Israel giving Bush the finger

[Dari]

Not Good
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7171941.stm

Not Helpful
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7169365.stm

Not Constructive
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7172253.stm

I guess the Annapolis meeting was the nominal "help" to Abbas many saw it for, nothing progressive in any way. Now that it's over, it's business as usual in the occupied territories. I wonder what the Palestinian militants are planning as a response? I hope that wall holds up.

 

[lozina]

Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As long as the Middle East exists their will never be peace.

People old enough may remember when there was a "peace process". The stated goal was peace, but it was really to get people to sit down and talk about peace although they would never embrace it. Useless? Not at all. The idea is that if people are discussing things the violence would diminish. It would still happen, but the total carmage was reduced from what it would be otherwise. Why won't there be peace? Because no one wants enough to compromise.

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

Didn't you get the memo? Killing innocent people and creating "settlements" stops terrorism. It worked in the American West!

 

[Moonbeam]

Israel giving Bush the finger

Who the hell do they think they are? Tell them to get in the fucking line.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Both sides are being heinous. Palestinians elements are absolutely wrong for lobbying rockets - and it hurts their image more than anything. Its hard to try to pass off as a genuine partner when there are people who engage in these actions. Israeli Govt is sure as hell damned wrong for trying to continuously grab more land...and their honesty in a real peace process is completely doubtful.

This idea of having a soverign land with pockets of it completely controlled by another nation and the most farked up borders and non delinated borders simply cannot exist. It is CLEARLY established that Palestinians, and most Arab Govt, want 67 borders and will accept Israel on that basis....of 67 borders without this "67 +" b.s. Teclis, can you honestly say that the Israeli Govt is truly trying to help the establishment of a Palestinian State? From my POV, I can say they are trying as hard as possible to prevent it...

 

[teclis1023]

Originally posted by: magomago
Both sides are being heinous. Palestinians elements are absolutely wrong for lobbying rockets - and it hurts their image more than anything. Its hard to try to pass off as a genuine partner when there are people who engage in these actions. Israeli Govt is sure as hell damned wrong for trying to continuously grab more land...and their honesty in a real peace process is completely doubtful.

This idea of having a soverign land with pockets of it completely controlled by another nation and the most farked up borders and non delinated borders simply cannot exist. It is CLEARLY established that Palestinians, and most Arab Govt, want 67 borders and will accept Israel on that basis....of 67 borders without this "67 +" b.s. Teclis, can you honestly say that the Israeli Govt is truly trying to help the establishment of a Palestinian State? From my POV, I can say they are trying as hard as possible to prevent it...

Mago,

I've said time and again that I am completely against settlements, and in general, don't particularly like the Settlers, who I find to be completely insane.

I think that the Israeli government has ebbed and flowed in its support for the Palestinian state, and I have never stated that it is "all the Palestinians". I support a Palestinian state, but unfortunately I think that extremely poor leadership on their part has made that dream almost hopeless. Yassir Arafat was so extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause, yet he created a lasting archetype for the 'freedom fighter,' when in fact he was robbing the Palestinians of millions of dollars and their chance at sovereignty. Hamas is doing the same.

Barak already proposed a return to near greenline borders, and I would support the same being offered today. I would like to see what would happen with new leadership and the same proposal. Can I truly say that the Israeli government is trying to help with the establishment of a Palestinian state? Probably not, though I would argue that it's not their responsibility. The main Israeli responsibility is (rightfully so) to secure and defend their borders and civilians.

I wonder what your views on the Palestinian leadership over the past 40 years is, regarding their attempts toward peace negotiations. I'm truly interested.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

One minute (before Annapolis) Israel is freeing Palestinian prisoners and loosening restrictions. The next minute (after Annapolis) they're building new settlements, invading Palestinian territories and increase the killings. You don't find it a strange coincidence? I know this happens all the time before and after peace conferences, but you don't see this, as lozina pointed out, as clockwork?

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

Sounds like a very restrained response to friggen rockets being launched upon one of your cities. If it was us in the situation and some radical group in Mexico started shooting rockets into Cali and Texas do you have any idea how bad we would tear them up? I can all but promise you that town will cease to exist with the quickness.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

Sounds like a very restrained response to friggen rockets being launched upon one of your cities. If it was us in the situation and some radical group in Mexico started shooting rockets into Cali and Texas do you have any idea how bad we would tear them up? I can all but promise you that town will cease to exist with the quickness.

