Islamophobia masquerading as free speech

IdioticBuffoon

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Sep 11, 2005
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"The collective medieval Christian memory has been recycled, purged of eschatology and incorporated into a modern secularised rhetoric that goes unquestioned today."

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Much has been said here and everywhere else on the issue of these caricatures and what I have gathered so far is that there still exists a vast gap in our knowledge as citizens of the west and upholder of western values when it comes to Islam, the religion and the civilization. I was refered to this article by a moslem friend of mine on campus as we are covering this very issue in class on the perception of Islam in medieval Europe. I think the article brings up an issue that is very relevant today and that is our unwillingness to thoroughly understand Islam from an objective point of view .. for what it is worth, not by looking at moslems today and judging Islam by it.

It is human nature that what we fear and do not comprehend, we try to ignore, ridicule and simply remove from sight. No doubt such was the prevalent attitude of medieval Europe as any student of history would tell you when Islam swept across Europe in all its glory and grandeur. It can be argued that the concept of terrorism as we know it today did not exist back then and that it should be blamed for the perception of Islam that exists today. Still, modern terrorism is a very recent phenomenon. History provides plenty of evidence that even up until this plague of terrorism emerged on the global scene, the western world remained ignorant of Islam. Excepting the few who have put in the effort and dedicated their lives in truly understanding this great religion and its prophet, and have come to very much the same conclusion.

As the Dutch scholar Hurgronje put it: "The League of Nations founded by the prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity and human brotherhood on such universal foundations as to show candle to other nations ... the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done towards the realization of the idea of the League of Nations."

It is also important to note that Mahatma Ghandi, someone who we have great respect for in the west has said the following of Mohammed:

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidness, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle."

I think we should not judge an entire group and in reality a great portion of humanity today by the actions of a misguided few. Portraying a man who has brought the world so much good in the way as depicted in the caricatures is an affront to humanity.

We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed. Otherwise, WE will be the ones stuck in the past and not the Taliban and the Bin Ladens of the world. The following is a starting point:

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls. . . his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


Lamartine, HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277.
 

Proletariat

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Dec 9, 2004
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are there men greater than he?

Yes.

Their names are Jesus, Krishna and Buddha.

BTW Al-jazeera links are a bad idea here.
 

Cerb

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Aug 26, 2000
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You quoted and used the worst parts of the article. Props for that...

"Nothing happens in a vacuum. Since we are historical beings, we cannot be detached from our hermeneutical tradition and historical condition."

Now this is something that is important. The rest of the article, unfortunately, does nothing meaningful but attempt to appeal to sympathy, despite having a few good points.

"In the past as in the present, religion, culture and the politics of fear are placed at the service of the great games of dominance and mastery."

The two quotes there are everything useful in the article, and 90% of what is useful in any situation in which you look at what sheeple do for their masters, to keep them happy.

Fear is the problem over there. Fear is the problem over here. Islam has nothing to do with it. People trained to think 'power over others = self worth' are a large problem, as they have been for centuries. Religion is a good mask and scapegoat.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
"Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"[/i]

Lamartine, HISTOIRE DE LA TURQUIE, Paris, 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276-277.

Yes, many. I don't think that he is the greatest example of mankind.
 

IdioticBuffoon

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: Cerb
Fear is the problem over there. Fear is the problem over here. Islam has nothing to do with it. People trained to think 'power over others = self worth' are a large problem, as they have been for centuries. Religion is a good mask and scapegoat.

I agree. But the "sheeple" are what they are because they let themselves be. We cannot lay the blame squarely on the leaders. Right-wing parties across the world are gaining strength precisely due to this reason.
 

Cerb

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Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: Cerb
Fear is the problem over there. Fear is the problem over here. Islam has nothing to do with it. People trained to think 'power over others = self worth' are a large problem, as they have been for centuries. Religion is a good mask and scapegoat.

I agree. But the "sheeple" are what they are because they let themselves be. We cannot lay the blame squarely on the leaders. Right-wing parties across the world are gaining strength precisely due to this reason.
No, but blaming one side for being intolerant because the other side is isn't getting anywhere, either.
 

IdioticBuffoon

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: Proletariat
are there men greater than he?

Yes.

Their names are Jesus, Krishna and Buddha.

BTW Al-jazeera links are a bad idea here.

Indeed Jesus was a great man and so was Buddha. But it was only Mohammed who in actuality, in reality, established a system based on the principles of human freedom and equality. His example is absolutely unmatched in human history.

Nevertheless, such gradation is not the purpose of the thread. I would like to get your perspective on the article itself.
 

IdioticBuffoon

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: Cerb
Fear is the problem over there. Fear is the problem over here. Islam has nothing to do with it. People trained to think 'power over others = self worth' are a large problem, as they have been for centuries. Religion is a good mask and scapegoat.

I agree. But the "sheeple" are what they are because they let themselves be. We cannot lay the blame squarely on the leaders. Right-wing parties across the world are gaining strength precisely due to this reason.
No, but blaming one side for being intolerant because the other side is isn't getting anywhere, either.

