Islamic Sharia law arrives in Libya! Yay for the "Arab Spring".

[fskimospy]

Unfortunately. I know Arabs as individuals and as a society. The society remains no matter where they are geographically. It's a society that's based on respect out of fear, hierarchy and religion. Everything a tribal society is and a democratic one is not.

I'll take that as a 'no, I've never been to an Arab country'. I on the other hand, have. Don't you think it's perhaps a bit dangerous for you to hold such strong and absolute opinions about a culture you have never actually been in?

In Iraq it's even more complicated with Sunni, Shia and Kurdish sects fighting for control. Each of these religious groups is partitioned into tribes.

There is no individualism in the Arab culture. This notion simply does not exist. Democracy, where someone acts upon his personal convictions and ideas, does not and can not exist in this culture. There's a good reason why, centuries after the first democracies, there is not one democracy in the Arab world.

Ridiculous. People there operate on the basis of many identities, which is what I was trying to lead you to understand. The Kurds in the north of Iraq for example. They operate on familial identities, they also have tribal identities, a Kurdish national identity, etc, etc. The idea that they run everything on tribal allegiance is...well... false and ignorant.

Hizballah (now controlling Lebanon) can't be reasoned with. Iran can't be reasoned with. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt can't be reasoned with. You also can not reason with Taliban, Hamas or Al Qaeda. They are not corrupt and they do not care about your money. If they do, it's for their goals, not for their individual use. They want war with the infidels. Not now, and not immediately, but they are convinced they have the moral upper hand and they will eradicate the corrupt Western culture.

I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from, but they are fantastical. Of course you can reason with Iran, we reason with them all the time. (despite not having formal diplomatic relations, we often work with Iran on areas of mutual interest) Hamas can be and is reasoned with on any number of issues on a daily basis.

To be clear, you are just once again mistaking enemies for irrational and insane people. Just because someone is your enemy doesn't make them nuts, and you do yourself a disservice by thinking that way. It's a simplistic way to understand the world. It gives you easy answers, the only problem is that the answers are wrong.

The Liberals are played by the evil that is radical Islam. It is the most vile, dark, oppressive culture on earth right now, and liberals are cheering and championing it. It doesn't go 100 years back like Nazism, to the eras of racism and fascism, it goes back a 1000 years to eras before the Dark Ages. This is what these people practice, this is where they try to lead us.
I thought people like you would understand when this holy war came to your doorstep, as it did in 9/11, and the countless terrorism attempts involving Muslims afterwards. Apparently you were not impressed.

I spent the better part of a year of my life in and around Iraq because of what happened on September 11th, if you had spent a little time in the Middle East yourself you might actually know what you're talking about instead of painting Muslim nations and groups as cartoon supervillains. If you really want to effectively oppose Iran, Hamas, and the Taliban, you need to be able to understand who they are and what they think, not just blind yourself by thinking they are mindless evildoers who can't be reasoned with.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'll take that as a 'no, I've never been to an Arab country'. I on the other hand, have. Don't you think it's perhaps a bit dangerous for you to hold such strong and absolute opinions about a culture you have never actually been in?




Ridiculous. People there operate on the basis of many identities, which is what I was trying to lead you to understand. The Kurds in the north of Iraq for example. They operate on familial identities, they also have tribal identities, a Kurdish national identity, etc, etc. The idea that they run everything on tribal allegiance is...well... false and ignorant.



I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from, but they are fantastical. Of course you can reason with Iran, we reason with them all the time. (despite not having formal diplomatic relations, we often work with Iran on areas of mutual interest) Hamas can be and is reasoned with on any number of issues on a daily basis.

To be clear, you are just once again mistaking enemies for irrational and insane people. Just because someone is your enemy doesn't make them nuts, and you do yourself a disservice by thinking that way. It's a simplistic way to understand the world. It gives you easy answers, the only problem is that the answers are wrong.



