Israel Distances Itself From Muhammad Film; Actors say they were duped

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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Now, if I'd actually created that bumper sticker and placed it on my car, what do you think the chances are that one morning I'd find my tires slashed, my windows broken, or hate messages and threats placed on my windshield?

There are millions of people in this country who do something that someone else finds offensive everyday, but those who are offended don't go around looting and rioting and killing. And those who do are arrested and punished by the authorities. Nobody has a right to not be offended.

And many of you on this message board believe that anyone who displays a bumper sticker like that DESERVES to be punished for it.

Only idiots who hate freedom would think that way.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
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There is no right to not be offended. Why do idiots have such a hard time with that concept? Nobody has a right to not be offended. If they are offended by something, tough. Why should anyone here give up their right to free speech (or not exercise that right) because idiots and savages somewhere will be offended?

This thread is full of offended people that are ready to apologize and throw away the 1st amendment to appease.....

I call these people democrats.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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This thread is full of offended people that are ready to apologize and throw away the 1st amendment to appease.....

I call these people democrats.

Sadly this is true, with Hillary and obummer apologizing for people exercising their rights, and college professors proclaiming that the film maker should be arrested for doing something that causes idiots to go on a violent rampage half a world away.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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I am offended that all of you are offended.

In protest, I am going to cook some pork ribs and wash them down with rum and coke.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
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There are millions of people in this country who do something that someone else finds offensive everyday, but those who are offended don't go around looting and rioting and killing. And those who do are arrested and punished by the authorities. Nobody has a right to not be offended.



Only idiots who hate freedom would think that way.

You've ignored what I claimed in my previous post. There are plenty of people in America - the land of the free - who would attack my property if I used that bumper sticker. And if they knew where I lived, they'd probably throw rocks through my windows. And some, if given the chance, would attack me physically.

Do I think the percentage of such people in America is as high as in countries without a tradition of pluralism and freedom of expression? Of course not. But there are a lot of angry, intolerant people in even the most civilized society, including in America.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
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You've ignored what I claimed in my previous post. There are plenty of people in America - the land of the free - who would attack my property if I used that bumper sticker. And if they knew where I lived, they'd probably throw rocks through my windows. And some, if given the chance, would attack me physically.

Do I think the percentage of such people in America is as high as in countries without a tradition of pluralism and freedom of expression? Of course not. But there are a lot of angry, intolerant people in even the most civilized society, including in America.

Considering that ignorance is a main commodity in bumper stickers I'd say your point about "100%" is off a few decimal places. Probably more like 0.01%

Even then that is too high, but to use the example of "Piss Christ" how many died because of that? If I took an image of Mohammed and froze my urine over his face for all time and then proclaimed it as art would the result be the same? If the military had old bibles and burned them who would die?

There is not only a quantitative, but a qualitative difference. We do not accept violence for such acts. It may happen, but it isn't institutionalized. It isn't enshrined in our Constitution that religious freedom for any but one is punishable by death, imprisonment or perhaps all three.

I see in posts all sorts of equivalences made. All kinds of excuses made based on past evils done. If that were acceptable I could justify any action I make since a large part of my ancestry comes from those who walked the Trail of Tears. I could take your blood and you would justify and mitigate.

No, no more. What was done to us was wrong and there must be justice and consequences. Not mindless bombing, not an eye for eye revenge, but a response nonetheless going beyond "We're sorry this happened."

No more.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
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You've ignored what I claimed in my previous post. There are plenty of people in America - the land of the free - who would attack my property if I used that bumper sticker. And if they knew where I lived, they'd probably throw rocks through my windows. And some, if given the chance, would attack me physically.

Do I think the percentage of such people in America is as high as in countries without a tradition of pluralism and freedom of expression? Of course not. But there are a lot of angry, intolerant people in even the most civilized society, including in America.

Can you provide some examples of people getting killed in the US because someone somewhere said something that someone else found offensive? And, for bonus points, could you show us where such violence would not only be tolerated, but condoned by the authorities?

