Israel: Man Links Arafat to Attacks

[Random Variable]

I know that some people will say that this doesn't prove anything, but that's OK.

Fri May 3, 8:05 AM ET

JERUSALEM (AP) - Israel says a prominent Palestinian leader captured during its recent offensive in the West Bank has told interrogators that Yasser Arafat personally approved funding for weapons to be used in attacks against Israelis.

According to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's office, Marwan Barghouti told his questioners that when a militiaman wanted to carry out an attack, he had to fill out a detailed request for funding and weapons and hand it in to Barghouti, who would sign it and pass it along to Arafat for final approval.

However, the Israelis did not provide transcripts of Barghouti's statements or provide any other evidence to support the report, which was released in a three-page statement from the prime minister's office.

They also would not describe the conditions under which Barghouti is being held. Since his capture, Barghouti has complained to his lawyer that he has been permitted only short periods of sleep and been questioned around the clock for days at a time.

Palestinian officials contacted by The Associated Press declined to comment. In the past, they have repeatedly denied that Arafat approved attacks against Israelis, citing the Palestinian leader's denunciations of attacks against civilians on both sides.

Israel has given the United States documents that it says prove Arafat's direct involvement in terror attacks. However, the Palestinians have dismissed the documents as propaganda.

Captured in the West Bank town of Ramallah on April 15, Barghouti, 41, is the highest ranking Palestinian taken into custody during the West Bank sweep. He is the West Bank head of Arafat's Fatah movement, and is widely believed to be the leader of the Tanzim, the militia wing of Fatah, blamed by Israel for dozens of attacks against Israelis.

The account Thursday from Sharon's office ? which also said that Barghouti said Arafat had to approve every outlay of funds regardless of the amount ? is at odds with what many militants have said previously. Members of the Al Aqsa Brigades, a militia linked to Fatah, have said that they are semiautonomous and did not clear planned attacks with top Palestinian leaders.

Israel has charged that Arafat is responsible for Palestinian violence during 19 months of conflict, saying he encouraged militants and failed to crack down on extremists. The Israelis also say that in recent months, most of the attacks against Israelis have come from groups affiliated with Fatah.

Barghouti gave his account while being interrogated by members of Israel's Shin Bet secret service, Sharon's office said.

 

[Hammer]

If that guy was interrogated by the Shin Bet, he might have said anything. They are extrememly proficient at what they do.

 

[Random Variable]

The only problem with all of this is that the world doesn't give a darn if Arafat is orchestrating and/or funding bombings. They'll still embrace him no matter what he does or doesn't do.

 

[Texmaster]

<< The only problem with all of this is that the world doesn't give a darn if Arafat is orchestrating and/or funding bombings. They'll still embrace him no matter what he does or doesn't do. >>



It also can't change the papers with Arafat's own signature on the documents giving money to the terrorist groups.

And I see he's done nothing to get those jackasses out of the church of nativity.

What a shocker.

 

[justint]

I thought that it was pretty much established that Arafat in essence "Let the dogs out" 18 months ago releasing most of the terrorists he had locked up since 1996 and at the very least looking the other way in regards to terrorist actions.

He pretty much has put himself in a position where he was trying to use the application of violence to gain political concessions. That backfired as it turned the most important player in the Middle East, namely the US against him and cooled the US in general to the Palestinian cause while showing a shocking lack of leadership and vision of any ultimate endgame other than continued violence. He proved in the 90's that he could ellicit significant control over the terrorists and succeded in shutting down Hamas when it was the major oponent to Oslo. To claim that he had no control over this recent escalation is hardly believable. Of course now he is faced with the destruction of his security apparatus and the rise of many different militant groups including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa, who are WORKING TOGETHER unlike any other time in history. He opened Pandoras box with the hope of gaining concessions and failed miserably.


Of course the same can be said of Sharon who did all he could to help inflame passions, and in the last 18 months has pretty much only accomplished gradual escalations in violence, inneffectual military responses to what is at its heart a political problem, and again a shocking lack of leadership. Sharon has always wanted the Palestinians divided, and marginalized so he could cary out his vision of a greater Israel, not only expanding settlements in the West Bank/Judea and Samaria, but even insane moves such as Netzarim in the Gaza Strip. Any Israeli who thinks settlements in Gaza are feasible is nuts. He has gotten what he wants, the Palestinian Authority weakened, and Oslo dead. What he seems to want is the Palestinians weak and divided so he can essentially set up Bantustans ruled by local warlords with whom he could make agreements similar to the situation in South Africa before the fall of Aparthied. Of course, in the process he has also strengthened Yasser Arafats standing amongst the Palestinians to a great extent essentially shooting himself in the foot and radicalized both the Israeli and Palestinian populations.

