ISIS captors cared little about religion, says former hostage

[ivwshane]

This is why reflexive reactions are not smart. In order to defeat your enemy you have to know them first. Religion is being used as a means to an end, it's not the end itself. To defeat ISIS the US needs to engage in a war of propaganda and I think the killing of a Jordanian pilot is a perfect rallying point.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/intl_world/amanpour-didier-francois/

 

[cabri]

Propaganda only works when you are attacking a concept.

What is the concept that drives ISIS?

 

[Jaskalas]

Propaganda is a standard tool for all wars, but it's for third party consumption. The primary combatants still need to be killed.

 

[ivwshane]

Propaganda only works when you are attacking a concept.

What is the concept that drives ISIS?

Did you read the article?

 

[ivwshane]

Propaganda is a standard tool for all wars, but it's for third party consumption. The primary combatants still need to be killed.

How do you kill an ideology? ISIS doesn't have a set number of soldiers nor is the number of supporters it has a fixed number. Even if you were to kill every current militant the war wouldn't suddenly be over, there will be more people to take their place.

 

[cabri]

Did you read the article?

And the article provides no clues.

Do you have some?

 

[ivwshane]

And the article provides no clues.

Do you have some?

Yeah, it's right here in the article you read:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/intl_world/amanpour-didier-francois/

 

[raildogg]

This is rather sad. People are surprised that people don't actually follow religion? This is true for 99.9999% of people. They wear the badge of religion but follow nothing.

Welcome to organized religion.

A true Muslim wouldn't call himself a Muslim. A true Christian would not try to convert others. A true Hindu would not distort the meaning of this great religion. On and on.

If this world had true religious people (not the organized religion types) I doubt the world would be what it is.

 

[shira]

Yeah, it's right here in the article you read:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/intl_world/amanpour-didier-francois/

You're totally wrong. The article doesn't say ANYTHING about what the ISIS fighters believe. There was a vague statement about how the guards discussed politics:

"There was never really discussion about texts or -- it was not a religious discussion. It was a political discussion."

"It was more hammering what they were believing than teaching us about the Quran. Because it has nothing to do with the Quran."

Since you're so sure this article contains details about what ISIS believes, perhaps you can quote the specific beliefs from the article.

 

[rudder]

Propaganda only works when you are attacking a concept.

What is the concept that drives ISIS?

Ivwshane must have missed the second paragraph....

When ISIS held him in an Aleppo hospital, he routinely heard and saw the aftermath of his captors' torture of local Syrians and Iraqis who fell afoul of their hardline rules

Those hardline rules being ISIS' version of sharia law.

So this white westerner was not offered a Quran and was beaten regularly. Seems to me the captors just did not give a shit about him and was keeping him around for some sort of payoff.

 

[Exophase]

Not talking about Islam with their prisoners or motivating them to convert doesn't mean that they're not religious or not motivated by religion. It could just mean that they're not interested in the spiritual well being of people they clearly have little regard for.

 

[raildogg]

Propaganda is a standard tool for all wars, but it's for third party consumption. The primary combatants still need to be killed.

Yes, this is it. Religion is abuse by people on a daily basis. The religious leaders, the followers and everyone else abuses it every single day. Organized religion is different from the real Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

Wasn't it said in the Bible that one should pray in private than in front of others?

 

[ivwshane]

You're totally wrong. The article doesn't say ANYTHING about what the ISIS fighters believe. There was a vague statement about how the guards discussed politics:



Since you're so sure this article contains details about what ISIS believes, perhaps you can quote the specific beliefs from the article.

I didn't say anything about what ISIS believes, so ignoring that straw man:

"He always tries to push the Sunni tribes, the Bedouins, to fight against the Shiite, or the Yazidi, or the Christians. And they trying to play communities one against the others. That's how he survives. That's how he recruits."

"He is using, of course, those young guys coming from Europe or coming from all over the place. But it's only one part of his organization. The strongest parts of his organization are the tribes, the local Sunni tribes."

 

[ivwshane]

Not talking about Islam with their prisoners or motivating them to convert doesn't mean that they're not religious or not motivated by religion. It could just mean that they're not interested in the spiritual well being of people they clearly have little regard for.

So when ISIS says, convert or die it means what exactly?

http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly-news/isis-tells-iraqi-christians-to-convert-or-die-329118275734

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, this is it. Religion is abuse by people on a daily basis. The religious leaders, the followers and everyone else abuses it every single day. Organized religion is different from the real Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.