Pretending that someone getting ticked off and taking some individual action (like keying your car) is the same as a significant number in society mobilizing and getting violent over some perceived slight for something done in some other country is pathetic.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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http://abcnews.go.com/International...s-prophet-muhammad-film-17216586#.UFEUjVFvGmU

looks like a deliberate attempt to create more instability in the middle east. gee, i wonder who is going to benefit from that? :rolleyes:

Since last night I've been hearing the news discuss intelligence reports that say the embassy attack in Libya had nothing to do with the so-called "film" (more on that in a minute). The intelligence community is saying that the attacks were military in nature, not spontaneous protests that got out-of-hand. I saw reports that the embassy staff in Libya were killed in a rocket attack on their car, a rocket is hardly something you carry around in your back pocket just in case a 'protest' happens to pop up. Additionally, the safe house for the embassy staff was supposed to be a secret. That the assailants knew its location and were therefore able to intercept and ambush the embassy car shows intel and pre-planning, something far than a protest.

As to the so-called movie: I'm hearing only a movie trailer is found, not an actual movie. It only recently appeared and planning of the attack was done well before that. This attack looks to be related to the anniversary of 9/11, not the trailer.

We'll have to see if an actual movie does, in fact, exist. I also heard that no one in Hollywood - studios, producers, directors etc, outside of a few unknown 'actors' - has ever heard of the man or the film/project.

I also heard reports that the film maker, Sam Bacile, claims to be from Israel and immigrated here. However, the reporter stated that Dept of State (immigration etc.) claims that they have no records of this guy, none. No one by that name immigrated here etc. They claimed other database searches failed to turn anyone up by that name. It's as if he doesn't exist. I presume it's a fake name.

Fern
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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Actually that's easy.

You are being purposefully evasive and I understand that because your false equivalency of the effects of two religions require it. I believe that if a nation wants to have their government based on their religion that is inherent in the basic right of self determination. I understand that the majority of Christians and Muslims are peaceful. I also understand that Islam as practiced in many parts of the world carries a sentence of for infractions of belief, or by 21st century standards barbaric punishment. Now you can dance around that and you have, but I cannot disregard the facts of the matter so glibly to bend reality into a lie.

If the people of a nation decide that's how they want to live that is entirely their business. That does not mean I agree with it, but that is for them to deal with. As for myself I draw a line when that behavior is exported and other nations and people are attacked as a result. In that case retreating to religious freedom is invalid. They have taken that away from others or are attacking those who do not believe as they do. That is unacceptable, and if the Crusaders were alive today I'd say the same. They aren't.

If those who practice Islam do so peacefully at least in relation to other nations and faiths then I haven't a problem. You never saw me calling for a good nuking. You aren't dumb by any means, but don't pretend that all of us are and patronize by deceit. You don't need to convince the rational that those who live in the ME aren't deserving of blanket destruction.

Your right
I should not of replied so glibly to you. I respect your opinions and find you to be a very fair and intelligent poster.
I'm sorry
Actually I think this is the second time you have had to give me a shake, I will try not to make it 3 ;)

My post was a poke at capital punishment in general and that is a different topic

I also agree with most of what you posted, I don't understand what you meant by *I understand that because your false equivalency of the effects of two religions require it* though.

This thread is full of offended people that are ready to apologize and throw away the 1st amendment to appease.....

I call these people democrats.

Democrats? It looks to me like most of the people trying to get rid of freedom of religion are leaning to the right
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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I also agree with most of what you posted, I don't understand what you meant by *I understand that because your false equivalency of the effects of two religions require it* though.

I was beating up on you and I shouldn't have. My real point is that both cultures and religions have different aspects at this point in time and that cannot be ignored and the situation understood. Certainly Christianity had it's Inquisitions and Crusades for which I shall not attempt to justify. The problem of Islam as it is practiced and the consequences thereof remain. The Middle East version is tied to governmental rule, as in the days of the Holy Roman Empire. To challenge the Church meant death, something the governments of the day dare not interfere with. Likewise we have a culture which uses the power of it's religion and government to enforce the rules of the former by means I cannot accept, no more than the torture chamber of the Inquisition. That's where I disagree with those who try to make one like the other. In different times there is most decidedly an unsavory likeness, but it is today, not back then we have to deal with, and acceptance of violence upon others in the name of any religion is not something I can abide.