I spent the better part of a year of my life in and around Iraq because of what happened on September 11th, if you had spent a little time in the Middle East yourself you might actually know what you're talking about instead of painting Muslim nations and groups as cartoon supervillains. If you really want to effectively oppose Iran, Hamas, and the Taliban, you need to be able to understand who they are and what they think, not just blind yourself by thinking they are mindless evildoers who can't be reasoned with.

He can't be reasoned with. He has become what he fears.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Well, being that I'm originally from Israel, and my original place of birth was surrounded by Arab villages (which we had excellent relations with), and that I spent much, much more than a year dealing with Arabs, I think I know them rather well.

I have no idea where you are getting your ideas from, but they are fantastical. Of course you can reason with Iran, we reason with them all the time. (despite not having formal diplomatic relations, we often work with Iran on areas of mutual interest) Hamas can be and is reasoned with on any number of issues on a daily basis.

To be clear, you are just once again mistaking enemies for irrational and insane people. Just because someone is your enemy doesn't make them nuts, and you do yourself a disservice by thinking that way. It's a simplistic way to understand the world. It gives you easy answers, the only problem is that the answers are wrong.

I never said they are illogical or insane. On the contrary, they make us look illogical and insane. They pursue their goals with dedication, discipline and coherency you will not find anywhere in democracies. It's just that our set of values and theirs are completely incompatible.

 

[rchiu]

Well looking at how the rebels paraded Godhafi's dead body (yeah I am sure there is something in Islam about the treatment of dead body), they are just replacing one barbarian for another.

Sadly US is somehow involved again and if anything bad happens in that country in the future, people is gonna say the US and the west caused it.

 

[trenchfoot]

Meh, when the oil is gone, all that's going to be left of the middle east is what's been there before oil became the addictive drug it is at the moment, except of course, they'll be using all the latest expensive weaponry and technology we will be eagerly selling them until the whole region is a radioactive wasteland.

Interesting to ponder what else will happen when the oil runs out everywhere else.

 

[Macamus Prime]

What do you think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq/Afghanistan? We are just paving the way for extremists to show up after we leave.

 

[feralkid]

Well, being that I'm originally from Israel, and my original place of birth was surrounded by Arab villages (which we had excellent relations with), and that I spent much, much more than a year dealing with Arabs, I think I know them rather well.

That's a rather poor platform from which to judge billions of people, wouldn't you agree?

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

I'm sure this will turn out just fine. Islam is a very peaceful religion that solves issues by democratic means.

 

[matt0611]

Lulz, who didn't see this coming?

 

[umbrella39]

Nothing brings out the heat like a good old Monday morning Islam FUD CJ...

 

[fskimospy]

Well, being that I'm originally from Israel, and my original place of birth was surrounded by Arab villages (which we had excellent relations with), and that I spent much, much more than a year dealing with Arabs, I think I know them rather well.

I've spent much more than a year 'dealing' with arabs as well, and it's pretty clear that you don't know them rather well from what you posted. I'm guessing you left Israel when you were young.

I never said they are illogical or insane. On the contrary, they make us look illogical and insane. They pursue their goals with dedication, discipline and coherency you will not find anywhere in democracies. It's just that our set of values and theirs are completely incompatible.

You said they cannot be reasoned with, and there's no evidence to support this. They also don't pursue their goals with any kind of special dedication, discipline, or coherency. (that would be pretty clear if you check out Arab nations' foreign and domestic policies on average) It's pretty clear to me that you've invented a boogeyman in your head.

Do everyone a favor, yourself most of all. Go learn something about Arabs with an open mind instead of one that is convinced they are cartoon supervillains. You will not only realize how silly your characterization of them is, but if you wish to continue to oppose the goals of Arab nations (and Iran, even though they aren't Arab), you will be able to do so more effectively.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I've spent much more than a year 'dealing' with arabs as well, and it's pretty clear that you don't know them rather well from what you posted. I'm guessing you left Israel when you were young.

Wrong.

You said they cannot be reasoned with, and there's no evidence to support this. They also don't pursue their goals with any kind of special dedication, discipline, or coherency. (that would be pretty clear if you check out Arab nations' foreign and domestic policies on average) It's pretty clear to me that you've invented a boogeyman in your head.

