shah refused, and Mosaddegh announced his resignation appealing directly to the public for support, pronouncing that "in the present situation, the struggle started by the Iranian people cannot be brought to a victorious conclusion".

If you read further you will see that many things that Mossadegh did were far from democratic. He was making a power play to grab complete control of Iran. While the Shah was no angel himself Mossadegh was no better, and arguably worse.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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You don't even have an argument against what I am saying. I am saying it's none of our business how other countries run their state. If they elected Mosaddegh as their Prime Minister who the hell are we to go in and change the will of their people? It's not our business or job.

I did read up on Mosaddegh and it seems like the UK was mad about losing control of the Iranian Oil industry so they came to the US for help. We didn't actually help them until Eisenhower came in to power and our policy shifted towards Iran because Churchill played on our fears of communism to get us involved. All this bullshit your spewing about how he used the military to gain control is not our problem, what they do in their country is not our problem.

We should only intervene when we are directly affected by the actions of other countries or groups i.e. 9/11, Pearl Harbor etc.
Iran has a major influence in how other counties and groups run their state. You seem to want to excuse or ignore their own influence while chiding the US for doing the same thing.

So it's wrong when the US exerts influence but it's none of our business when Iran does the same thing?
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,949
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Wikpedia touches on it:



If you read further you will see that many things that Mossadegh did were far from democratic. He was making a power play to grab complete control of Iran. While the Shah was no angel himself Mossadegh was no better, and arguably worse.


Poor zio brainwashed fool not even understanding what is written in the quote he posted ..:D

Here it is again :

On 16 July 1952, during the royal approval of his new cabinet, Mosaddegh insisted on the constitutional prerogative of the prime minister to name a Minister of War and the Chief of Staff, something the Shah had done hitherto. The Shah refused, and Mosaddegh announced his resignation appealing directly to the public for support, pronouncing that "in the present situation, the struggle started by the Iranian people cannot be brought to a victorious conclusion".
In other words he insisted that the minister of war and chief
of staff should be named by the DEMOCRATICALLY elected
governement , not by the Shah who in fact wanted to
control the army as a threat to the governement.


Mossadegh asked no more than to follow the path
of european constitutionnal monarchies in this matter,
not the undemocratic will of the iranian monarch.

Does the queen of UK name the minister of war
and military staff ?...

Now you can return take a full bucket of your beloved
zio brainwashing medics...:D
 
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