Wasn't it said in the Bible that one should pray in private than in front of others?

It also says not to idol worship and yet billions of people have crosses on their walls, necks, churches, all to which they pray to. Most people who "practice" their religion are doing it wrong

 

[Exophase]

So when ISIS says, convert or die it means what exactly?

http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly-news/isis-tells-iraqi-christians-to-convert-or-die-329118275734

It means they care little about religion, of course!

Just because they (or specifically, these guards) didn't care about converting their prisoners doesn't mean they don't care about anyone. It could be that they hold those people living there to a different standard than a captured French journalist, maybe seeing them as more capable of redemption.

And the article says that he probably would have been killed under normal circumstances, just like his cell-mate Foley was, so instead of "convert or we'll kill you" it was just "we'll kill you."

 

[1prophet]

Propaganda only works when you are attacking a concept.

What is the concept that drives ISIS?

Money, cut off their funding and they will go bye bye like all other mercenary armies.

 

[cabri]

Money, cut off their funding and they will go bye bye like all other mercenary armies.

Some amount of their funding is self perpetuated. As documented, robbery, extortion, kidnapping as well as oil sales.

How are you going to kill funding from Arab entities that presently support them?

 

[drifter106]

its like lymphomAa cancer. it will hide in the body and come back. look at their history over there. this chit has been going on for centuries. their have numerous wars and only now it it prevalent to us because it is happening now.

 

[Newell Steamer]

If ISIS was using machine guns made out of pork and they wore t-shirts that said "Fuck Mohammed", Islamaphobes would still consider them Muslims.

 

[ivwshane]

Religion is just a tool, just look at the Republican Party, they don't practice what they preach but it helps them get elected by preaching.

 

[Fern]

This is why reflexive reactions are not smart. In order to defeat your enemy you have to know them first. Religion is being used as a means to an end, it's not the end itself. To defeat ISIS the US needs to engage in a war of propaganda and I think the killing of a Jordanian pilot is a perfect rallying point.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/intl_world/amanpour-didier-francois/

We know a lot more about ISIS than you seem to think.

The Sunni versus Shia conflicted is rooted in their religion: Islam.

When your religion is also your govt, talk of politics IS talk about religion.

ISIS is more pragmatic and obviously more brutal than the others (AQ, Taliban or Muslim brotherhood). ISIS has clear material objective: Money, land and power.

ISIS more mafia-like than the others. Theft, kidnapping, taxing - whatever - they're much more about 'The Money' than the others.

ISIS pays their fighters. Estimates of their revenue vary from $1-4 million per day. And it seems to me that they are actively trying to grow that revenue stream to advance their (earthly) objectives.

I'm not sure why think you propaganda will be successful, or who it is to be aimed at, or why we - The Great Satan - could possibly be seen as a legitimate source for 'true info' on Islam by Muslims.

Yeah, I think we need to know our enemy. No, I don't think propaganda will win over money+power and perks like sex slaves etc.

This has been amusing: ISIS burns somebody to death and many liberals respond with a version of "We need to talk more" or let's just re-name them ("Daesh") so they don't seem as scary. Perception is what really counts, no?

Fern

 

[shira]

I didn't say anything about what ISIS believes, so ignoring that straw man:

You initially said:

To defeat ISIS the US needs to engage in a war of propaganda

In response, the point made and the question asked was:

Propaganda only works when you are attacking a concept.

What is the concept that drives ISIS?

And you replied:

Did you read the article?

And in reply, you were told:

And the article provides no clues.

Do you have some?

And you replied:

Yeah, it's right here in the article you read:

So you're supposed to tell us what concept ISIS is pushing that the U.S. can wage an effective propaganda war against. And and you told us it's in the article. And all you can say is that groups are being pitted against each other. That is not a "concept."

 

[ivwshane]

You initially said:

In response, the point made and the question asked was:

And you replied:

And in reply, you were told:



And you replied:

So you're supposed to tell us what concept ISIS is pushing that the U.S. can wage an effective propaganda war against. And and you told us it's in the article. And all you can say is that groups are being pitted against each other. That is not a "concept."

That's not a concept? Ok I guess if you say so. Lol!

 

[shira]

That's not a concept? Ok I guess if you say so. Lol!

I agree that for you it's a concept. Just like ketchup was a vegetable for Reagan.