Islamberg, New York: "You can hear gunfire up there"

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BoberFett
When they're found guilty of crimes shut them down and lock up the perpetrators. Until then, leave them alone. They shouldn't be treated differently than any other militia group exercising their right to keep and bear arms, their right to free association, and their right to freedom from unreasonable searches.

To me, the first thing this illustrates is the difference between using law enforcement v. military as a tool to combat terrorism.

As BoberFett's posts hints at, under law enforcement we generally have to wait until AFTER the crime is committed. How often do we see stories about women with restraining orders afraid for their lives being turned away by the police only to be murdered as they feared?

As far as waiting until they do something illegal - the article suggest (small) explosives are being detonated. That's big-time illegal, and should serve as grounds for an investigation, search warrents etc. Unfortunately, while the police/FBI would have no trouble investigating us, the ACLU etc (as others have pointed out) likely stand ready with lawyers to file suits if the FBI gets a bit zealous in any way.

Fern

Watching Bill O'Reilly does not make you an expert on terrorism. And while there are certainly cases where the military is needed, by far the most effective way to fight terrorism is with the police and intelligence organizations. 9/11 could have been stopped by a handful of cops in the right place at the right time, and the military is a spectacularly clumsy and inefficient way to fight small groups of terrorists.

But I have to say, your mindreading abilities are really quite impressive... :roll:

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: 1prophet
Good thing they didn't rename the compound to Mt. Carmel, and the leader to David Koresh because then the feds would move in.

Or better yet good thing their leader hasn't started molesting little girls, or has been illegally buying firearms from the black market, or made a public threats to bring upon the "end days" if the FBI or ATF come a knocking.

The plan was to inspect for weapons using a massive public show of force with news reporters accompaning the ATF not to save children, with little evidence about anything else. In fact David Koresh could have been picked up in town many times previous to the raid.



<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/9.html">Nevertheless, there was no doubt that the initiating ATF raid was ill planned and completely unnecessary. Koresh could have been arrested peacefully away from the compound while a search was activated. Even if the ATF firmly believed that only an element of surprise would have allowed the plan to succeed, once that surprise was lost, they should have stopped and prepared for something else. There was little evidence of awareness of what the Davidians were all about, and it was clear that a paramilitary maneuver simply to inspect some guns was overkill. In a videotape for the History Channel, entitled "Cults," journalist Mike Wallace sternly points out that there were many people to blame for what happened to the Branch Davidians inside the compound, not just them, and there might never be complete clarity on the issue.

The ATF made another suspicious decision as well. On May 12, less then a month after the incident, they bulldozed the site. In other words, if there were any clues remaining after the fire that might have provided information as to what took place, they were now beyond use.</a>

WTF is your point?

At least the people who are running the camp in New York (whatever they may be doing or not doing) are smart enough not to want to be observed and keep everything secret no thanks to incidents like Waco Texas.

Nice way of cherry picking a article. There were a lot of accusations from former members prior to the raid of David's indiscretion with little children in the compound along with other abuses. There is a telephone recorded conversation with an FBI negotiator during the siege in which David freely admits that the bible gave him the right to claim any of the young girls there in his compound a bride. The initial raid was about illegal fire arm purchases and sales but the don't you for one second think that they were not going to use that to further investigate the claims made by former members about alleged abuse. They needed a reason to go there and the hoarding and selling of illegal unregistered weapons was all they needed.

Did the ATF make mistakes with their initial contact with this cult yes ! Yet they did not cause the death of those people. David Koresh and his cult followers killed themselves. They could of easily surrender and walked away at any point and time. They could of easily of let their children go along with the women. David Koresh and his cult followers are not heroes or martyrs. David was a sick a-hole with a death wish ala.....Jim Jones. How about you post the whole entire article before I decide to do so myself?

1)I posted the conclusion since many here prefer cliff notes, the entire article is linked for those who wish to read it all like you have.

2)

David Koresh and his cult followers are not heroes or martyrs. David was a sick a-hole with a death wish ala.....Jim Jones.

Islamberg is a branch of Muslims of the Americas Inc., a tax-exempt organization formed in 1980 by Pakistani cleric Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, who refers to himself as "the sixth Sultan Ul Faqr," Gilani, has been directly linked by court documents to Jamaat ul-Fuqra or "community of the impoverished," an organization that seeks to "purify" Islam through violence.
Though primarily based in Lahore, Pakistan, Jamaat ul-Fuqra has operational headquarters in New York and openly recruits through various social service organizations in the U.S., including the prison system. Members live in hamaats or compounds, such as Islamberg, where they agree to abide by the laws of Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which are considered to be above local, state and federal authority.

Same but different? Or does it depend on who is the accuser and who is the accused?

3)

The initial raid was about illegal fire arm purchases and sales but the don't you for one second think that they were not going to use that to further investigate the claims made by former members about alleged abuse.

Did you know in the state of New York a DEC (department of conservation) officer can lawfully enter the land since it is near a watershed without a warrant and bring other officers from other agencies to further investigate other accusations, would you agree with such an action or would you call it a fishing expedition?

But I guess if your doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

4)

Yet they did not cause the death of those people. David Koresh and his cult followers killed themselves. They could of easily surrender and walked away at any point and time. They could of easily of let their children go along with the women

And I am sure if a firefight ensues and many die it would be the fault of the accused since all they would have to do is lay down their arms and surrender.