They are both two old warhorses, one a perpetual revolutionary who can not seem to make the final push to peace, and one the old general who seems to revel in brutal and wasteful wars that have no end in site, geared to his unrealistic and illegal view of an expanded Israel.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>>And I see he's done nothing to get those jackasses out of the church of nativity. <<<

That is an astute observation. It seems to me that if Arafat was serious abourt his concern for the Church of the Nativity, he would be standing at the door of that church exhorting the occupants to surrender to him. That would end the siege. That would give him credibility he so whoefully lacks. I do not understand why this hasn't been called for by now.

I wonder if anyone from the state dept. reads this forum. Hell, we have more brainpower here then anywhere in the administration. Surely if they listen to us, this terrorism issue will be over.

 

[justint]

Triplepower...actually that is what Arafat has been asking for, but it is a lot more complicated than that.

The PA, under Arafat has insisted that the wanted Terrorists ~28-30 out of the 180 people remaining in the church be turned over to Palestinian custody to face Palestinian courts. (This does not include the priests, nuns, and civilians) He would love it if Israel let the wanted people inside be surrendered to him. Of those approximately 8 are seriously wanted by Israel due to alleged direct involvement in terror attacks. The sad part is most of the people in the Church are just Palestinian policeman who ran into it to avoid being rounded up when the Israelis entered the town, in fact the Isralis have been letting everyone who has walked out so far go with a simple ID check, some with thier weapons.

The problem arises as Israel demands those people be turned over to them for trial which the Palestinian Authority adamantly refuses to do due to the precedent it would set of weakning Palestinian authority and perhaps painting them as collaborators.

Negotiations are ongoing, between the PA and the Israelis to resolve it. What will probably happen is a similar resolution to the one in which US and British guards took custody of Palestinian prisoners from Arafats compound. This compromise was a brilliant and brave move by the administration and State Department (who according to you lacks the combined brainpower of the ATOT forum). It allows the Palestinians to maintain sovreignity over thier own people and assures Israel that wnated terrorist suspects do not get to walk through what has in the past 18 moths been a revolving door of Palestinian justice.

I hope they can resolved it soon, before someone get scarried away and burns the whole place down which would be tragedy for the cultural and religious history of the whole world.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Actually the PA, under Arafat has insisted that the wanted Terrorists ~28-30 out of the 180 people remaining in the church be turned over to Palestinian custody to face Palestinian courts. (This does not include the priests, nuns, and civilians) He would love it if Israel let the wanted people inside be surrendered to him. Of those approximately 8 are seriously wanted by Israel due to alleged direct involvement in terror attacks. The sad part is most of the people in the Church are just Palestinian policeman who ran into it to avoid being rounded up when the Israelis entered the town, in fact the Isralis have been letting everyone who has walked out so far go with a simple ID check, some with thier weapons.

The problem arises as Israel demands those people be turned over to them for trial which the Palestinian Authority adamantly refuses to do due to the precedent it would set of weakning Palestinian authority and perhaps painting them as collaborators. Negotiations are ongoing, between the PA and the Israelis to resolve it. What will probably happen is a similar resolution to the one in which US and British guards took custody of Palestinian prisoners from Arafats compound.

I hope they can resolve it soon, before someone get scarried away and burns the whole place down. >>



I've read articles that say the opposite. That these men who so cowardly took hostage an entire church are the worst of the worst Israel wants them all.

 

[justint]

Actually Texmaster, I believe that I am correct in stating that Israel only wants a select group of those inside. The rest haven't done anything even the armed gunmen who are being allowed to leave unmolested by the IDF. If they wanted everyone, they wouldn't be allowing them to leave would they?

Israel does not want them all by any means. This article lists the composition of the people inside. The claims that the Palestinians are holding people hostage have been denied by the priests inside the church (who I tend to trust) and by the fact that civilians have been walking out when hunger and the circumstances become too much, 4 more civilians walked out today. Unfortunately a lot of civilians had the misfortune of seeking sanctuary in the Church when the invasion started and are still there.