Even though that is not what I am saying nor is that the point of the article or this thread. However, what you are saying is also true.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed.

um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

at least jesus christ was basically a decent person

I know enough about islam to realise it is a blight on humanity (moreso than christianity or buddhism)
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
Originally posted by: Cerb
Fear is the problem over there. Fear is the problem over here. Islam has nothing to do with it. People trained to think 'power over others = self worth' are a large problem, as they have been for centuries. Religion is a good mask and scapegoat.
I agree. But the "sheeple" are what they are because they let themselves be. We cannot lay the blame squarely on the leaders. Right-wing parties across the world are gaining strength precisely due to this reason.
No, but blaming one side for being intolerant because the other side is isn't getting anywhere, either.
Even though that is not what I am saying nor is that the point of the article or this thread. However, what you are saying is also true.
The article is saying that free speech is being is being used as a 'front' for pushing a 'fear Islam' agenda, as I read it. That it succeeds is evidence that we're still battling social problems we should have left behind centuries ago, IMO.
 

compuwiz1

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Oct 9, 1999
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With all the negativity toward Islam, I feel compelled to recognize that not all fit into one mold. I work with several Afghans, who just happen to be Muslim. It seems they work overtime to be better, kinder people, despite the image alot of people lump them into. These people I know are great. They treat me quite well, and I'm not Muslim, not even close. :)
 

Finality

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed.

um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

at least jesus christ was basically a decent person

I know enough about islam to realise it is a blight on humanity (moreso than christianity or buddhism)

First time I heard that....

Got any proof?
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: Finality
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed.

um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

at least jesus christ was basically a decent person

I know enough about islam to realise it is a blight on humanity (moreso than christianity or buddhism)

First time I heard that....

Got any proof?

proof of what?
 

Proletariat

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Dec 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: compuwiz1
With all the negativity toward Islam, I feel compelled to recognize that not all fit into one mold. I work with several Afghans, who just happen to be Muslim. It seems they work overtime to be better, kinder people, despite the image alot of people lump them into. These people I know are great. They treat me quite well, and I'm not Muslim, not even close. :)

Those Indians are greedy tho right
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: compuwiz1
With all the negativity toward Islam, I feel compelled to recognize that not all fit into one mold. I work with several Afghans, who just happen to be Muslim. It seems they work overtime to be better, kinder people, despite the image alot of people lump them into. These people I know are great. They treat me quite well, and I'm not Muslim, not even close. :)

Those Indians are greedy tho right

Where did I say Indian? And, you said both Indian and greedy. WTF is up with that?

Is it time for trolltariate to be banned again?

 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed.

um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

at least jesus christ was basically a decent person

I know enough about islam to realise it is a blight on humanity (moreso than christianity or buddhism)
From the current statement, it seems there are misconceptions about Islam and Prophet Mohammed. I don't want to turn this into a huge "Mohammed's Life" thread, but if you want to discuss this over PM I'm more than willing.
 

firewall

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Oct 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

:roll:

Well, that alone tells of your understanding of Islam.
 

Finality

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: Finality
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
We need to make a real effort to try to understand this religion and the man Mohammed.

um, mohammed was a sadistic war-mongering pedophile who raped a 7 year old girl.

at least jesus christ was basically a decent person

I know enough about islam to realise it is a blight on humanity (moreso than christianity or buddhism)

First time I heard that....

Got any proof?

proof of what?


Proof of what you wrote ie a quote from the Quran.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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"The collective medieval Christian memory has been recycled, purged of eschatology.."

I guess this is supposed to be a bad thing ?

 

StormRider

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Mar 12, 2000
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Originally posted by: compuwiz1
With all the negativity toward Islam, I feel compelled to recognize that not all fit into one mold. I work with several Afghans, who just happen to be Muslim. It seems they work overtime to be better, kinder people, despite the image alot of people lump them into. These people I know are great. They treat me quite well, and I'm not Muslim, not even close. :)


I have no problems with Muslims. I wouldn't be surprised if the nicest person in the world was a Muslim. But I do have a problem with Islam.

It's possible for a flawed belief system to produce good people. For example, I don't believe in hitting a child with a belt to discipline them. There are others who do. This doesn't mean that I think all children who are discipline this way grow up to be monsters. Most grow up to be well adjusted adults. It's just that I believe a higher percentage (compared to others who were not discinplined with a belt) might grow up to have problems as adults.

Same thing with Islam. Most Muslims are great people. But I think a higher percentage of them (compared to other religions) will grow up to be radical violent wackos and the evidence of the real world seem to support this.


""If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls. . . his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

As a non-Muslim, the fact that Islam uses the sword to forcefully convert non-believers is another thing that bothers me. Yes, Islam is founded on the principles of the unity of man -- only after everyone has been forcefully converted.
 

IdioticBuffoon

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Sep 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: StormRider
It's possible for a flawed belief system to produce good people. For example, I don't believe in hitting a child with a belt to discipline them. There are others who do. This doesn't mean that I think all children who are discipline this way grow up to be monsters. Most grow up to be well adjusted adults. It's just that I believe a higher percentage (compared to others who were not discinplined with a belt) might grow up to have problems as adults.

Same thing with Islam. Most Muslims are great people. But I think a higher percentage of them (compared to other religions) will grow up to be radical violent wackos and the evidence of the real world seem to support this.

The fact that there are over a billion muslims worldwide disproves this statement completely. The majority are NOT radical wackos and the great evidence supports this conclusion.


Originally posted by: StormRider
""If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls. . . his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.
Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

As a non-Muslim, the fact that Islam uses the sword to forcefully convert non-believers is another thing that bothers me. Yes, Islam is founded on the principles of the unity of man -- only after everyone has been forcefully converted.

Which moslem army went to Indonesia .. the most populous Islamic country on earth? Which legion of moslem armies went to Malaysia?

How many muslims are there in Spain after 800 years of muslim rule there? What's the majority of India consist of?

I think this misconception can be best dealth with by considering what historian De Lacy O'Leary says on the issue:

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."

ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.
 

firewall

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Oct 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: IdioticBuffoon
I think this misconception can be best dealth with by considering what historian De Lacy O'Leary says on the issue:

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated."

ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.

:thumbsup:
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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Islamophobia masquerading as free speech
The very concept of free speech is that we may not always agree with the message, or its intent.

It is also a chicken/egg debate, as Islamophobia perhaps would not be so pronounced if Islamic communities behaved...I don't know...a bit more reasonably in communicating their grievances against the Western world.