Do everyone a favor, yourself most of all. Go learn something about Arabs with an open mind instead of one that is convinced they are cartoon supervillains. You will not only realize how silly your characterization of them is, but if you wish to continue to oppose the goals of Arab nations (and Iran, even though they aren't Arab), you will be able to do so more effectively.

I'd like to hear your account of the Arab culture, then.

 

[a777pilot]

Bottom line, they dumped a repressive dictator and are going to replace him with a repressive religious dictator.

This^

This so called Arab Spring is all about getting rid of secular governments so that islamic governments could replace them.

Welcome to the new world order of the 21st Caliphate.

We can all thanks this fool, Bobo, the Post Turtle, for this disastrous turn of events.

 

[fskimospy]

I'd like to hear your account of the Arab culture, then.

I would never be so foolish as to attempt to present a single account of the culture of a region of about 400,000,000 people spread over vast and disparate geography with wildly varying historical roots.

That was my entire point. Your portrayal of Arabs is delusional and hilariously generalized into a wide ranging negative stereotype.

 

[SamurAchzar]

The culture is pretty similar. Very powerful religious belief, patriarchal, low literacy rates, low industrialization rates, low GDP, no democratic values, rejection of individualism, rule of force, lies and deception.
This description holds true from Libya in the west to Iraq in the east.

Maybe you are correct and they are ripe for democracy and human values. I say there will be none. The like their culture, not yours.

 

[fskimospy]

The culture is pretty similar. Very powerful religious belief, patriarchal, low literacy rates, low industrialization rates, low GDP, no democratic values, rejection of individualism, rule of force, lies and deception.
This description holds true from Libya in the west to Iraq in the east.

Maybe you are correct and they are ripe for democracy and human values. I say there will be none. The like their culture, not yours.

I never said they were ripe for democracy and human values, I said that saying Libya would be a theocracy off of one newspaper article was silly. I then took issue with your attempt to paint the entire Middle East as one culturally contiguous zone.

Just a quick note on how easily your attempts to do this are debunked, you say that they all share 'low literacy rates' when countries like Libya, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, and others are close to or above 90% literacy, and countries like Yemen are around a 50% literacy rate. You lump them all together as 'low literacy'. Likewise, PPP per capita GDP varies hugely from country to country, yet you think they are all 'low gdp'.

I'm not even getting into your whole culture wide 'lies and deception' (which is just bizarre), I'm talking about basic facts that you hold which are clearly wrong.

 

[sandorski]

The choice was pretty simple:

1) Support the People of these nations against a brutal Dictator and in Libya's case, a supporter of past Terrorism against the West.

2) Support the brutal Dictators of these nations against the People wanting a better life.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I never said they were ripe for democracy and human values, I said that saying Libya would be a theocracy off of one newspaper article was silly. I then took issue with your attempt to paint the entire Middle East as one culturally contiguous zone.

Just a quick note on how easily your attempts to do this are debunked, you say that they all share 'low literacy rates' when countries like Libya, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, and others are close to or above 90% literacy, and countries like Yemen are around a 50% literacy rate. You lump them all together as 'low literacy'. Likewise, PPP per capita GDP varies hugely from country to country, yet you think they are all 'low gdp'.

I'm not even getting into your whole culture wide 'lies and deception' (which is just bizarre), I'm talking about basic facts that you hold which are clearly wrong.

Literacy rates below 90% are considered low. See here, 93% is about the cutoff between industrialized world and the rest.

GDP per capita is also absurdly low, and if you will neutralize the effects of oil on some of Arab economies you'll get a grim picture. Libya and Saudi Arabia GDP is nearly entirely oil dependent. 90% of the Saudi exports is petroleum and its derivatives.

GDP per capita:

Saudi Arabia $16,267
Lebanon $10,041
Libya $9,957
Algeria $4,366
Morocco $2,861
Syria $2,823
Egypt $2,808
Iraq $2,531
Yemen $1,284

For countries spread over such a large region, they are strikingly similar.

 

[fskimospy]

Literacy rates below 90% are considered low. See here, 93% is about the cutoff between industrialized world and the rest.