What, you think we would bomb random houses full of families if some mysterious rocket out of Mexico landed in America, not even hurting anyone? It would be deemed as a criminal act (which it is) and the appropriate authorities would investigate the crime and find the perpetrator. Unfortunately (or conveniently for Israel) the Palestinian police stations have been blown up long time ago including vital communication centers extinguishing any hope of Palestinian authorities from catching the ones responsible for firing the rocket.

Furthermore, the rocket attack you reference is in retaliation for Israeli attacks during the past month, even haaretz states so here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/941713.html

...

The Palestinians who launched Thursday's rocket know this very well. That was the message they intended to send Israel - that they are capable of hurting it. They also sought to respond to Israeli attacks that have killed dozens of Palestinians in the last month, most of them terrorists.

Of course they have to try and say "most of them terrorists". Though good luck trying to find the court which evaluating evidence and convicted those Palesitnians of terrorism...

It's a shoot first ask questions later policy they prefer

 

[Lemon law]

The whole idea here was for Israel to support Abbas, marginalize Hamas, and move towards a viable Palestinian State. As it is, the Annapolis peace conference has tabled the question of Israeli expansion of settlements.

Yes the OP is probably correct, this is Israel giving Bush the finger, its likely to collapse the peace conference, the first talks in seven years, and I was really hoping that this would bear some fruit. And its right ahead of a scheduled GWB visit to the mid-east, where it now makes his job of trying to broker progress much more difficult.

If GWB could have pulled off some progress in the mid-east, it would have added something to his legacy. Now it looks like those dreams are in ashes.

Its no secret I am not a GWB fan, but this ain't about partisan politics, this is about the entire world losing.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Israel giving Bush the finger

Who the hell do they think they are? Tell them to get in the fucking line.

:laugh:

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

Sounds like a very restrained response to friggen rockets being launched upon one of your cities. If it was us in the situation and some radical group in Mexico started shooting rockets into Cali and Texas do you have any idea how bad we would tear them up? I can all but promise you that town will cease to exist with the quickness.

What, you think we would bomb random houses full of families if some mysterious rocket out of Mexico landed in America, not even hurting anyone? It would be deemed as a criminal act (which it is) and the appropriate authorities would investigate the crime and find the perpetrator. Unfortunately (or conveniently for Israel) the Palestinian police stations have been blown up long time ago including vital communication centers extinguishing any hope of Palestinian authorities from catching the ones responsible for firing the rocket.

Furthermore, the rocket attack you reference is in retaliation for Israeli attacks during the past month, even haaretz states so here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/941713.html

...

The Palestinians who launched Thursday's rocket know this very well. That was the message they intended to send Israel - that they are capable of hurting it. They also sought to respond to Israeli attacks that have killed dozens of Palestinians in the last month, most of them terrorists.

Of course they have to try and say "most of them terrorists". Though good luck trying to find the court which evaluating evidence and convicted those Palesitnians of terrorism...

It's a shoot first ask questions later policy they prefer

If it was a rocket, maybe. Rockets? Hell no, we would be sending in the marines. We would tell them that if they can't secure their country well enough that a group of people can't fire rockets at us then we will do it for them.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Darwin333

If it was a rocket, maybe. Rockets? Hell no, we would be sending in the marines. We would tell them that if they can't secure their country well enough that a group of people can't fire rockets at us then we will do it for them.

That's the problem right there. Palestine is a territory controlled by Israel. It is not a country. The Israelis can come and go as they please. 40 years of fighting has shown that this conflict can never be solved militarily. Diplomacy works wonders.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Israel giving Bush the finger

Who the hell do they think they are? Tell them to get in the fucking line.

Hahaha, just what I thought. Israel is just joining Turkey, Iran, Russia, China, Japan .....

Can the US survive another year with Bush at the helm or will Uncle Sam croak out of embarrassment first?

It's just about belly slitting time for the old geezer.

 

[Lemon law]

Dari has it nailed with---That's the problem right there. Palestine is a territory controlled by Israel. It is not a country. The Israelis can come and go as they please. 40 years of fighting has shown that this conflict can never be solved militarily. Diplomacy works wonders.