Excerpt from JPOST

So far 89 people have succeeded in leaving the church compound: 48 civilians and Palestinian gunmen, 19 wounded, and 16 monks. In addition, the bodies of another six individuals have been removed from the compound. The IDF estimates 150 people remain inside, of whom 30 to 40 are wanted by Israel for questioning and are affiliated with Tanzim and Hamas

Excerpt from CNN

Israel says the key issue in the standoff is the fate of up to 40 "senior terrorists," whom Israel wants to put on trial or send into exile. The Palestinians have rejected that proposal.



Jpost Article

CNN Article

 

[Texmaster]

<< Israel does not want them all by any means. This article lists the composition of the people inside. The claims that the Palestinians are holding people hostage have been denied by the priests inside the church (who I tend to trust) and by the fact that civilians have been walking out when hunger and the circumstances become too much, 4 more civilians walked out today. Unfortunately a lot of civilians had the misfortune of seeking sanctuary in the Church when the invasion started and are still there.

Excerpt from JPOST

So far 89 people have succeeded in leaving the church compound: 48 civilians and Palestinian gunmen, 19 wounded, and 16 monks. In addition, the bodies of another six individuals have been removed from the compound. The IDF estimates 150 people remain inside, of whom 30 to 40 are wanted by Israel for questioning and are affiliated with Tanzim and Hamas

Excerpt from CNN

Israel says the key issue in the standoff is the fate of up to 40 "senior terrorists," whom Israel wants to put on trial or send into exile. The Palestinians have rejected that proposal.



Jpost Article

CNN Article >>



I'm not sure what your point is. Your articles do prove that the Israelis want the soldiers in the prison.

I'm not saying that Israel wants the priests.

 

[justint]

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course they don't want the priests. that was never in question. I also dispute your claim that anyone is being held hostage in there. The claims of the priests and the civillians who have come out have disputed that fact. It is only the Israeli military that is claiming hostages have been taken with no confirmation from the people inside.


I thought that you were implying that all the armed Palestinians in there were terrorists. This is not true. Only up to forty of them are even suspected of being terrorists. The rest are policemen and militia men who took refuge in the church from the invasian.

 

[Texmaster]

<< I'm not sure what your point is. Of course they don't want the priests. that was never in question. I also dispute your claim that anyone is being held hostage in there.The claims of the priests and the civillians who have come out have disputed that fact. It is only the Israeli military that is claiming hostages have been taken with no confirmation from the people inside. >>



I never said they were. I said they took the entire church hostage and they did. I wasn't referring to the people.

But now that you bring it up I have no doubt they are using those people as human shields.



<< I thought that you were implying that all the armed Palestinians in there were terrorists. This is not true. Only up to forty of them are even suspected of being terrorists. The rest are policemen and militia men who took refuge in the church from the invasian. >>



Nope that wasn't my point at all.

 

[justint]

BTW Tex, you need to correct the spelling of the word "professional" in your sig.

 

[justint]

Oh I understand now with the reference to the church as hostage rather than the people inside. I agree you can argue that position, although I would say they are endangering the site as I can't see exactly how you can take a building hostage if you are ignoring the people inside. I look at it is as more using it as a sanctuary which has been a traditional use of holy places throughout history.

I apologize if I misunderstood your intent. However I was basing my reasoning that you thought all the Palestinians inside were wanted men and terrorists. In the past you seem to genearlize most Palestinians as terrorists, and this is obviously not true. In fact this original post makes no sense if you consider why Israel would let 26 "Terrorists" walk free. Israel does not even want all the armed "soldiers" in this church. In your opinion are all Palestinians terrorists, even if Israel itself does not consider them to be. If that is not the case, please do a little more research before you characterize them as such.

Tex's Thread

You could even see examples of using holy places as sanctuary in American history by American patriots such as the case of the Alamo where Texas rebels took over a Spanish mission which even at that time was an active mission of the Fransiscans with a chapel, hospital, and many monks and priests inside and used it as a fortress against the vastly superior Mexican army. Those rebels could be considered terrorists, using a holy place as a shield.


EDIT: My apologies to Tex I see that later in that thread he admitted that not all the Palestinians inside were terrorists. My mistake.