GDP per capita is also absurdly low, and if you will neutralize the effects of oil on some of Arab economies you'll get a grim picture. Libya and Saudi Arabia GDP is nearly entirely oil dependent. 90% of the Saudi exports is petroleum and its derivatives.

GDP per capita:

Saudi Arabia $16,267
Lebanon $10,041
Libya $9,957
Algeria $4,366
Morocco $2,861
Syria $2,823
Egypt $2,808
Iraq $2,531
Yemen $1,284

For countries spread over such a large region, they are strikingly similar.

Who cares what the cutoff between the industrialized world and the rest is? On what judgment do you consider 90% to be 'low'? Is there some official source for this? Regardless, you were attempting to lump countries with 90%+ literacy rates and those with 50% literacy rates together as 'low literacy' countries, and that's ridiculous.

I don't know why you were using GDP per capita as opposed to PPP GDP per capita. Is there a reason? Yes, economies of most Arab states are highly resource dependent. So? Even if we're using your unadjusted GDP per capita rates (and this is a terrible idea), you are trying to say that countries are 'strikingly similar' when one has more than ten times the GDP per capita of another.

You really need to get your basic facts straight before you continue to opine on what 'Arabs think'.

 

[lothar]

The choice was pretty simple:

1) Support the People of these nations against a brutal Dictator and in Libya's case, a supporter of past Terrorism against the West.

2) Support the brutal Dictators of these nations against the People wanting a better life.

3) Do nothing.
Anytime the US does something they always get blamed and accused of imperialism, invasion because of oil, etc...Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
Both Russia and China sat on their asses during the Libya operation and no one is blaming sqat on them regarding Libya. Why can't we be passive like them?

Do you feel the same about North Korea? Syria? Iran? Zimbabwe?
Should we do option #1 or option #2 for those countries listed? Why or why not?

 

[a777pilot]

The choice was pretty simple:

1) Support the People of these nations against a brutal Dictator and in Libya's case, a supporter of past Terrorism against the West.

2) Support the brutal Dictators of these nations against the People wanting a better life.

You sure have a very limited veiw of the world.

 

[a777pilot]

3) Do nothing.
Anytime the US does something they always get blamed and accused of imperialism, invasion because of oil, etc...Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
Both Russia and China sat on their asses during the Libya operation and no one is blaming sqat on them regarding Libya. Why can't we be passive like them?

Do you feel the same about North Korea? Syria? Iran? Zimbabwe?
Should we do option #1 or option #2 for those countries listed? Why or why not?

....what about bombing China?

 

[fskimospy]

3) Do nothing.
Anytime the US does something they always get blamed and accused of imperialism, invasion because of oil, etc...Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
Both Russia and China sat on their asses during the Libya operation and no one is blaming sqat on them regarding Libya. Why can't we be passive like them?

Do you feel the same about North Korea? Syria? Iran? Zimbabwe?
Should we do option #1 or option #2 for those countries listed? Why or why not?

It wasn't possible politically in America to do nothing. Imagine what the internal reaction would have been if Obama allowed the Lockerbie Bomber to slaughter thousands and thousands of people fighting for freedom against an oppressive dictator.

At the time I thought the air campaign was the best bet out of a set of terrible options for the US, and I stand by that one. (it did work out considerably better than I thought it would have from a military standpoint however)

 

[xBiffx]

It wasn't possible politically in America to do nothing. Imagine what the internal reaction would have been if Obama allowed the Lockerbie Bomber to slaughter thousands and thousands of people fighting for freedom against an oppressive dictator.

At the time I thought the air campaign was the best bet out of a set of terrible options for the US, and I stand by that one. (it did work out considerably better than I thought it would have from a military standpoint however)

Too bad that excuse didn't work for Bush (either one) when dealing with Saddam. How the left shit all over that decision. Do nothing was the mantra of some then.

 

[SamurAchzar]

You really need to get your basic facts straight before you continue to opine on what 'Arabs think'.

Well we shall soon see whose understanding of the Arab world is closer to reality.