The only errors in the Dari post is that Palestine is now two territories instead of one and Israel, instead of rewarding the good Palestine and punishing the bad, tries the same ole same ole dump on the innocent to spite the guilty. As for diplomacy, its hard to work wonders when all sides are doing their best to reject diplomacy.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
I've said time and again that I am completely against settlements, and in general, don't particularly like the Settlers, who I find to be completely insane.

Surely your criticism would be better directed at those in the government who sponsor the settlement process, rather than the individuals which the government enticed to live in those settlements? Only a small fraction of the settlers are extremists. The majority are law abiding citizens looking for a decent place to live, which their government offers though subsidized housing in the West Bank.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: magomago
Both sides are being heinous. Palestinians elements are absolutely wrong for lobbying rockets - and it hurts their image more than anything. Its hard to try to pass off as a genuine partner when there are people who engage in these actions. Israeli Govt is sure as hell damned wrong for trying to continuously grab more land...and their honesty in a real peace process is completely doubtful.

This idea of having a soverign land with pockets of it completely controlled by another nation and the most farked up borders and non delinated borders simply cannot exist. It is CLEARLY established that Palestinians, and most Arab Govt, want 67 borders and will accept Israel on that basis....of 67 borders without this "67 +" b.s. Teclis, can you honestly say that the Israeli Govt is truly trying to help the establishment of a Palestinian State? From my POV, I can say they are trying as hard as possible to prevent it...

Mago,

I've said time and again that I am completely against settlements, and in general, don't particularly like the Settlers, who I find to be completely insane.

I think that the Israeli government has ebbed and flowed in its support for the Palestinian state, and I have never stated that it is "all the Palestinians". I support a Palestinian state, but unfortunately I think that extremely poor leadership on their part has made that dream almost hopeless. Yassir Arafat was so extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause, yet he created a lasting archetype for the 'freedom fighter,' when in fact he was robbing the Palestinians of millions of dollars and their chance at sovereignty. Hamas is doing the same.

Barak already proposed a return to near greenline borders, and I would support the same being offered today. I would like to see what would happen with new leadership and the same proposal. Can I truly say that the Israeli government is trying to help with the establishment of a Palestinian state? Probably not, though I would argue that it's not their responsibility. The main Israeli responsibility is (rightfully so) to secure and defend their borders and civilians.

I wonder what your views on the Palestinian leadership over the past 40 years is, regarding their attempts toward peace negotiations. I'm truly interested.

Securing a border may sound like just making sure that the shit doesn't land over your line. Many empires ultimately learned that to successfully secure a border, you have to make sure that what exists on the other side of the border is equally as secure. And if the people there are living horrible lives - whether it is Israel's direct responsibility or not - it is in its own interests to ensure that the seas are calm.

Although I would say directly that Israel's right to defend and secure its borders is completely unravel led by preventing the establishment of a Palestinian State. What borders are they defending when they continuously plant more settlementts...errr "neighborhoods" and expand existing ones? Its very hippocriticial (yes I have the Palestinian hippocracy in mind as well) to say they want peace when they do everything to undermine it. I know you are against settlements, but there is a mismatch in boundary.

As for my honest opinion - most Arab leadership has been a monumental failure these past 50 years and I cannot emphasize that or underscore it more. There were a few leaders who had a brain but they were quickly removed...they still had faults but I would say no more than any average leader over here. Most are inept and concerned mostly with enriching themselves while fvcking over their population - their mandate to rule doesn't come from the people but from foreign agents who support them. That already is a HUGE problem when a government only answers to its elite and external agents and has the option to completely bypass the average Ahmed.

I think its interesting how we have different perceptions. To me Arafat was largely a tool who stole money and a hippocrite - he still wanted a Palestine but did not mind skimming money for himself. I think that is what ruined him and that is why I do not like him as a leader because when many Palestinians were starving he was siphoning off milllions...and in Palestine Millions of dollars CAN make a difference. However he still emobodied the image of a Palestinian State and freedom of Arabs. It is much like how the avg Israeli would be Ben Gurion - when to be honest if we have to be object he is easily as poor as Arafat.