Even so, my definition of freedom is not democracy, since I believe that in the case of the US, democracy is far removed from freedom. Instead I value the concept of self determination. If the people of Egypt and other nations wish to live as they do then I accept if not approve. That ends when someone thinks that their rights extend to the domination of other peoples. I will not justify our actions of the various self interested plots which were intended to subjugate the ME for oil. They were an evil as well. I understand that our actions in deposing a democratically elected leader of Iran for British Petroleum was a causal link in extreme Islamic fundamentalism existing in the region. I'll go as far as to say that if Operation Ajax had never happened then neither would 9/11.

Even so, we are were we are, with Iran and Yemen now involved. There is a crisis coming and unless there is considerable thought as to how to prevent it other than despotism and force of arms then it's hard to see things getting much better.

The world is such a complex and interconnected place that it is impossible to foresee all ends, but the effort must be made, not platitudes and promises from politicians however well intended. They cut off other avenues of approach which does not meet standard party ideas and ideals. In America the marketplace of ideas has two vendors. I don't see that as a good thing. That's one reason I posted my ideas about energy elsewhere because it is a foundation of civilization. That's how I tend to look at things, not at the highest level of chaos, but the fundamental needs and desires common to people and civilizations. Think about tweaking one and follow it's effects outward and laterally to the other basics. Ahh well I digress, a common habit.

In short we need to recognize the immediate situation, remedy it, investigate the causes and act appropriately, in whatever means prudence dictates.

As far as the death penalty, I have real problems with it, but that is a somewhat separate issue.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,676
2,430
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No way at all Israel is involved in this. Their intelligence services are among the best, if not the very best, in the world. This is way too amateurish.

I also think people are being way too hard on the actors. I'd be hard pressed to distinguish a desert movie set in 0 AD Eygpt versus 600AD Saudi Arabia, especially if it was being done on the way cheap level. Remember too, the amazing lack of (what should be common) knowledge many of us Americans have. Ignorance is not the same as being a moron, there are plenty of highly educated morons around.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Jun 26, 2007
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Um... I think you would agree with me that at least 95% of the posters here don't know anything about a major world religion

I bet most of the posters here know quite a bit about the major world relgions.

I would bet you even know of a lot of examples in Judaism of Jews marrying even younger girls

Younger is not the same as child age - but you knew that, right? My sister is younger than her husband...but she was not a single digit midget when he married her.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Democrats? It looks to me like most of the people trying to get rid of freedom of religion are leaning to the right

To be fair, both sides of the aisle are trying to do it, but in different ways. If we go to extremes, we would say the conservatives are trying to remove the freedom to worship all religions except Christianity and liberals are trying to remove the freedom to worship all religions.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,596
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Maybe it was an October Surprise set up a month early by people who didn't know that terrorists have been planning something to occur on Sept. 11...

Who knows?
Last I heard they're still trying to figure out if the film was the sole cause of this attack or if a terrorist cell was planning attacks that would have occurred on Tuesday anyways.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
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Maybe it was an October Surprise set up a month early by people who didn't know that terrorists have been planning something to occur on Sept. 11...

Who knows?
Last I heard they're still trying to figure out if the film was the sole cause of this attack or if a terrorist cell was planning attacks that would have occurred on Tuesday anyways.

US and Libya are both saying this was planned.

In fact, a post on a Eve gaming board by one of the embassy personnel mentions that one of the guards was taking pictures of the embassy.

This was a deliberate attack coinciding with 9/11 yet using the movie as an excuse.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,596
475
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US and Libya are both saying this was planned.

In fact, a post on a Eve gaming board by one of the embassy personnel mentions that one of the guards was taking pictures of the embassy.

This was a deliberate attack coinciding with 9/11 yet using the movie as an excuse.

thanks for the update