I don't necessarily see Hamas in the same way because Hamas made great strides in actually helping people. Its military wing is problematic (however I can easily see how the military wing grew because its hard to simply do good works when you still get bombed left and right...) and I honestly believe that Hamas needs to learn PR. Blowing yourself up, while I can understand the conditions, is still shitty diplomacy and statesmanship and looks completely whack in the eyes of the international community that COUNTS (ie: largely the US...although Palestinians have an uphill battle here in ANY case). It also does not help ANY moral cause you may have, and it will only cause more pain to the other side who may have sympathetic elements that would be wiped out with your actions. What is worse is attacking people who support another political party. I think their real intentions are actually honest - and still believe that is a true deal can be hammered out they will become a much more peaceful movement. The only real risk is that they get more and more radical - and the current treatment of them has resulted in this. We've gone from "100 year treaty" to "zomg suck my ballz ISrael"

ediit:

btw sorry i didnt' even notice this till today...which is why i didn't respond

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Israel giving Bush the finger

Who the hell do they think they are? Tell them to get in the fucking line.

QFT

 

[Engineer]

They're not the only one giving him the finger. I've done it many times!

He always returns the favor.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: teclis1023

Originally posted by: lozina
Well if the usual script is followed like in the past, some whacko militants respond by blowing themselves up in Israel which causes a major International uproar where these provocative incidents by Israel are totally ignored but instead the Palestinians in general are blamed for derailing the peace process...

Gosh, why do these peace-loving suicide bombers get blamed when it's obviously the evil Israelis who are heinously perpetrating the real crime - trying to stop rockets from blowing up school buses and civilians.

Take a look at these "provocative incidents." They're all about STOPPING further attacks.

It's not nearly as simple as anyone wants to make it.

Yes, and nothing stops further attacks better than the peace loving, gentle Israeli army taking the most restrained measure of lobbing tank shells into the homes of entire families, killing a mother and two daughters.

God only knows what the Israeli army would do in an "unrestrained" response- nuke the whole village after a Palestinian boy steals a candy bar?

Sort of like all the Lebanon pictures of dead children and crying mothers..

the same one, in almost a dozen pictures in different places.


Incase you are totally clueless, most people who are waging a gorilla war to kill your woman and children (yes, they have stated this is there target) do not sit in an open field in a house 50km away from any innocents with a big sign saying "here I am". They sit in the most heavy residentially populated area that they can so that when soldiers do come knocking, that people are going to die and they will go down as martyrs.


Maybe you should read the second link fully before sprouting your ignorant rhetoric.


"In the deadliest single attack, a tank shell struck a house, killing five members of the same family.

Two have been claimed by the militant group, Islamic Jihad, as its fighters. The other three, including a mother and daughter, were civilians, medical sources say. "


Oh look, 2 "Jihad" fighters hiding among civilians, my my what a surprise.


And to your pathetic attempt to blanket all of israel as bloodthirsty barbarians waiting to nuke some poor country, why do we use rubber bullets against students?

"At least 19 people have been injured, mostly young stone-throwers hit by rubber bullets, he says."

Perhaps you can read the same things you start salivating over next time.

 

[TheNewbie]

OP, your reference is very weak, BBC is well known in its hostility towards Israel, it usually tends to bend facts or highlight insignificant crap to make Israel look bad to please its Arab crowed. I would like to see some references as such from a source like FoxNews for example so we can tell its not yet another hate file.

However, and not to party-poop, you can keep on flaming Israel for no reason, Arabs seem to enjoy it. Problem is for you, that no one with real influence really cares for you and your lies. So keep pleasing yourselfs for as long you wish with threads like this.

 

[DarkThinker]

Originally posted by: TheNewbie
OP, your reference is very weak, BBC is well known in its hostility towards Israel, it usually tends to bend facts or highlight insignificant crap to make Israel look bad to please its Arab crowed. I would like to see some references as such from a source like FoxNews for example so we can tell its not yet another hate file.

However, and not to party-poop, you can keep on flaming Israel for no reason, Arabs seem to enjoy it. Problem is for you, that no one with real influence really cares for you and your lies. So keep pleasing yourselfs for as long you wish with threads like this.

So an internationally acclaimed organization such as the BBC all the sudden is anti-Israeli just because they like to tell people what really is happening and then a Zionist-lobby infested American network such as Fox (which likes to show bias against certain presidential candidate(s) due to their lack of support for Israel) for crap's sake is the standard?? How about you be a logical person and give us an argument for your opinion? Point out the lies / bent facts in the articles for instance?